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Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Jane Adams (30th May 2020 - 23:42:13) New Milestone achieved... England (Removing devolved nations Scotland/Wales/N Ireland) now has has the worst coronavirus mortality rate in the world. i.e the people in charge making the covid responses in Scotland/Wales/N Ireland have actually done a great job and despite their underling status to London they have saved many people and in benefit to London held the very poor record of the UK down a little. But, when the stats have been looked at without the devolved nations, i.e just England. Its the worst mortality rate in the world.... and getting worse. I thought we were supposed to be amazing and near first at everything, I thought our NHS (at least how its funded and supported) was a world beater? I feel alot of wool on my eyes and a far bit of shame as well as I see the cold facts about us is available to the rest of the world and I can see the cold fact on the rest of the world..... they are ALL doing better than us.. So what exactly is this illusion we have of ourselves? do people in North Korea have the same illusion?

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - liz (31st May 2020 - 08:17:55) I think it was clear early on that our government were at least two weeks too late in imposing lockdown as they stressed the need for 'herd immunity'. Then there was a chronic shortage of PPE due to being unprepared. This is not meant as an anti-Tory statement although it does reflect on those in charge. To be fair some of it may have been due to the greater population density in the UK and a greater number of international travellers arriving in London - making an early lockdown and quarantine of new arrivals even more important. Now we are at risk of easing lockdown too early, with new cases still at about 8000 per day and against the advice of many in the scientific community. There is an urgent need to get the economy moving again but if this leads to a second spike due to impatience then we could be back to square one. I have seen people on this forum saying they are out and about because they are "not scared". However you are not distancing to protect yourself, but to protect other people.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Yellow Bannanna Adrian (31st May 2020 - 09:49:14) I won't argue about the statistics about having the worst mortality rate i will assume they are correct. However the statistic that is rarely mentioned is the mortality rate of those who catch the virus is UNDER 1%, and those that regrettably die are the elderly, the older the higher risk and those with other medical conditions. The danger of this virus has been blown out of all proportion by the media and caused unnecessary fear among the population, how many people are going to die as they avoid going to A&E due to fear of catching the virus, what about the mental health of people staying indoors due to the fear of going out. The lock-down was a mistake, it may have saved a few lives but the cost was too high. It's as Donald Trump said we have to be careful the cure isn't worse than the disease.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Tanya (31st May 2020 - 10:04:45) It’s just down to how we report our numbers in England. If Covid is mentioned on a death certificate then it’s counted as a coronavirus death, whether it was the underlying cause or not.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Zoe (31st May 2020 - 10:38:25) We only have the highest rate because anyone who sadly dies at present has covid-19 put on their death certificate. The hospital trusts get paid a lot of money for anyone who has been recorded as passing away with covid-19. Sadly money is more important than recording people's death correctly. Is it false recording and how do we know that it was covid-19 that people have died from without a test or symptoms. There are plenty of reports from people who's loved ones have passed away from a long term chronic illness. Their relatives have never been tested for covid-19 or had any symptoms, yet it's recorded on their death certificate as a covid-19 death along with other reasons for cause if death. So how do we know that we are being told the true covid-19 death figures. I don't believe it's as high as it's been recorded. I believe we are being fed this information to keep everyone in fear and panic so the government can control everyone at present. I'm not saying covid-19 doesn't exist. I just don't believe the deaths are as high as they have been recorded. I really feel sorry for anyone who has sadly passed away at present and for their loved ones having to deal with extra unnecessary grief and pressure on top of loosing their loved ones.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Rob (31st May 2020 - 10:59:57) You can't compare stats across countries, there is currently a presumption that all deaths are COVID related. The NHS aren't even doing post mortems and there has been a change to certifying deaths that one Doctor only is required to certify and that Doctor doesn't even have to have seen the patient for 4 weeks. It will all come out in the wash in the end of course but it is far too early to start beating ourselves up about the number of deaths or the death rate compared to anyone else.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Jack (31st May 2020 - 11:02:57) If Boris doesn't care about the rules then why should i

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Dawn Hoskins (31st May 2020 - 12:09:24) @ Jane Adams If you want to see how the rest of the world views the UK's response you need to watch a different news source than the BBC. Although I have been losing faith in the news reporting abilities of the BBC for a number of years, this pandemic has absolutely sealed their fate as far as I'm concerned. Since COVID, our 'go-to' news channel is Al Jazeera news international which has UK channel (on our TV it is on 235) and a news roundup every couple of hours. As they are not affilitated with any political parties they report independently about the facts and also you get REAL nes as well - not just from the UK but from around the world. The differences in reporting has been stark, to say the least, when he BBC was covering virus deaths in their bland manner, Al Jazeera was having all sorts of debates and comparisons between countries and their approaches which was very illuminating. they have had a whole series of very qualified people in their debates and article rather than just a query from Laura Kuenssberg. In general, it is fair to say, that commentators from around the world have been pretty gobsmacked that as one of the most heavily populated spaces in the developed world, with some of the busiest airport and seaport hubs, that neither did we 'lockdown' nor prevent international travellers coming from highly infected countries ''waltz through'' our travel terminals completely unchecked since January The virus has no political affiliations, respects no geographic boundaries and cares not a jot about procedural decisions. The only purpose of a virus is to replicate/spread. As humans we have a choice whether to welcome the virus into our bodies - some have more choice than others and some unfortunate people (the neediest) must rely on their carers not to offer them that choice. The combination of government inaction and having some of the most stupid human inhabitants has most definitely impacted on our ability to stop the spread. Anyone looking at photos from Frensham Ponds over the last week will, hopefully, appreciate that one of the key ingredients for a low success rate is a high stupidity rate. we have this in common with a few counties, America mainly, whos population is also determined to go out and party regardless of the consequences. One of the other benefits of watching a global news service is that it also shows you how different governments deal with their 'idiots'. In India, they physically beat them with sticks from the back of motorbikes, in the Philippines, they shoot them - dead. It also shows you countries that have governments that are far worse than ours or America - such as Brazil. Universally, the largest concern from all commentators is the effect that the pandemic will have in Sub-Saharan Africa who, even if a 'cure' is found will be unlikely to receive it effectively. Meanwhile, as the OP suggested, countries that took swift advice when the World Health Organisation made their announcement 14 January that human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus was spreading, have been watching the UK with confusion and disbelief. The consequences were absolutely predicted and completely inevitable, I remember in a particular debate in the early days between Italian NHS and scientists who were imploring the UK not to make the same mistakes they had and to immediately take swift action - it fell on deaf ears. The 'herd immunity' approach, ultimately meant treating the UK population like sheep to the slaughter. We must decide who the shepherd was......

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Dawn Hoskins (31st May 2020 - 14:35:52) On the global news, one of the very interesting speakers have been those from UK industry, saying ‘’we have offered our services continually to the government but receive no reply’’’ these are manufacturers that could have been making PPE in the UK when we were suffering shortages. Their levels of frustration literally bounced off the screen knowing that they could help to solve the problem but being continually shunned in favour of importing inferior/out of date PPE from other countries. When the Ebola crisis hit Africa, a global checklist was drawn up to assess which countries were best placed to act effectively in the face of a pandemic. The index analyzed if countries have the proper tools in place to deal with large scale outbreaks of disease. America came top, and we were 2nd place. In fact have a written strategy/procedure albeit for the regular flu’. We just didn’t adhere to it – particularly the key component about PPE ….. “””The Government already has in place stockpiles of facemasks and respirators for health and social care workers…. we must continue to maintain stockpiles””” We ‘on paper’ should have been totally able and prepared to deal and stick to the pandemic ‘action plan’. It just goes to show that unless you take into account high levels of ‘stupid’ whether that is within the general public or the government, your level of ‘preparedness’ to deal with a pandemic is a useless measure. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/213717/dh_131040.pdf

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Julian (31st May 2020 - 15:04:52) I was expecting 250k deaths in the UK. We haven't had the awfully sad total lockdowns other countries have had, and for that I am relieved. BTW, health workers in India and other countries have been beaten as they have been accused of spreading the virus. Unacceptable behaviour but with more than a grain of truth. re. the spread into old peoples homes by agency staff.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - John Heywood (31st May 2020 - 16:06:25) Julian. Can you explain where you got your death total of 250k from. BJ has said 500k deaths were to be expected . BJ should have said a million. Then he would have done an even better job. There have been 370k deaths in the whole world.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Pete (31st May 2020 - 17:44:26) This idea that death certificates are being marked as Covid to generate money is utterly false! There is no benefit to that! I have a friend whom is a GP and he said if anything it’s easier to put “old age” on the death certificate because of you put Covid on it the coroner will give them too much hassle and paperwork to do as you will have to proof it etc. So many old people in homes are dying from Covid but it’s being put down to old age as they where within weeks/months of dying anyway. The Uk is not the worst because of some clerical error, it’s the worst because it’s the worst!

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - A (31st May 2020 - 19:52:56) My mother died during the pandemic and doesn’t have COVID on her death certificate...

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Katie (31st May 2020 - 20:10:25) If you look at the excess deaths from the ONS (the number of deaths over and above what they expected to see in the first five months of 2020 based on the previous years mortality rate, at this time of year) the total number is almost at 60,000. 60,000 more people than they expected to die by this point in 2020 have. That’s 22,000 more than have officially died with Covid-19. A small percentage will very sadly be people missing life-extending treatment and tragically some suicides but surely the vast majority must be Covid. Excess deaths was the way journalists were told government would be assessing the mortality rate during one of the daily briefings.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - XJ (7th Jun 2020 - 18:33:46) Belgium has 828 deaths per million. To put this into some context New York state 1,563 deaths per million. So perhaps one should spare a thought for their bereaved too.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - John (7th Jun 2020 - 19:55:29) XJ This post is about the god awful effort our leaders have done to handle this, and yes everyone feels for things going bad in other places but am not buying your efforts to distract us from how terrible the UK and specifically England alone as being one of the worst handled and managed places. More people died in the UK during one day last week than died in the whole of the other EU countries put together. Apparently Boris was unwilling to lock us down as his missus didn’t want her baby shower ruined. Am not a labour supporter, so your leftie defence isn’t a reply. We are lead by total idiots

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Suzie (8th Jun 2020 - 10:42:47) Over 6000 deaths from Covid-19 have occurred in London because the capital has a population of over 9 million. Obviously this will push the death rate up in England.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Gordy (8th Jun 2020 - 11:46:01) Such a complex subject with so many factors to consider. We have a much denser population than other large European nations - nearly 4 times that of France, over 4 times that of Spain, 25% higher than Germany. This has to impact the figures, particularly in London as Suzie says. I don't think we've isolated in the same way either, so many people I know are distancing in public but ignoring the rules in private. There's something in the British psyche that says we need rules but they only really apply to other people, not me personally. It's why we've invented so many things in the past as we like to challenge and test things. There's no way all countries are recording deaths in comparable ways either. Simply blaming the government is oversimplifying the situation. The government and their advisers are really not as bumbling as you imagine. YES, absolutely, mistakes have been made. Nobody was screaming for lockdown at the time everyone now, with hindsight, says we should have been in lockdown. I think the biggest mistake was not shutting down borders and allowing those sporting fixtures to continue for a bit (Cheltenham). So before anyone jumps on this to attack me for defending the government, please understand I am not. I just believe this is an unprecedented scenario with underlying factors in this country that means it's too simple to just blame the government alone.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Rölli (8th Jun 2020 - 12:22:04) Gordy, you absolutely make sense! well said.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Penny Williamson (8th Jun 2020 - 13:19:07) Very well said Gordy - my feelings exactly. You only have to look at the recent protests regarding the death of George Floyd. No social distancing there either and before anyone attacks me I understand why people need to protest and I totally condemn what happened to George Floyd and all other black deaths. I condemn any sort of racism but I think in these unprecedented times people should act responsibly and take responsibility for their own actions otherwise the consequences affect us all, in this case possibly spreading the virus.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Jane Adams (8th Jun 2020 - 20:17:33) If its all down to population density then higher density examples like the Netherlands, Israel and South Korea would all be in a terrible state with Covid compared to us ??? Yet none of them have anything close to the terrible stats the UK does ! South Korea for example had almost zero days’ notice before they got it compared to any of Europe and yet only 5 deaths per million, the UK deaths per million is 598 ! Both countries have large populations 52m to 63m, Seoul has more people than London. I think your population density theory needs more work mate... LOL

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Penny Williamson (8th Jun 2020 - 21:12:31) @Jane Adams - Of course it is not just about density, but this does play a role. My point was more about people actually obeying the guidelines with regard to social distancing and while I think many people are abiding by these guidelines a substantial number of people are not. This is forcibly demonstrated by the recent protests not just in this country but globally and not just protests - look at the beaches and other beauty spots. While I have every sympathy with the protestors and people wanting to get out and enjoy the fresh air and sunshine, please don't always blame the government for the inevitable result - more infections, more deaths.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Peter (8th Jun 2020 - 21:25:36) Yes there are many reasons why this country is doing so badly but population density Isn’t one of them and saying “these unprecedented times” isn’t cutting it for me am afraid. There are many examples of countries that have done a far far FAR better job. Seen it with my own eyes on TV tonight how well prepared they are half way up the amazon river in the middle of the forest hundreds of miles from anything! Even they HAD more PPE and testing kits than we did in the beginning. It’s a mighty shambles, I thought the UK is supposed to be leaders in the world... not jokes. Say what you like, I regret voting for this crowd of sorry losers

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Gordy (8th Jun 2020 - 21:55:56) Jane My post says it's a complicated issue and is down to a number of factors. Your response says "If it's all down to population density...." That's clearly not what I've said, is it?

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Peter (8th Jun 2020 - 22:39:05) To be fair Gordy you do present many things and I agree with but your opening reasoning as to why the UK could be greatly affected is population density is it not? Yes I agree it wasn’t all you said but that’s hardly a defence against the main point carried by that other poster. The population density of the UK is not one of the main reasons why the UK appears to have done so badly, I’ll leave my statement here, am a fan of good reasoning but not the P word

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Jim (8th Jun 2020 - 23:02:02) Penny I don’t understand any of your points, you seem to draw the first few words of your posts from and with the content of this posts subject and all other posters, yet you quickly transition to discussing the current demonstrations and the situation regarding the rights of black people. What am seeing with yours posts is that your not responding to the content of this post and your angle leads to your disapproval of people demonstrating then tenuously attempting to tie that to the terrible Covid stats of the UK. Let me be clear the disease takes two weeks to start affecting people, so the current demonstrations HAVE YET TO HAVE any impact on the whole point of this post. Yes they will have an impact, but! your clearly attempting to pin the whole thing on them now !! I suspect your a Tory are you not? Working this in to ease the pressure on your hero’s perhaps?

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Jacob (9th Jun 2020 - 08:19:10) Penny, to take two lines from your recent post 8th June @ 13:19 "I think in these unprecedented times people should act responsibly and take responsibility for their own actions otherwise the consequences affect us all, in this case possibly spreading the virus." 8th June @ 21:12 "Of course it is not just about density, but this does play a role. My point was more about people actually obeying the guidelines" Should Boris take a long hard look at Mr Cummings actions?

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Gordy (9th Jun 2020 - 08:24:47) Peter you're wrong in your defence of Jane I'm afraid. You can't take a reasoned argument and simply cherry pick one of the points made and spin a response to suggest that was the only thing that was sad. Population density has a massive influence, of course it does and it's well documented. The results can be seen both at a global level and just by looking within the UK. Just think of how the virus spreads - it can't travel anywhere if there's nobody nearby for it to travel to or no pizza containers being coughed on and delivered unnecessarily etc. As you say, there are examples of high areas of population density that haven't suffered as badly as we have and there will be reasons for that. I've already suggested more disciplined social distancing but different age structures, different strains of the virus that have been found and more sensible people. How many people do you know who continued to shop regularly during lockdown, for instance? For me, one of the most obvious things to do was reduce the frequency of supermarket trips to once every week or 10 days, limiting exposure. I thought that an obvious thing to do but many people didn't. Many people also weren't frightened to get the virus themselves so carried on pretty much as normal. As I said, I'm not defending the Gov't. It looks like they'd planned a herd immunity response, based on scientific advice, and had to do a U turn from that quite sharpish. Mistakes have been made but MANY factors are involved, including population density. If we had the same population but spread out in an area twice the size that we have (so half the density), deaths and infection rates would be significantly lower. It would be easier to contain the spread.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Penny Williamson (9th Jun 2020 - 09:52:54) Jim I quoted the recent protests as an example of people continuing to ignore social distancing and the only reason I mentioned that I had sympathy for the outrage felt by people protesting was because I knew I would be attacked if I didn't. I was not trying to change the thread. Perhaps I put my view in a way that was not clear. What I was trying to say was that the high figures for infection and death in the UK is not all about population density although as Gordy says this plays a part. There are many reasons for this and yes some mistakes have been made. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. However the spreading of the virus has been exacerbated by some people ignoring social distancing. If you remember lockdown was brought in on 23 March mainly because the sunny weekend before saw people picnicking and gathering with no social distancing whatsoever in spite of repeated warnings from the Government and the NHS was becoming overwhelmed. Lockdown did have an effect and the majority obeyed the guidelines, but a great deal of the damage had already been done. However as the weeks went on during lockdown more and more people started to ignore social distancing and it is my opinion that this has contributed to the continued spread of the virus. Your last sentence in your posts detracts rather than enhances - a cheap jibe methinks. Jacob regarding Dominic Cummings please check out my post dated 30 May in the thread Petition and you will read my opinion of that scenario.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - John (9th Jun 2020 - 10:35:43) Gordy you are switching your statements from “the uk is more affected because of its population density compared to Germany etc” to now “population density is a factor” Your watering it down, why can you just accept that the population density of the UK v other countries probably isn’t why the UK is doing so badly? It’s not a competition here, everyone doesn’t have to be 100% right. You have some good opinions but it’s beginning to look bad now as your determined to defend a terrible position

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Gordy (9th Jun 2020 - 14:32:35) No John (or Jane, as I suspect you are one and the same), I'm certainly not watering down my statement. You did make me laugh though when you accused me of being determined to defend a terrible position, thanks for that. Classic.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Jane Adams (9th Jun 2020 - 15:36:17) Gordy, Referring to your reply to me.... Oh come on! I did not say your only point was UK population! I just specifically looked at your idea that the UK got it worse than Germany and France etc, as the UK has a greater population density by using the words to isolate my point by starting the sentence "If it’s all down to population density.... It’s getting pedantic now from what am reading, and whilst I agree with much of what you had to say, the UK is not getting it worse because it’s got a mildly greater population density than say Germany. South Korea being my clear example. I agree when you say “it's a complicated issue and is down to a number of factors” but then that is very sweeping and obvious. Am sure you will get the last word, but consider just retracting the Population density of the UK is the reason why it’s suffered more than Germany/France etc as it patently false and you gathered quite a bit of “well said gordy” for a post that opened with that inaccurately. x

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Dave (9th Jun 2020 - 17:50:46) Well said Gordy!

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Penny Williamson (14th Jun 2020 - 10:02:09) No wonder we have the now third highest death rate in the world let only infection (that is if you can believe any stats coming out of China) when you look at the crowds of protestors not only yesterday, but recently - no social distancing there. I know there is very deep and understandable feeling by the general public but we are still in the middle of a pandemic.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Jane Adams (14th Jun 2020 - 13:49:38) Penny, The virus has a two week incubation period therefore we wont see any cases from any of the protests in the last few days for another two weeks. Therefore PROTESTORS HAVE NOTHNG TO DO WITH THE UK's TERRIBLE VIRUS STATS UP TO AND INCLUDING JUNE 2020.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - John (14th Jun 2020 - 15:27:22) Lol classic Penny, practising the political tricks of Spin and distraction of her hero’s the selfservatives. Penny’s opening “no wonder the Uk has the highest...” is attempting to blame it all on the BLM and other protesters, and avert the attention from the government. Had you waited two week Penny is wouldn’t have looked so stupid, but the other poster is right, we have only had a week or so of protests en mass, meaning no one from those protests could yet be sick and or clocking numbers on the UK’s terrible stats. Time is one of the many factors of truth, as time is true. You jumped in too early and revealed your hand as always.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - M (14th Jun 2020 - 17:02:19) @Jane Unfortunately I disagree with you completely. The people who are out on the street protesting about anything (I don't target anyone in particular as all are as bad as each other) are, I suspect, the same people who have total disregard for all the measures in place to try and protect the general public against this disease. The UK could have done more to halt this pandemic but without everyone having total respect for others then I'm afraid we will always have a high death rate due to our ethnic mix and very high population density. The government could even have locked us down in January but with idiots like we have on the street at the moment then what chance do we have!

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Joe (14th Jun 2020 - 18:29:55) There are reports on the news of a huge rave held I believe last night which was attendef by upwards of 4 thousand people. One man died from a drug overdose, a woman was raped and 3 people were stabbed. From the photos of the party goers they seemed to be ethnically white. I am flabberghasted having spent months being careful to stick to the " rules"

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - peter (14th Jun 2020 - 21:32:50) We can thank Dom cummings for all of it, neither the protestors or the ravers think its important to obey any of the rules anymore. Dominic's rule breaking is officially supported by our goverment

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Penny Williamson (18th Jun 2020 - 12:31:16) @ John & Jane - It takes five days on average for people to start showing the symptoms of coronavirus, scientists have confirmed. BLM protests took place in Trafalgar Square on as early as May 31, Hyde Park June 3, Parliament Square on June 6 and outside the US Embassy on June 7 with no regard for social distancing so how is my post dated 14 June stupid? Looking at the wider picture, many people have been obeying guidelines of the lockdown. However a substantial number of people have not – just look at pictures on the news over the last few weeks of the overcrowded beaches and beauty spots. Maybe this irresponsible behaviour has contributed to the high numbers of infections and deaths in the UK.

Re: Covid-19: England alone 'has the world's highest mortality rate - Cherry Bakewell (18th Jun 2020 - 18:13:25) The problem is that this Domnishambles of a Government has totally lost the confidence of a large part of the British people. Their shilly shallying, their u turns, their lies, their incompetence, blind loyalty cannot be an excuse for not seeing facts and the truth.

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