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Local Talkback
Talkback is for the residents and businesses in Liphook to voice their views and opinions about local issues and events.

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Labour pensions
- Not impressed (3rd Jun 2024 - 13:51:24)

Looks like the Labour Party will raid the good old pensioners again and squeeze them again. Remove some of the benefits on tax on their pensions that they have already paid tax on . Suppose pensioners are an easy target not like all the union members that can go on strike for huge pay rises. So here we go again going back to the dark days.

Re: Labour pensions
- AF (3rd Jun 2024 - 14:33:48)

Well Labour have got form for this. Gordon Brown did it in 1997 and destroyed thousands of company pension schemes, which the government then had to bail out due to their own economic incompetence. He then sold all the UK gold stocks when gold was at historic low rate.
Lets face it the Labour party are incapable of handling the economy and have proved their inability on numerous occasions.
Of course the labour will win this election and probably the next and will once again make very poor decisions on the economy for the conservatives to come and sort out.

Re: Labour pensions
- Jim (3rd Jun 2024 - 14:44:25)

Under the conservatives, UK national debt has quadrupled to £2.6 trillion, which needs to be paid back with interest.

How would you raise the money? Or are you just a moaner with no solutions?

Re: Labour pensions
- Sam (3rd Jun 2024 - 22:09:31)

All parties are no different, don’t nail your colours onto one of them for life, it’s not a football team your voting for…

We need to show that democracy works and stick a very hard boot into the conservatives to teach them a lesson that we won’t put up with how they have ran the country this last 15 odd years, it’s an utter shambles, with Liz Truss being the calamity comedy highlight of almost taking the economy back to the Stone Age in just a few weeks.

It’s not a question of red or blue anymore, it’s a question of we won’t stand for it and let’s give someone else a go for the current crew have had a good run and been abject terrible

Re: Labour pensions
- DB (4th Jun 2024 - 12:46:21)

How about an alternate perspective.

The elephant in the room is that state pensions are a ponzi scheme. Any NI collected is used to pay pensioners at the time, so you need an infinitely growing tax take, which usually means workforce to support them.

Even if they weren't a Ponzi scheme, most pensioners take out far more than they ever contributed. If someone retired in 2000 they would have collected just over £119,700 in pension by the end of this year, to have contributed that much in NI they would have to have earned around £100,000 each year they worked. This likely accounts for less than 1% of all pensioners.

To cut it another way, to receive the current state pension from a private pension, you'd have to have saved up about £180,000.

So we've established pensions aren't sustainable, and most pensioners under the current system will get far more back than they ever put in. Now what?

We shouldn't make this demographic x vs demographic y, as that's the divide and conquer most rulers want, it does ultimately boil down to something has to give. We either reduce pension amounts, tax pensions more, tax workers more, tax something else more, or reduce funding somewhere.
On the tax side with some workers already hitting marginal rates approaching 70% there may not be much more blood to squeeze out of that stone.

Which of these options you prefer probably comes down to your own self interest.

Fact check. In 2000 the average life expectancy for males was 75 and females was 80. So, 10 years and 20 years of pension respectively. In 2000 the single person pension was £67.50 per week, £3,510 per year. On average a male would take around £35,000 out of the state pension (excluding increases). I'm not sure how many female retirees in 2000 got the full state pension.

Re: Labour pensions
- Pensioner (4th Jun 2024 - 18:11:19)

Don’t know where he gets his figures from I think the editor is more to the mark. And what about all the pensioners that pass away after a year or two or before they draw their pensions. My wife had six months after a lifetime of paying in no the culprits are the unions demanding huge wages quite unnecessary when workers are already getting a good wage.We are in for a rough ride if the labour get in with a large majority the unions have that Angela Rayner in their pockets and she loves the unions so Mr Keir Starmer will be a puppet and everything will go to the dogs.

Re: Labour pensions
- Rich (4th Jun 2024 - 19:16:12)

They have had 14 years of abject failure and farce, will it be more of the same? Will we indicate to them we are thick and stupid and will simply bend over as the Tories crash the economy and line their Eton mates pockets with dodgy deals and selling off critical services.

It’s time for a change, it’s time to hand out a lesson, a big lesson that the electorate will not put up with failure. This election is about justice and a lesson to the Tories, democracy matters and it’s time to hand out some punishment.

Both main parties are nothing like the same parties from years ago, the tories today are not the same as thatcher, and labour isn’t the same as Blair or previous.

Get them out, eliminate the Tories, every party will understand we won’t put up with it and they need to improve

Re: Labour pensions
- Not impressed (4th Jun 2024 - 21:54:57)

Don’t hold your breath RICH the same old labour are back unions in charge you see strikes public services gone to pot rubbish not collected. And the worst thing they will endeavour to drag us back into the dreaded EU at a huge cost they will hammer us because we have done so well out and they hate that .

Re: Labour pensions
- DB (5th Jun 2024 - 06:43:56)

In response to the fact check, my figures on amount taken were based on the actual figures for each year, so included the increases. I'll share the 5, 10, 15, 20 and 24 years numbers here for transparency.

5 - £23,639.20
10 - £47,307.00
15 - £75,844.60
20 - £95,388.80
24 - £119,701.40

I concede that 24 years was a long retirement period, I just picked it to use the tear 2000 as a cut off.

If we are working off averages take the current UK median salary of £35,000 (rounded up by about £100) the NI contributions would be £71,760 over a 40 year period, so using that model any retirement just over 14 years would be a net deficit. However in reality salaries would have been lower as we go back, so the number would be lower.
I'd assume it's around 10 years, but I have no data to back that up and I don't fancy going down the rabbit hole of finding out NI contributions by the average person for year from 1960-2000 though.

Re: Labour pensions
- Not impressed (5th Jun 2024 - 10:34:13)

The other point is pensioners in this country are way behind other countries in amounts . The Labour Party wants to take more money from us the state pension is not a living pension when you see the the level working people have to start paying tax . And also if your lucky enough to have a private pension you have already paid tax on the subscriptions it’s time the threshold on paying tax was raised to a much higher level for pensioners..

Re: Labour pensions
- D (5th Jun 2024 - 11:00:22)

Jim, two suggestions:- The self employed pay the full rate of national insurance, and parents feed their own children instead of the council tax payer having to do so.

Re: Labour pensions
- Sam (5th Jun 2024 - 11:28:10)

Sunaks utter lies regarding Tax, did he actually think he could lie and claim the Treasury proof it, he’s been found out today by the Treasury.

Bare faced lies just like Boris throughout, it’s 14 years of lies which a short exception of one period of total stupidity with Liz Truss who’s mistakes everyone is still paying for.

Time to go

Re: Labour pensions
- Jen (5th Jun 2024 - 16:24:35)

@not impressed

"And also if your lucky enough to have a private pension you have already paid tax on the subscriptions"

That is incorrect. Pension contributions are tax exempt, unless you pay in more than £40k annually or more than 100% of your income if you earn less than £40k.

Pension funds are also exempt from income tax (for example, on dividends) and capital gains tax while invested. A pension fund is a tax free "wrapper" for your investments for the future, similar to an ISA. The big differences between ISAs and pensions are that withdrawals from an ISA are not "income" and are therefore free from income tax, whereas a withdrawal from a pension (apart from the usual tax-free 25%) is subject to income tax. Also of course, pensions cannot be accessed until a certain age (which is, I think currently 55, increasing to 57).

Re: Labour pensions
- Not impressed (5th Jun 2024 - 16:54:42)

Jen I meant the money that anyone puts into a private pension they have already paid tax on. Then when they start to draw the pension they get taxed again. I pay a lot of tax on two very small pensions my total pensions are a drop in the ocean compared to public service sector.

It’s time the public sector stopped these gold plated pensions I have two family members in teaching their pensions are off the scale. Another retired from the police enormous eye watering. This needs to stop. Trouble is it will increase under labour the unions have got a grip on the Labour Party so it will not get any better.

Re: Labour pensions
- Pensioner (5th Jun 2024 - 17:03:36)

D I was self employed most of my working life. I paid all my subscriptions plus a levee class 4 if I remember on income above a level a lot of money. My pension today is £169.50 plus 25p age related a week. No where near enough to live on so totally agree that pensioners should not have to pay tax on their pensions under £35000 a year.

Re: Labour pensions
- D (5th Jun 2024 - 19:13:47)

I agree absolutely, Pensioner.

Re: Labour pensions
- Sam (5th Jun 2024 - 20:10:17)

Sunak called the election date by himself and earlier than anyone expected as he knows the result, his family is off to America and his missis wants the foregone conclusion out of the way to give the family time to settle in the states and get the kids schooling sorted in September.

He’s a dead man walking, knows it and is planning ahead, that how little he really cares,

Re: Labour pensions
- Local (5th Jun 2024 - 21:52:01)

Sam you're an idiot, you just spout rubbish just to get attention.

Re: Labour pensions
- Sam (5th Jun 2024 - 22:47:11)

Sorry I should have said It’s a prediction, not a statement of fact,

Fun thing is we will find out in a few short months, he still has his green card. Will lose the election, will lose his post as leader, and is utterly minted in cash anyway so it’s a solid prediction.. I’ll update in September when his kids start their first day in school :) in the US of A and then I’ll be able to say his missus told him when to call the election.

Re: Labour pensions
- Sam (5th Jun 2024 - 22:52:28)

Should add “local” is well known for blaming new people to the village for any and all problems, tells you quite a bit on the mindset, defo reform voter I reckon, thinks Farage is a lovely fella, but I don’t like many pay much attention as concealed names = troll, that’s an internet fact

Re: Labour pensions
- Iwik61 (6th Jun 2024 - 06:57:38)

Question for Jim at top of thread,I get we the country owes 2.5 trillion whatever the figure is ,but why in the US they never bother as that country owes huge amount of trillions with no hope of ever paying that back so my question why do we care about ours and they really don’t care what their national debt is.???

Re: Labour pensions
- Local (6th Jun 2024 - 09:26:32)

Sam if that’s your real first name who said anything about new people to the village?? . Think you’re probably the troll would say your posts remind me of a 10 year old but that would be an insult to a 10 year old.

Re: Labour pensions
- Jen (6th Jun 2024 - 12:03:23)

Re: Labour pensions
- Not impressed (5th Jun 2024 - 16:54:42)

"Jen I meant the money that anyone puts into a private pension they have already paid tax on".

And I meant that the money that anyone puts into a private pension is tax exempt, ie they have NOT already paid tax on it!

What tax is it that you think they've already paid?

Re: Labour pensions
- Not impressed (6th Jun 2024 - 13:02:35)

Jen you me and most of the working people pay tax . If you put some of your earnings into a pension fine it earns interest to give you a pension. When you draw that pension to live on because the state pension is not enough you get taxed on it which I find ridiculous. If you didn’t take out a private pension then you would have to go on benefits to live so it’s totally wrong to tax pensioners at such a low threshold £ 30 to 40 thousand a year would be appropriate for a starting point. It doesn’t encourage workers to take out pensions when they get tax on it the Labour Party seems to love hammering the old people who can’t fight back.

Re: Labour pensions
- Jen (6th Jun 2024 - 13:59:45)

@not impressed

So, you concede that you were incorrect when you said that people have already paid tax on their pension contributions?

You now instead seem to be suggesting that people with pension income should have a tax-free allowance of between £30k and £40k! What is your reasoning behind that suggestion? Why is it that you think someone of working age who earns £30k a year should have to pay tax on all income above the basic tax-free allowance and yet someone above state pension who is in receipt of a pension age should not?

Re: Labour pensions
- Not impressed (6th Jun 2024 - 14:39:16)

Jen no I said people that put money into a pension have paid tax on that contribution. If you put say £100 a month in a pension when you draw that out you have to pay tax again. Do you understand? . As for the threshold it should be set higher because pensioners have strived all their lives going without to save for their old age then get get taxed to the hilt their endeavours . Seems you have a different view your prerogative perhaps you have a public gold plated pension.

Re: Labour pensions
- Joe (6th Jun 2024 - 15:02:06)

Jen, what the poster means by tax has already been paid, is the Income Tax on your employed earnings that come out of your bank account.

Re: Labour pensions
- Jen (6th Jun 2024 - 17:45:14)

Oh, good grief! I am trying to point out that there is NO tax payable on pension contributions (unless you pay in more than 100% of your income in any given year or you pay in more than the annual limit, which is currently £40k).

There are basically two ways to pay into your pension fund. You can either have it deducted from your pay at source, in which case it will be itemised on your payslip, or you can pay in yourself from your bank account.

Whichever way you pay in, the contributions are TAX EXEMPT. If it's deducted from your monthly pay, it will be deducted before any income tax is calculated, ie it will NOT be included in the amount that you will be taxed on for that month. So you will

If you want to pay £100 into your pension from your already taxed money in your bank account, you pay in £80 and your pension provider claims back the tax on your behalf, to gross up the contribution to £100. If you actually paid in £100 from post-tax income, you'd end up with £125.

So, either way, you've got £100 in your pension which has effectively cost you only £80, since you haven't paid any tax on it.

I do hope that explains what I'm trying to say! It's pretty basic information which anyone who pays into a pension will already know.

Re: Labour pensions
- Re (6th Jun 2024 - 18:24:29)

Jen then they claw it back by taxing when the pension is activated giving with one hand and taking back with the other. That’s why pensions should not be taxed otherwise it’s pointless.

Re: Labour pensions
- local person (12th Jun 2024 - 19:39:13)


The fact that some people can't understand how the pension contributions are NOT taxed and so the INCOME when taken out of the pension then should be taxed IS typical of the level of knowledge that many people have of how economics work. It is likely why we have had Brexit and a Conservative failure for the last 14 years.

Re: Labour pensions
- Jen (14th Jun 2024 - 17:50:56)

@Local person

Sadly, I think you're probably right.

I gave up trying to explain the tax situation on this thread. The lack of understanding of the most basic information relating to pensions is really quite alarming.

Re: Labour pensions
- Pensioner (14th Jun 2024 - 21:24:10)

Jen and others we all understand the tax system. DONT belittle us . Ok you probably are young enough not to be drawing a pension but when you are you will probably get just as worked up about being taxed on your pension especially if it’s very small. Again pensioners should not have to pay tax at such a low level of income that they have worked so hard to have in their old age. Sorry Jen but it’s so hard being a pensioner to make ends meet no way of increasing your income not like working people they can get another job or two to make more money. It’s terrible that governments keep taxing the old generation disgraceful.

Re: Labour pensions
- Jen (16th Jun 2024 - 09:07:53)


Sorry that my post made you (or others) feel belittled. That certainly wasn't my intention, so please accept my sincere apologies. I was only trying to explain the system and how pensions are taxed as it appeared that posters here didn't understand it.

I understand your sentiments regarding being taxed on a small pension, but I'm not sure I agree that "pensioners should not have to pay tax at such a low level of income".

What you're basically saying is that you think that younger people (who typically have far greater expenses than retired people - childcare; mortgage; commuting costs; clothes for work; children's clothes & equipment, toys, books etc) should have a greater tax burden than retired people, who have far fewer expenses as a rule.

That seems very unfair, to me. Why would you want someone in their 30s or 40s, for example, (the age of your own children, perhaps) on a low income, let's say £20k, to pay tax on their income, but someone in their 70s+ not to pay tax on the same income?

Remember, the younger person has to pay National Insurance, the pensioner doesn't. The younger person has to pay for their prescriptions and eye tests, the pensioner doesn't. And, as mentioned above, the younger person has many expenses that the pensioner doesn't - and they must also try to save and pay into their own pension funds.

Re: Labour pensions
- Pensioner (17th Jun 2024 - 20:29:20)

Jen you have highlighted a lot of things young people families have to pay for but some things I would classify as luxury items. But that’s me . I think you’re not grasping the point it was the same back in the late forties fifties and sixties very low wages and long working hours. To climb the ladder young couples with children had to work very hard long hours two three jobs the wife taking the children to house work jobs no child care could not afford that . Husband coming home wife going out to clean offices. Yes agree hard today but personally not has hard as then . We had to pay doctors and dentist so it all balances out . If you managed to save enough for a deposit on a house the interest rate was 15% when I managed it . No eating out like today pubs full of families eating out posh cars in the car park. And when at last you retire and think you can live a bit they start taxing you again so a lifetime of graft and a few years perhaps of retirement and they still want more especially labour governments .

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