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Covid Vaccine - A debate! - rolli (2nd Dec 2020 - 09:18:31) Seems like very good news that we are going to be the first county in the World to roll out this vaccine. However, do I trust our government not to have put pressure to speed up the testing regime, has there been a strict and thorough process to ensure public safety or our we going to be risking another Thalidomide type outrage for political expediency? I do hope Boris is not letting us be the Worlds Lab Rats.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - rolli (2nd Dec 2020 - 10:20:33) Just read on the BBC that independent regulator says no corners cut, that's encouraging

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Bob (2nd Dec 2020 - 10:29:02) Best of luck unpicking politics out of the pandemic!

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - C (2nd Dec 2020 - 10:50:00) Although this has come out superfast, that is because so many scientists and research doctors have prioritised it over what they might otherwise have been doing. Also the various stages of the trials have been completed in an overlapping way to speed them up. Personally, I can't wait to get my jab and have my life back!

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Resident (2nd Dec 2020 - 12:08:42) Yes can’t wait fed up with all of it. More damage being done by staying indoors. Mental Health suffering people getting paranoid about going out.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Joe (2nd Dec 2020 - 12:57:49) Rolli I think it is voluntary anyway they cannot force you. They are starting with 80 year olds unlikely to conceive.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - AF (2nd Dec 2020 - 14:58:06) I have no fears about the vaccine it's basically an existing vaccine that been tweaked to work against Covid19, and it's been quick but that's due to the vast amount of people and money that's been thrown at this. It will take a good 3-4 months to get everyone that wants it vaccinated. After everyone who wants it has been vaccinated, we have to face it there are a lot of people out there who will refuse to take it, now we should get back to normal and those people will have to take their chances if they get ill or even die that's their fault and have to face up to their own decisions. My only concern is they block up the hospitals due to their idiocy but there's no answer to this.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - M (2nd Dec 2020 - 17:21:53) Although I appreciate some may have questions on the speed this vaccine has been brought forward I do think Rolli bringing up Thalidomide is not helpful and is a little scaremongering. I will be having my jab as I do believe the risk is worth taking for everyone's benefit, not just my own..

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - D (2nd Dec 2020 - 17:49:37) I'm in absolute agreement with everyone else on this thread, this house arrest really is unbearable now. Those people who don't want a vaccine, fine, might mean those of us who do want it get it quicker. Let's all drink a toast to the science boffins who have made this possible.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Joe (2nd Dec 2020 - 22:29:30) The first vaccine needs to be stored at minus 90. We folks not in hosp will have to wait for the vacine which can be stored in our GPs fridge. Also have to have it every year, hopefully the silly people who do not want the jab will also refuse any nhs treatment if they get the virus.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - D (3rd Dec 2020 - 07:33:16) Joe, we corresponded some time ago concerning the Anchor Annex. A rather nice aerial view of Liphook taken in 1974 has appeared on the Liphook Nostalgia website showing an excellent view of the centre of Liphook. The Annex is a lot bigger than I remember, was a wonderful time to live in Liphook. This should link to that picture Liphook nostalgia - 1974 picture

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Freya (3rd Dec 2020 - 08:39:30) So what has happened to the freedom of choice in this world. Human rights act article 10. equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-10-freedom-expression Article 2,3 , 8 and are also appropriate. For those who disagree then that's fine. Just remember. It's not compulsory to have these covid vaccines. People shouldn't be made to feel shamed, blamed and abused for not having the vaccines. Some will be allergic to to the ingredients. Do we know what ingredients the covid vaccines contain. Did you know that if you have a egg allergy you shouldn't have a flu jab for example. It's not as simple a decision as everyone seems to think. The vaccine is not one size fits all. So if you want the vaccine that's your personal choice and yours alone. Don't have a go at other people who may or may not want the vaccine. Stop labelling people as anti vaxxers to me that's someone who doesn't wash their carpets 😂😂😂 Just because someone doesn't want chemicals in their body attacking their healthy immune system. It doesn't make them a anti vaxxer. What is our immune system for. Why are we not allowed to fight covid naturally if we are healthy and and have no underlying health conditions. Stop labelling people as conspiracy theorists just because someone disagrees with you. It's disrespectful. Let people do as they wish without the guilt trip.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - James (3rd Dec 2020 - 09:14:16) Hi Freya, Article 10 also allows other people to express their views. For example, if you don't get the vaccine and there is not a reason why you didn't get it (i.e medical) then you are willing to potentially kill others who have either not been vaccinated yet or can't due to a medical reason. And no, you can be labelled as an anti-vaxxer if you do not have the vaccine because of your views on it. Multiple diseases are coming back because they do not get vaccinated. Vaccines are there to help the immune system Freya, I take it you go to hospital if you have broken leg? so why aren't you getting vaccinated before you get the disease. It's that simple. I do however respect your opinion, I just do not agree with it.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Miranda (3rd Dec 2020 - 09:47:23) According to the FT, thinking that the whole population will be vaccinated is very misguided... so there will be vast numbers of the population that will not receive the vaccine... Here's the link to the article... www.ft.com/content/...

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - D (3rd Dec 2020 - 10:43:14) I think persons who refuse the vaccine on ideological/political grounds are being very selfish as they pose a risk to the 5% for whom the vaccine would not be effective. Many of us have fathers and grandfathers who were asked to give their lives for their country and did so willingly, and some of us can't even manage a simple jab. Shame. I remember about thirty years ago many parents refusing to have their children inoculated against meningitis because they thought they knew better. Twenty years later many of their now grown up children tried to get vaccinated after seeing friends die of meningitis at university.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - passfield resident (3rd Dec 2020 - 11:30:00) Well said D. Medical intervention in our lives is a fact. We don't all have healthy immune systems or the strength to fight off a range of conditions, and in the case of Covid elderly people often can't fight it off. The flu vaccine is very useful in older people, for example. Some of the anti-vaxers sound a bit like the very strange people (polite description) who won't have things like blood transfusions. If take up of the Covid vaccines is lower than it should be the disease will be more prevalent and will kill far more people than it should.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Joe (3rd Dec 2020 - 14:53:53) Thanks for the photo D it looked quite a big building. With regard to the vaccine we are lucky that we live somewhere with free healthcare. Those who refuse the vaccinations - would you like to pay for your treatment, if you were sick with a disease such as polio, measles, diptheria, leprosy or anything which is/was easily caught and now eradicated in this country due to vaccinations. Would you refuse to be vaccinated against malaria etc if you wanted an exotic holiday? Also, there will be multiple types of vaccine eventually, I am sure the authorities make allowance for those with allergies.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - AF (3rd Dec 2020 - 17:36:00) The vaccine can't be compulsory, however those that don't take it should have to face the consequences. You should always wear facemasks everywhere. Keep 2 meters away from everyone, Do not attend any pub restaurant. Do not go on Holiday. Do not go to any theater or concert and if you contract the COVID19 do not receive any medical treatment on the NHS.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - er (3rd Dec 2020 - 22:13:29) Great news on the Pfizer vaccine being passed for UK use! However, if the govt says it's not compulsory, (or the public would lose faith in it), I think they know better than us who desperately want to get back down the pub and shopping quick! They refuse to forcibly vaccinate the people, they say some people in certain jobs may be 'expected' to take it and pregnant women mustn't (citing no available data on possible side effects for them) but that's it, it will be many months till the majority can get it anyway, by then there may be more choices and they know that too. Anti-vaxxers are very different from people sensibly using their freedom of expression to ask really important civic questions. Not everyone is so intelligent, we need people who ask questions or the rest of us would be force fed anything the govt wants, the question-askers are our 'mineshaft canaries', if they are showing a genuine concern! A poster typed above" I have no fears about the vaccine it's basically an existing vaccine that been tweaked to work against Covid19, and it's been quick but that's due to the vast amount of people and money that's been thrown at this" In FACT: Perhaps you're confusing the Oxford (still in trials) with the Pfizer vaccine which the UK authorised the other day. This is quite important, the Oxford one is not yet approved but is more traditional. The Pfizer one is now approved in the UK (although the EU are refusing just yet till they can analyse more results). However it's certainly NOT a tweaked existing vaccine by any means! It's actually brand spanking new, almost sci fi messenger RNA (closely related to DNA) technology which doesn't use a virus at all but (as best I understand) synthetic nanoparticles injected into human cells which send data directly to temporarily programme them (messengers) to manufacture an adaptive immune response. (if anyone can explain better I'd appreciate your explanation!) Actually RNA was discovered in mid Victorian times but the ability to reprogramme living RNA is brand new in medicine, it is very, very promising in terms of efficacy and known lack of worrying side effects but has never been tried on humans before (I don't even know if it's been approved in vetinary medicine before, would need to research that). There is great short term data to show this vaccine works well (I think 2 months in humans), but absolutely ZERO data (yet) to show whether there will be medium or long term side effects from this or any other Messenger RNA vaccine in humans. This will come now with mass use, as opposed to the usual controlled 2 year (approx) testing (no amount of money can speed that up)! While scientists are very optimistic based on the science, it is in practice a step into the unknown (albeit of necessity)! This is understandably the main worry, not just in vaccination terms, but in terms of both a totally new science + a new vaccine! To quote Wikipedia :Given the novel nature of the mechanism of action of RNA vaccines, and their delivery systems,[2] little is known about the medium and longer-term side effects,[8] however, autoimmunity, and reactogenicity (mainly from the lipid nanoparticles), have been highlighted. Anyone with autoimmune diseases will know they are often not inconsequential, but painful, debilitating, life altering and sadly, often very limiting. It may very well be that the benefits far outweigh the risks as it's rolled out over the coming months and years, but I think we should all pause to really appreciate the democratic govt current approach to personal choice, asking questions is placed in great value in Britain, we are clearly not at the forcible vaccination threat in view of our governments statement and vaccine logistics, if that changes we would be told by the Prime Minister and must respect the judgement of the experts, no? Many may reasonably need or prefer take it quick, some may choose lawfully wait to see if a traditional vaccine is coming out soon while learning more (the Oxford one isn't far behind), the NHS belongs to them as much as us who take it now, no one should talk about disenfranchising them from the NHS for a lawful decision. A few may read this and think 'interesting', maybe even 'thanks for the analysis' I suspect others may skip over and think 'it's people like that don't deserver to be treated if they get sick'. Take your choice, as the OP called it, a debate!! A very goodnight as things hopefully begin to look up!

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - lac (4th Dec 2020 - 10:08:08) Great to see the informed debate on this thread. Some excellent points on safety and efficacy of the vaccine. However, the basic point remains the same. There is risk in everything we do. Driving a hundred miles, smoking 1 cigarette and living for 10,000 years next door to a nuclear power station all carry the same risk of death. Our perception of that risk means that no one wants a nuclear power plant next door but will happily drive 100 miles to go shopping at Lakeside. The risk of catching and dying from Covid 19 if over 60 is highly significant. The risk of suffering a serious adverse reaction to the vaccine is multiple times smaller. As Inspector Callaghan said in the movie Dirty Harry "do you feel lucky, punk?"

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - C (4th Dec 2020 - 12:08:36) Can I suggest that Wikipedia is not a great source of important information as anyone can edit it and add completely made up information. Similarly, please do not believe everything you read on social media - there are hundreds of rumours that are simply not true about Covid and the vaccines. Clearly there will be a small number of people such a cancer and transplant patients, who, for genuine medical reasons, cannot be vaccinated. However, this should not include those with specific allergies due to the various different types of vaccines being developed. For example, anyone with an egg allergy will be offered a vaccine that is not manufactured using eggs. As many people as possible need to be vaccinated, not only to protect themselves, but to protect those who cannot receive any type of vaccine. Unless you have a genuine medical issue, it is very selfish to refuse. The vaccine approval process is all available to read online on the MHRA website if any one has doubts gov.uk/government/collections/mhra-guidance-on-coronavirus-covid-19#vaccines-and-vaccine-safety

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Phill (4th Dec 2020 - 14:03:51) Dear all, There is a big difference between those who think this is a government conspiracy to inject a tagging device into the population and those that are sensibly a little wary of a new vaccine that has been produced in double-quick time to meet an enormous, global need. As a vet for over a quarter of a century I have given tens of thousands of vaccination doses and had only ONE life-threatening anaphylactic reaction (treated immediately, complete recovery) across all species in that time. I have also seen the consequences of not vaccinating in other countries eg in rural China, where most of the local dogs were killed by a wave of distemper, a disease I have only seen only ONCE in the UK thanks to vaccination, and that in a rescued pup imported from central Europe. I am also a strong advocate of not vaccinating any more frequently that is needed to maintain immunity. The benefit to OUR species from vaccination has been immeasurable. That is not to say that having a vaccination, any vaccination, is without risk, but the rigorous research and testing ensures that any risk is miniscule compared with the risk from the disease being protected against. Those who refuse to be vaccinated against COVID based on a rational risk assessment should be allowed to do so. They will hopefully be surrounded by those who are protected by vaccination and so will remain safe. Those who refuse based on social-media propagated fear-mongering should be gently reasoned with but, at the end of the day, it is their choice and probably reflects deeper concerns that will not be ameliorated by being pilloried. I will be having mine at the earliest opportunity, having complete (but not blind) faith in the scientific process that brought it into being. Regards, Phill Small World Vet Centre

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - passfield resident (4th Dec 2020 - 14:19:12) Well said Phill

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Penny Williamson (4th Dec 2020 - 15:37:20) Excellent post Phill.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - D (5th Dec 2020 - 07:26:48) Small World Vet Centre, you make no mention of the 5% of cases for whom the vaccine would not be effective. I think this 5% takes precedence over those refusing to be vaccinated for other than medical reasons. It would make a mockery of everything we have endured since March if this small minority were allowed to go about their lives knowing they could be carriers infecting people. We all have a social responsibility to be vaccinated but in today's selfish world the word "responsibility" seems to have disappeared.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Freya (5th Dec 2020 - 08:08:03) By the looks of how things are going. Our government have rushed this covid-19 vaccine out a little too quickly. The government and scientists are also a little to excited about death rates, vaccines and being interviewed on tv about it. This is the most alarming. firstly decision will be based on which age group your in. My age group 50 and under will probably not get a vaccine for another 10 months to a year. So covid my be gone by then. Especially if the government allows it and stops reporting out dated information and graphs scaring everyone. if you're female pregnant , planning a pregnancy now or in next five years you shouldn't have this vaccine as it could damage your baby or make you sterile, so you can't have babies. This was stated by the chief medical officer professor Van- Tam during the press conference the other day. Even if you have the vaccine we all still have to wear masks and use track and tracing. Which seems pointless to have vaccine at present. Again stated by chief medical officer professor Van-Tam during the press conference. At present having the vaccine doesn't mean you won't still get covid- 19. Again stated by chief medical officer professor Van-Tam during the press conference. There needs to be more research into long term side effects. As no one knows what is going to happen. Again stated by chief medical officer professor Van-Tam during the press conference. Everyone who has the vaccine is going to be monitored to see what reactions they get. Doctors giving the vaccine and the company's making the vaccines have signed agreements with the government so that if things go wrong they take no blame or responsibility. To me this is not safe to take at present and humans are being used as lab rats to test theories out. This vaccine has not had the usual couple of years testing to make safer. So alarm bells are screaming inside of me not to take this at present. I'm not a anti vaxxer. I'm not a conspiracy theorists. I'm generally concerned and everything inside me is screaming to not have anything to do with this vaccine. My gut feeling is never usually wrong. It protects me very well. I do suffer from allergies to medications. My doctor doesn't like prescribing me medication as my body just rejects it. Medication rarely works.Even paracetamol doesn't work when I have a headache. So over the years I have made by immune system stay healthy with food and other natural ways. I work with my doctor with this. This vaccine is not one size fits all. I think anyone who blindly follows and doesn't ask questions needs to start asking questions. Your health is your number one priority. Everyone's body reacts differently, so one size vaccine doesn't fit all. Stop believing everything your told , start asking questions.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Ian (5th Dec 2020 - 10:06:06) D - " allowed to go about their lives" so what are you suggesting? lock them up? shoot them with rubber bullets? You do seem to have a fondness for draconian measures, bet you would love to live in a totalitarian state. For the record, despite some concerns about long term side effects and the speed of production I will probably choose to have the vaccine; but absolutely would not want to live in a society where Government (especially inept ones) can dictate what is injected into my body against my will

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - D (5th Dec 2020 - 11:22:34) Freya, if you have concerns about this vaccine you might do better to approach the relevant organisations concerned or your member of Parliament with your evidence.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Ian (5th Dec 2020 - 11:59:02) D for Dictatorship! The heading on this post is quite clear, DEBATE! Freya is completely entitled to add her contribution to the debate, that's what the forum is designed for.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Phill (5th Dec 2020 - 13:52:04) Dear all, I felt a response was needed regarding the use of the vaccine in pregnancy. The issue here is simply lack of data to support its use in pregnant women- as the trials did not include pregnant women for obvious reasons- not that there is actual evidence of harm. The risk/benefit balance cannot therefore be ascertained. This is the same for many of drugs in everyday use, where the doctor is advised to make a judgement based on clinical need, after open discussion with the patient so that they can give informed consent. Regards, Phill SWVC

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - D (5th Dec 2020 - 16:38:33) Hello, Ian, how nice to hear from you again. I think your suggestion of shooting and locking up persons who refuse the vaccine a bit harsh (and you call ME "draconian") This vaccine is not only to stop us contracting this disease, but also to prevent us being carriers and infecting persons whom can't have the vaccine for legitimate reasons. This is no time for individual selfishness but for the whole community to act together responsibly for the good of all. We should be thankful for what our government has done for us. Had we been dogs with rabies or cattle with foot and mouth we would all have been shot and cremated by now.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Freya (5th Dec 2020 - 18:24:54) Everything you need to know about the Pfizer/BioNTech covid-19 vaccine. Posted 3rd December 2020 by Newscientist Read more: newscientist.com/article/2261805-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine This answers some of my worries. But I'm not convinced yet that the vaccine will work.. as more research is still needed. It's a very interesting article to read.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Penny Williamson (5th Dec 2020 - 19:01:06) Freya I think you have misinterpreted some of what Van Tam has been saying. He has stated many times that Covid 19 is unlikely to be eradicated in the next few months as in his opinion it will be with us for the forseeable future and probably become a seasonal infection like flu. With regard to pregnant women receiving the vaccine yes it is true Van Tam has stated along with other scientists that pregnant women will not be vaccinated. However it must be said that pregnant women are advised not to take any sort of medication while pregnant so no surprise there! I did not hear Van Tam or any other scientist say that the vaccine can make women sterile. Yes it is true that Van Tam and other scientists are advising wearing face masks even after mass vaccination, because the wearing of masks prevent not only the spread of Covid 19 but other viruses and infections. I did not hear Van Tam say specifically that more research is needed implying that the vaccine was not safe. He and other scientists have said there will be ongoing research and part of that research will be to find a vaccine that the few people who cannot take this vaccine, will be able to take in the future. Van Tam said with regard to having any vaccine does not mean 100% immunity but it will make the odds extremely low. I don't know anything about signed agreements with the Government or other bodies, but I do know that the volunteers who have had the vaccine and are still having it are not forced into doing so because I personally know two of them. I suggest Freya that you stop being so dogmatic and telling people what they should and should not do. No one is forcing you to have the vaccine. You seem to think the Government is scaring us for no reason at all except to see us all scared. This is a global pandemic and a global problem. Governments are not taking the actions they are taking, and will continue to do so, for fun.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Mikey B (5th Dec 2020 - 21:07:17) Well done Rolli. Why on earth would you could you create such a silly post? What purpose are you trying to serve? Are you baaaannnnnnaaaaa man?

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - D (5th Dec 2020 - 22:12:26) Freya, "everything I need to know about the vaccine"? I don't think so, all I need to know is when it's my turn. Surely any questions regarding the vaccine would be better answered by the manufacturers and not some shaggy dog website with their own agenda?

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - JP (6th Dec 2020 - 01:16:51) D - if you look at Freya's link you'll see it goes to the New Scientist website. That's a magazine that has been running for many years and is a good source of science news. While it may not be the BMJ or the Lancet, it certainly isn't a home for conspiracy theorists.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Editor (6th Dec 2020 - 03:24:45) Just to confirm D’s last response was to a previous post by Freya. The ‘New Scientist’ post wasn’t visible at the time of D’s reply.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - rolli (7th Dec 2020 - 11:02:08) Mikey - as the title suggests, Its a debate on a subject that clearly warrants discussion. However, if you are unable to understand the issues and opinions being discussed then best you probably move on to another topic that you don't find so silly

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Joe (7th Dec 2020 - 20:36:56) It appears at present vaccinations are only destined for the over 50s or those under in clinical need.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Freya (9th Dec 2020 - 17:57:01) Well that only took a few hours. Are you all still sure you want the Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine. People with a history of significant allergic reactions should not have the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid jab, regulators say. It came after two NHS workers had allergic reactions on Tuesday 8th December 2020. The advice applies to those who have had reactions to medicines, food or vaccines, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency said. bbc.com/news/health-55244122

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - passfield resident (9th Dec 2020 - 20:11:55) Yes, I'm sure I still want it.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - Mary W (19th Dec 2020 - 14:41:27) We’ve both had our vaccinations done at Festival Hall, Petersfield. Beautifully organised, the local Lions group organising arrivals etc, straight in, fill out form, have jab and wait for 15 mins. All ages of elderly people mainly. No reaction apart from usual tenderness after vaccinations. Hope to have developed a little resistance by Christmas and second jab three weeks later, same day, same time. Get in there when you're asked, peace of mind and freedom is all I crave.

Re: Covid Vaccine - A debate! - AF (20th Dec 2020 - 17:42:22) Well done Mary. This is the only way to beat the virus and beat the safety measures which are even worse. I hope the anti-vaxers and other idiots wake up and get the jab.

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