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Local Talkback
Talkback is for the residents and businesses in Liphook to voice their views and opinions about local issues and events.

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Brexit Day
- Yellow Bannanna Adrian (30th Sep 2019 14:32:19)

Should we organise a party for the 31 October when we finally throw off the shackles of the Franco-German Alliance called the EU.

We can call it the Glorious 31st. I thing we should make the 31st a national holiday to be celebrated every year.

Re: Brexit Day
- Pete (30th Sep 2019 14:53:56)

Somebody obviously woke up this morning and thought 'not much to do today lets try and stir up a hornets nest'.

Re: Brexit Day
- C (30th Sep 2019 16:10:00)

Why would we celebrate? East Hampshire voted to remain.

Re: Brexit Day
- Greg (30th Sep 2019 16:49:01)

C - 36,575 can celebrate, 37,346 might not want to.

I'd forgotten how close it was. 36.5k ill educated, racist Xenophobes freely wandering the streets and going about their daily lives in East Hants. Wow.

(And I am being sarcastic here, for the avoidance of any doubt.)

Re: Brexit Day
- D (30th Sep 2019 18:22:10)

That's the trouble when you give the uneducated masses too much power, they don't know what to do with it. I'd rather my future was decided by politicians rather than Wayne and Waynetta Slob.

Re: Brexit Day
- Nicky (1st Oct 2019 09:47:39)

D with comments like that one wonders quite who is the uneducated person here?????

Re: Brexit Day
- k (1st Oct 2019 10:47:41)

D have you been listening to the politicians over the last few years - piss up & brewery come to mind! Definitely no sign of organization or creating a common good. I assure you I am not uneducated!!

Re: Brexit Day
- dave lambert (1st Oct 2019 12:17:03)

To all the people that have commented just remember we had a vote and it was won by LEAVE so lets get on and do just that.

Re: Brexit Day
- A (1st Oct 2019 12:36:18)

Ah, the standard leave response. “We won, you lost so just accept it!”
It’s a childish response that sadly does make many leavers come across uneducated. It’s like schoolchildren in the playground. Come back with a decent, fact based argument and you might gain a bit more respect.

Re: Brexit Day
- Brenda (1st Oct 2019 12:57:25)

Lol!!! By less that 3%.........

Re: Brexit Day
- Pete (1st Oct 2019 13:20:56)

At any cost.

Re: Brexit Day
- Brian (1st Oct 2019 13:40:27)

If the result had been the other way round (and 3.78% is greater than 3% when I last looked, not less!!!) then remainers would fully expect the leavers to abide by the decision. There's nothing childish about saying leavers need to accept the result, they really do. To be honest, the remainers refusal to accept the result is the childish reaction. It's like crying when you've been told to go to bed because you don't want to.

3.78% is 1.7 million people. However you look at that, it's significant.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (1st Oct 2019 13:45:29)

I did not vote because I don't think any of us know enough about the subject to decide either way. How many of us remember the UK before the Common Market? Nobody under the age of 60 will I doubt. Those of you about to say I shouldn't voice my opinion if I didn't vote, being a taxpayer for the last 36 years is my right to.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (1st Oct 2019 13:46:03)

I would not trust Boris as far as I could throw him. He has lied, in bed with hedge fund millionaires, that will make a fortune including Rees Mogg. Gives funds to his mistress in the USA, which should go only to companies in the UK. Grabs women, and you leave people trust him that he has your best interest at heart?

Also, would you want no growth in the UK (BoE have put the forecast for a no deal Brexit) The NHS on it's knees because the Doctors and Nurses have left, because they feel unwelcome, don't get me started on the medicine situation and what Mogg said to that Doctor. No jobs, as companies are pulling out right left and center.

But don't worry the rich, will get richer and the poor people will just get more poor

Re: Brexit Day
- D (1st Oct 2019 14:26:15)

Fear not Jacob, one of the selling points for the leave campaign was something along the lines of "the UK would save enough money to build a new hospital every month" or something. I would like to thank the leave voters in advance for all these new hospitals we are going to have. Hmmm!

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (1st Oct 2019 15:45:28)

Brexit: Dover could lose £1bn worth of trade a week under no deal, Tory fringe told - live news

And it only gets better, NOT

Re: Brexit Day
- oldie (1st Oct 2019 16:44:03)

Jacob, you are saying the doctors and nurses have already left Britain because they felt unwelcome.

Can you provide proof of this fact?

I mean the Brexit camp are questioned over their 'facts' too, it works both ways! By 'the Doctors and Nurses have left' I take it you mean all, half... some???

We have been assured the EU cares about us, that doctors and nurses care about us, are angels of mercy, are you saying they went off in a huff already because they didn't like the way the British people voted, to self rule and not be dictated to by the EU?

Britain will remain open for business, it remains to be seen if the EU can get over itself long enough to reciprocate and acknowledge the rule of democracy!

Re: Brexit Day
- D (1st Oct 2019 17:40:54)

With reference to the NHS being "on it's knees" I've been a regular at QA Cosham oncology since last December and my experience is the NHS is in EXCELLENT shape. Don't believe everything bearded Labour party activists gobbing off at the prime minister say. Do you know of a better national health service than ours?

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (1st Oct 2019 18:05:11)

Hello oldie,

My brother is a male nurse, he will confirm to that doctors and nurses, are leaving each day. One nurse was that has been in this country for over 15 years, was told by a lovely gentleman that she was trying to treat that she should go back to her country. Can you imagine, how you would feel? I but surpose, that people think it should be ok to treat people, that have come over as requested by the government to help the NHS out, should be treated like that.

You ask any NHS, worker more and more nurses and doctors are needed because we have made are losing good good people, that are going home.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (2nd Oct 2019 01:24:11)

Where did this happen Jacob? I am a former NHS employee of three hospitals and being a patient in hospital does not give immunity to prosecution for making racist comments against staff. Had your brother reported the patient action would have been taken. Is your brother not aware of that?

Re: Brexit Day
- Facts (2nd Oct 2019 06:04:04)

Hi Oldie,
As a follow up to previous points on staff shortages in the NHS I provide citations, as attached.

Firstly it's important to remember that understaffing is not evenly distributed, and that when journalists, politicians and activists use the words "on its knees" there's an obvious level of hyperbole.

That said, there are significant and growing systemic issues within the NHS. See this article from the British Medical Journal

The King's Trust, Nuffield Health and The Health foundation all point to a number of factors that are causing staff shortages and recruitment issues.

Brexit uncertainty, whilst most certainly not the only issue is a large part of this. These issues aren't happening right now, this is what's important to bear in mind for anyone basing their assessment on anecdotal evidence such as "the NHS seems fine when I use it", these issues are cumulative over a number of years.

A short fall in numbers now, means that in 5 years, when nurses in their late 50s and early 60s start to retire, will lead to a shortage of staff with experience. Bear in mind as well that this isn't just something we can fix by doubling the number we take in in any given year. See this example

2018 - 0 nurses recruited 5,000 retire
2019 - 0 nurses recruited 6,000 retire
2020 - 2000 nurses recruited 4,000 retire
2021 - 4000 nurses recruited 3,000 retire (average experience of new nurses 0.4 years)
2022 - 7000 nurses recruited, 4,000 retire (average experience of new nurses 1.2 years)
2023 - 15,000 new nurses recruited, 5,000 retire (average experience 1.6 years)

Notice that average experience of nurses is now much lower, primarily because pushing recruitment to a single year, or after a prolonged period of low recruitment leads to lack of knowledge and experience in the workforce.

Health isn't just a numbers game, there's a qualitative element that can only be ensured by a steady flow of intake in order to replace the loss of knowledge and experience that goes with retirement (and resignation). Issues like Brexit, which leave a lasting effect, particularly as any new system can only be as good as the old system.

Nurses and doctors aren't just not coming here because of fears of xenophobia, they're not coming here because it's logistically harder. When you don't know if you'll have a visa, or how hard it'll be to go back to your home country when you want to visit family and you don't know what you need to do in order to stay, people get fed up. Bureaucratic red tape, which essentially what Brexit is for a lot of immigrants, will get rid of people faster than a few bigots ever will

Re: Brexit Day
- D (2nd Oct 2019 08:20:09)

Dear Fats, As my time as an NHS employee and most of this year spent in oncology QA Cosbam is only "anecdotal evidence" as you put it then I shan't say any more on the subject. You with your downloaded page from the BMA clearly have far more knowledge on the NHS than I do. My first hand experience counts for nowt. The opinions of my former colleagues must therefore be "anecdotal evidence" as well.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (2nd Oct 2019 08:27:55)

Good morning D

This happened in a Hospital in London, and yes it was reported.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (2nd Oct 2019 09:35:53)

I'm sorry your brother experienced this. Though rare this behaviour shouldn't be tolerated these days. I used to find for every dozen really nice people there was always one really annoying pillock.

Re: Brexit Day
- Facts (2nd Oct 2019 11:10:06)

My apologies D, I think I may have offended you, which I didn't mean to. Anecdotal evidence is useful, and very applicable in areas such as case studies, and policy decisions, but to understand the effects of Brexit you should also consider the large scale as well as the small scale.

Yes your colleagues experience is horrible and wholly unacceptable, especially considering they are trying their best to help, and yes many foreign staff experience some form of attack through their career, which again are unacceptable

That said, I was pointing out that systemic issues will cause another wave of problems with recruitment and retention. On top of this, these issues tend to have a longer period between their cause and effect, which means we may not address them until their too late.

Re: Brexit Day
- Penny Williamson (2nd Oct 2019 17:30:11)

Facts, why are you apologising to D, I think you meant to say Jacob. Jacob, you still haven’t named the hospital – you have just said a Hospital in London. Please elucidate.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (2nd Oct 2019 19:10:57)

I've not named the hospitals I worked in neither, is it relevant? Elucidate? Never heard that word before. Do you have to use highfalutin words which nobody understands?

Re: Brexit Day
- helen (2nd Oct 2019 20:23:31)

Yes I agree it is not relevant which hospital the rascism occured in. Sadly
Brexit has made some people feel it is Ok to make openly rascist remarks, as they also foolishly assumed a vote for Brexit would mean no immigration in the future.

Re: Brexit Day
- Yellow Bannanna Adrian (2nd Oct 2019 20:32:16)

Well said Dave we had a vote and the result was Leave.

As for A and the childish comments and the need for facts. The FACT is we did vote to leave and the politicians should carry out the wishes of the people and get us out.

The interesting thing is that a number of countries are unhappy with the EU and if their politicians had the courage to have a vote and follow it's result the whole EU would implode and disintegrate - that would really be something to celebrate.

By the way if in doubt i did vote and am a leaver - Come on Boris get us out.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (2nd Oct 2019 21:32:14)

With reference to k's rude comments and foul language concerning the events of the past few years concerning brexit, you only have yourself to blame.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (2nd Oct 2019 21:49:32)

Can you elucidate on this Yellow? Tell me this, how will we know we've left? What will change? You obviously considered all this when you voted to leave, so what will change?

Re: Brexit Day
- Yellow Bannanna Adrian (3rd Oct 2019 02:23:36)

A number of things will change our passports will no longer have European Union on them, we will no longer have to submit to European court decisions, we will no longer have to allow foreign ships to plunder our fishing waters, we can have bendy bannannas if we want, we no longer have to impose VAT on some items such as sanitary products, we can stop being one of only 3 countries that are net contributor's to the EU budget.
In the future we will not have to be part of a European Army, or rely on European Union embassies when abroad.
We can be proud to say we are citizens of free and independent United Kingdom. Not a vassal of the bloated European Union.
We did not submit to Napoleon, the Kaiser or Hitler.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (3rd Oct 2019 06:55:34)

Well that little speech sounds like it could have been written by Hitler.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (3rd Oct 2019 07:25:19)

I received my new driving licence yesterday, it still has the EU logo on it.

Re: Brexit Day
- Helen (3rd Oct 2019 08:14:23)

Hitlers' defeat was only gained with the help of the allied forces primarily the American and Russian forces on our own we had Dunkirk. Why should we continually look backwards? Before the EU we had polluted beaches and worse!

Re: Brexit Day
- Pete (3rd Oct 2019 08:24:27)

Yellow etc blah.
Lets debunk some of these well researched "facts" you have thrown at us as I really do find it hilarious that the leave movement has the cheek to call remain project fear.
All EU countries have equal access to all EU waters with the exception of a 12 mile exclusion from the coast of each member state that is controlled by said member.
No Bananas are banned (even the most bendy ones) they are classified into grades like all foodstuffs, it is up to the purchaser which classification they want to buy. I would suggest you blame the buyers not the EU.
I suspect anyone who really thinks this government (who put up vat as soon as they got into power) are going to reduce any vat is living in cloud cuckoo land.
All member states have a veto on any military policy thus making that point void.
We are a sovereign state that 'as recent government activities have shown' is respected more by the EU than our own leader. As a country with full veto status we are hardly a vassal state.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (3rd Oct 2019 09:31:30)

Hear hear. Helen too. All four of my grandparents played their part in World War 2 and I'm proud to be their grandson.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (3rd Oct 2019 09:46:37)

It would be interesting to know the age of the people who voted to leave. I suspect they are under 45 and don't remember the hard times of the 1970s when we were still recovering from the war. Why did we join in the first place? Because in those days it was US who were hard up and looking to the Common Market for help. Strange how as soon as we joined the Health and Safety at work act came in, the Sex Discrimination act came in, shall I go on? But what is this compared to Yellow Banana man's bendy bananas.

Re: Brexit Day
- k (3rd Oct 2019 09:51:23)

D little confused by your response to my post - I am truly sorry if I have caused any offence by the use of the P...word to anybody. I don't see why you consider my post rude - surely calling the majority of those who voted uneducated - is far more offensive. If you truly believe that the politicians are doing a good job, then I question your motivation for not voting. Thanks for the abuse by the way - not for the first time from you! I wrongly thought this forum was an opportunity for the good folk of Liphook to air their opinions!

Re: Brexit Day
- C (3rd Oct 2019 10:21:54)

Numerous benefits to all of us of being in the EU (this is a long list for which I make no apology!!):

Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP

The UK has greater global influence as a member of the EU

The EU provides a counterweight to the global power of the US, Russia and China

With Trump in the White House the UK’s strongest natural allies are France, Germany and our other West European neighbours

Tariff-free trade within the EU

The abolition of non-tariff barriers (quotas, subsidies, administrative rules etc.) among members

Participation in free trade agreements with Japan and Canada as an EU member

The EU accounts for 44% of all UK exports of goods and services

The EU accounts for 53% of all UK imports of goods and services

Cheaper food and alcohol imports from continental Europe

As a member of the EU the UK maintains a say in the shaping of the rules governing its trade with its European partners

3.1 million jobs in the UK are directly linked to exports to the EU

Free movement of labour has helped UK firms plug skills gaps (translators, doctors, plumbers)

Free movement of labour has helped address shortages of unskilled workers (fruit picking, catering)

The Single Market has brought the best continental footballers to the Premier League

The EU accounts for 47% of the UK’s stock of inward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), worth over $1.2 trillion

Access to the EU Single Market has helped attract investment into the UK from outside the EU

No paperwork or customs for UK exports throughout the single market

Price transparency and removal of commissions on currency
transactions across the Eurozone

FDI into the UK has effectively doubled since the creation of the EU Single Market

The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP (less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spending)

No time consuming border checks for travellers (apart from in the UK)

The City of London, as a global financial hub, has acted as a bridge between foreign business and the EU

British banks and insurance companies have been able to operate freely across the EU

Cornwall receives up to £750 million per year from the EU Social Fund (ESF)

Structural funding for areas of the UK hit by industrial decline (South Wales, Yorkshire)

Support for rural areas under the European Agricultural Fund for Regional Development (EAFRD)

EU funding for infrastructure projects in the UK including £122 million for the “Midlands engine” project

Financial support from the EU for over 3,000 small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in the UK

EU funding for the British film industry

EU funding for British theatre, music and dance

EU funding for British sport, including football apprenticeships, tennis and rugby league

Glasgow (1990) and Liverpool (2008) benefitted from being European capitals of culture, stimulating their local economies

EU competition laws protect consumers by combatting monopolistic business practices

Strict controls on the operations of Multinational Corporations (MNCs) in the EU

Human Rights protected under the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights

The death penalty can never be reintroduced as it is incompatible with EU membership

Minority languages such as Welsh and Irish are recognized and protected under EU law

The right to reside in any EU member state

The freedom to work in 28 countries without visa and immigration restrictions

The mutual recognition of professional qualifications has facilitated the free movement of engineers, teachers and doctors across the EU

The mutual recognition of educational diplomas

The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages
(CEFR) has standardized assessment of language proficiency across the EU

The freedom to study in 28 countries (many EU universities teach courses in English and charge lower fees than in the UK)

The Erasmus programme of university exchanges (benefitting 16000 UK students a year)

The freedom to set up a business in 28 countries

The ability to retire in any member state

Pension transferability

The right to vote in local and European Parliamentary elections if resident in any member state

EU laws making it easier for British people to buy property on the continent

The right to receive emergency healthcare in any member state (EHIC card)

Consular protection from any EU embassy outside the EU

The EU has played a leading role in combatting global warming (Paris 2015 climate change conference)

Common EU greenhouse gas emissions targets (19% reduction from 1990 to 2015)

Improvements in air quality (significant reductions in sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides) as a result of EU legislation

Reductions in sewage emissions

Improvements in the quality of beaches and bathing water

EU standards on the quality of drinking water

Restrictions on landfill dumping

EU targets for recycling

Common EU regulations on the transportation and disposal of toxic waste

The implementation of EU policies to reduce noise pollution in urban areas

EU policies have stimulated offshore wind farms

Strict safety standards for cars, buses and trucks

Protection of endangered species and habitats (EU Natura 2000 network)

Strict ban on animal testing in the cosmetics industry

Membership of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) which monitors the quality and safety of medicines (until recently located in London)

13% of EU budget earmarked for scientific research and innovation

The UK receives £730 million a year in EU funding for research

EU funding for UK universities

Cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear energy as a member of Euratom

Minimum paid annual leave and time off work (Working Time Directive)

Equal pay between men and women enshrined in European law since 1957

The right to work no more than 48 hours a week without paid overtime

Minimum guaranteed maternity leave of 14 weeks for pregnant women

Rights to a minimum 18 weeks of parental leave after child birth

EU anti-discrimination laws governing age, religion and sexual orientation

EU rules governing health and safety at work

The rights to collective bargaining and trade union membership are enshrined in EU employment law

The UK enjoys an opt out from the single currency and maintains full control of its borders as a non-member of the Schengen area

Since 1985 the UK has received a budget rebate equivalent to 66% of its net contribution to the EU budget

EU cross-country coordination offers greater protection from terrorists, pedophiles, people traffickers and cyber-crime

The European common arrest warrant

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection

EU consumer protection laws concerning transparency and product guarantees of quality and safety

Improved food labeling

A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives

Cheaper air travel due to EU competition laws

Common EU air passenger rights

Deregulation of the European energy market has increased consumer choice and lowered prices

Mutual recognition of the common European driving license

The introduction of the European pet passport

The abolition of mobile telephone roaming charges

The EU acts as a guarantor of the Irish Good Friday Agreement

A frictionless Irish border

The EU acts as a guarantor of the special status of Gibraltar

The EU helped support and maintain democracy in Spain, Portugal
and Greece from the 1970s and these countries have become major destinations for British tourists

EU membership has helped facilitate intercultural dialogue

Re: Brexit Day
- D (3rd Oct 2019 11:28:13)

k, I too apologize if my comments caused offence. It was a tongue in cheek attempt at satire which has clearly failed miserably. I had no idea so many people identified with Wayne and Waynetta Slob.

Re: Brexit Day
- Pete (3rd Oct 2019 11:52:20)

Nice post C.
It is just a real shame that the remain campaign couldn't put the benefits of the EU in such a clear manner.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (3rd Oct 2019 11:54:57)

Well said C

Re: Brexit Day
- vivienne gabriel (3rd Oct 2019 14:04:13)

Oh my.....roll on 31 October. I have had enough of all this.

Re: Brexit Day
- Penny Williamson (3rd Oct 2019 15:24:01)

Helen, The Battle of Britain started on 10 July 1940 and ended on 31 October 1940. America declared war on Germany and Japan on 7 December 1941 when Pearl Harbour was bombed by the Japanese, long after the Battle of Britain ended.

Nearly 3,000 men of the RAF took part in the Battle of Britain – those who Winston Churchill called “The Few”. While most of the pilots were British, Fighter Command was an international force. Men came from all over the Commonwealth (note the word Commonwealth, peoples we have turned our back on because the EU won’t allow us to trade with them without penalty) and occupied Europe, from New Zealand, Australia, Canada, South Africa, Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), Belgium, France, Poland and Czechoslavakia. There were even some pilots from the neutral – note the word “neutral” United States and Ireland.

During the Battle of Britain, Luftwaffe was dealt an almost lethal blow from which it never fully recovered. I don’t know if we would have won the War without the Americans, neither does anyone else. It was great that they eventually took part, but it must remembered this only happened because of the bombing of Pearl Harbour.

We are a great Country and I am all for a Trading Agreement with Europe which is what it was when it was called the Common Market, but I do not want to be dictated to by them and told what we can and cannot do. That is what Brexit is about.

I personally feel that there are other countries such as Italy and France watching very carefully and when we leave I think it is more than likely they will attempt to do the same thing. Already in France there is a movement called Frexit.

Perhaps this is the best thing that could happen – disintegration - and like the Phoenix a much fairer Common Market will rise from the ashes.

Re: Brexit Day
- Pete (3rd Oct 2019 16:36:08)

Or maybe perhaps we should have embraced the idea of the EU instead of always keeping it at arms length with one eye constantly in the past. Our attitude as a nation seems to have been reminiscent of the Millwall football chant "everybody hates us we don't care" which incidentally has always been far from true but seems to becoming a more likely scenario.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (3rd Oct 2019 17:29:26)

Please can I point out, That the 2nd World War was from 1939 to 1945. The world has changed, the UK has changed we do not have a Empire anymore.

We are a very little island, which will be in the back of the queue on trade agreements, Unemployment will be sky high again,interest rate will be to.
and we will sell our soul to the mad man that thinks he is doing a good job of running the USA, but I suppose we have a mad man running the UK

Re: Brexit Day
- Helen (3rd Oct 2019 18:33:20)

Penny you have re inforced my point- the Allied forces came to help after we declared war on Germany, we did not win the second world war without the help from other countries including most of the other european countries and Russia who did not remain neutral. The Battle of Britain took place early in the war it a glorious moment yes but we had help throughout the remaining 5 years of war and need allies now as well.
We are not in a wartime situation so why hark back?

Re: Brexit Day
- George (3rd Oct 2019 19:38:13)

Why don't you lot all make a plan to meet up down the pub? Then you can bore each other to death and get off this forum - which should, surely, be for local issues

Re: Brexit Day
- D (3rd Oct 2019 22:08:30)

Well it's more interesting than a barking dog, a homeless chicken and a lady who wants to hire Santa for an hour.

Re: Brexit Day
- k (4th Oct 2019 09:34:42)

Certainly don't count myself as any kind of SLOB - thanks for the apology though!!

Re: Brexit Day
- J (4th Oct 2019 11:24:54)

vivienne: 31st October is far from the end (if we indeed leave) but just the beginning of years of more negotiations! It's very naïve to think we'll leave then and hey presto everything is done!

Re: Brexit Day
- Penny Williamson (4th Oct 2019 12:22:37)

Helen you brought the Second World War into the discussion. All Yellow Bannanna Adrian said was that we were not defeated by Napoleon, the Kaiser or Hitler. European countries were forced to fight in the WW2 as the whole of Europe was under threat from Hitler. Countries that were part of the Commonwealth such as Canada, New Zealand, Australia and India to name a few joined us to fight Hitler not because they were under threat but because they wanted to. We have rewarded these countries by turning our back on them with regard to trade because the EU won’t let us. Incidentally neither you nor anyone else knows what would have happened if America had not come into the war. We might still have defeated Hitler without their help. I know I will get criticism for “harking back to the old days”, but a great deal can be learnt and gained from studying history. History does repeat itself but the sad thing is human beings don’t listen or learn.

Re: Brexit Day
- liz (4th Oct 2019 13:05:28)


Who says this forum is just for local issues? In any event Brexit affects us all. If you don't like it don't read it - or have you nothing better to do?

Re: Brexit Day
- Helen (4th Oct 2019 13:09:40)

Hi Penny, it is all very well to preach at people about what they know, did you realise that for every one American soldier who died fighting Hitler, another 80 Russian soldiers died in the same cause? Propaganda has been fed to us to airbrush their contribution from history books here.
Perhaps when the dust has settled and brexit is no longer a news item, you will have time to read an unbiased account of what really happened.
And you forgot the contribution Indian and African soldiers made to defeating Hitler. We borrowed a lot of money from America to fund the war in Europe which has still not been repaid.

Re: Brexit Day
- Penny Williamson (4th Oct 2019 14:02:58)

Helen re: your first para - your point being? When I named countries that had supported us I said I was naming but a few.

Re: Brexit Day
- Pete (4th Oct 2019 15:28:08)

Sorry Penny I have several issues with your last post.
Firstly Yellow blah certainly did bring WW2 into the discussion as soon as he mentioned Hitler.

As regards countries wanting to fight, India had no choice they were still under British control. New Zealand had Japanese and German Ships and U boats active in their waters and were under threat of invasion, Canada could see that if Hitler wasn't stopped world domination was his goal. None of these countries had full independent sovereign status till after WW2.

We trade with all of these countries either bilaterally or through the EU (EU and Australia are currently negotiating a free trade deal that we could very well miss out on).

I can wholeheartedly agree that history repeats itself this can be seen very easily in this country as we seemingly are quite happy to sleepwalk into an autocracy, when one person tries to override the democratic system of parliament it is dangerous times.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (4th Oct 2019 18:03:22)

Does coming out of Europe mean the Euro millions lottery will cease in this country? If it doesn't then surely the participation of this lottery in the UK will reduce by just over 50%?

Re: Brexit Day
- Penny Williamson (5th Oct 2019 11:41:11)

Pete I understand your post but do not agree with the slant. What I was trying to say is that these countries Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India entered the war because of loyalty above all else so please don’t belittle that by saying that India was under British Rule which I agree it was, and that the other countries were under threat.

New Zealand declared war on Germany at 9.30 pm on the 3rd of September 1939, thus entering World War II. New Zealand assisted Britain, as New Zealanders still felt loyal to their 'mother country'. New Zealand provided men for service in the British Royal Air Force and Royal Navy. New Zealanders did not feel threatened by Japan and Germany until 1940.

With regard to Canada although confederation in 1867 led to an enlarged Dominion with increased autonomy over domestic affairs, Canada still remained a colony within the British Empire and was thus subordinate to the British Parliament, until the enactment of the Statute of Westminster in 1931. WW2 started in 1939.

Australia became an independent nation on 1 January 1901 when the British Parliament passed legislation allowing the six Australian colonies to govern in their own right as part of the Commonwealth of Australia. The Commonwealth of Australia was established as a constitutional monarchy and on March 3, 1986, is the day Australia achieved complete independence from Britain. Having said that Australia like New Zealand at the start of WW2 felt loyalty and wanted to support the UK in their fight against Hitler.

With regard to your final paragraph, democracy would be undermined with catastrophic results, if the result of the Referendum which all parties said they would honour, was overridden.

Re: Brexit Day
- MikeyB (5th Oct 2019 21:26:39)

C, that’s a very long list and even if all of it was down to being in the EU, I would expect something significant in return for a net contribution of £9 Billion in 2018.

Re: Brexit Day
- Diane (6th Oct 2019 10:11:21)

Could you please explain what extra things you think should be required for the payment and what is being gained by leaving the EU

Re: Brexit Day
- MikeyB (7th Oct 2019 21:21:32)

Most of the things listed don’t actually cost anything. Where does all of our money go? Nobody knows. Let’s leave the EU and stop wasting billions on nothing.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (8th Oct 2019 07:16:32)

"Nobody knows"? what kind of answer is that? Does that not prove my earlier post of none of us know enough about this to make a decision?

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (8th Oct 2019 12:20:03)

Equally, D, "none of us know enough about this to make a decision" - what kind of answer is this? Are you suggesting we have to remain just because we don't know enough to either stay or leave? Surely the best solution in this context is to leave and at least retain our ability to govern ourselves...

Re: Brexit Day
- D (8th Oct 2019 13:24:31)

I refer you to my first post of "uneducated masses".

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (8th Oct 2019 15:17:31)

D - what this process has clearly shown is that our politicians are no more clever than the "uneducated masses" to which you refer. The days of the highly educated, altruistic, wise and experienced politician are long gone. This lot are no more intelligent than the average UK resident, just self serving, power crazy and ultimately after the cash.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (8th Oct 2019 16:07:11)

We have always had wealthy rich politicians, they were wealthy long before they went into politics. Indeed, some have even taken a pay cut going into politics. As for the current mess over bexit, yes it is but we have never left the EU before so of course it's going to be a mess. Those who voted to leave must accept responsibility for that and stop blaming politicians.

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (8th Oct 2019 17:40:22)

D - you made me laugh out loud there. I've read and heard an awful lot about brexit and your comment is the most ridiculous of them all. This set of politician's behaviour is entirely their own responsibility and to blame the 52% is utterly ludicrous. They all promised to honour the vote and those that aren't doing so, especially those who's own electorates voted to leave, are a disgrace. They know they won't get voted back in which is why they resist a GE. They also don't want brexit as it takes away their potential future European parliament gravy train.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (8th Oct 2019 23:53:30)

Criticising the democratically elected government of this country achieves nothing unless you can suggest a better course of action Gorky.

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (9th Oct 2019 11:06:20)

D - How about a general election?

Out of interest, do you think the language coming out of the EU today is acceptable, from an unelected Chancellor at that! These people aren't our friends, they aren't sorry to see us go they simply know their EU model fails if we leave and are trying everything in the book to prevent it.

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (9th Oct 2019 11:52:57)

Before anybody jumps on the above, this is purely at a political level. I've lived, worked and holidayed in Europe and have absolutely no problem on an individual / personal level. It's the EU that doesn't work, not being European.

Re: Brexit Day
- John (9th Oct 2019 12:00:40)

The E U are quite rightly trying to sort the problem with the Irish border. Our Parliament also need to vote on the deal and approve it which they have not done for the last 3 years

Re: Brexit Day
- D (9th Oct 2019 12:51:15)

I'm not sure what your problem is with our unelected chancellor. All cabinet posts are unelected but appointed by the prime minister of the day as they always have been. At a general election we vote for our mp not the prime minister. Gordon Brown was an unelected prime minister after all. General election? Not a problem at all, I really can't see Michael Foot number two and his bunch of lefty loonies being elected can you? (You do remember Michael Foot don't you, Gaudy?).

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (9th Oct 2019 15:25:42)

D - who's "Gaudy"? I'm wearing plain grey and black today if you must know.

Regardless, I'm astonished anyone could be comfortable with the language used by Juncker today. He has stated that Britain has committed the "ORIGINAL SIN" (my caps) in trying to leave the EU. That's terrifying, why would anyone in their right mind want to be tied to an organisation like this?

Re: Brexit
- Penny Williamson (9th Oct 2019 16:33:12)

D your continued misspelling of Gordy’s name is infantile in the extreme I like Gordy have travelled in and had dealings with Europe and Europeans - no problem - but I do have a problem with the Commission unelected undemocrattic unaccountable corrupt

Re: Brexit Day
- paul (9th Oct 2019 18:54:45)

I think we will leave the E.U. in the near future in a very acrimonious fashion. In about seven years time there will be different government, and could be a vote winner to campaign to rejoin the E.U. What a waste...we are a great country, get on with it, in a global market and we will be all be prosperous.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (9th Oct 2019 22:03:22)

Before Penny criticizes my spelling I think she should check her punctuation. The absence of a comma after the word "I" gives the whole sentence (and it is one whole sentence with no punctuation at all when it should be at least two" a completely different meaning to what she is trying to put across. Junior school standard.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (10th Oct 2019 08:33:07)

Good morning Penny,

I think you are talking about the Tory's when you say "unelected undemocrattic unaccountable corrupt"

Dear dear Boris has handed in a letter to the London Assembly and asks them not to publish it, but he hasn't answered the question!

I await your response

Re: Brexit Day
- D (10th Oct 2019 09:00:44)

Going back to Gordy's (is that better, Penny?) suggestion of a general election. We've had two in the last four years. We still have the same unelectable opposition (the Labour party, don't know if it's new Labour, old Labour or not really sure Labour but it is Labour) so what would yet another election achieve? You think Corbin could do a better job? It would be the hyper inflation of the 1970s all over again.

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (10th Oct 2019 09:28:11)

D - it's very simple. We drain the swamp. Plenty of MPs working against their constituent's views in the house and they'll get cleared out. And they know it.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (10th Oct 2019 10:01:34)

Even better, why don't you get together with like-minded people and form your own party? Mr. Farage did and despite years of ridicule ended up doing very well to be fair. He achieved what he set out to do.

Re: Brexit Day
- Older oldie (10th Oct 2019 10:44:43)

Boris is doing the job of the result of the referendum. So you all should stop bitching and get on with your life’s. Thank goodness we will be out on the 31st then we can get on and run our country again. With Germany in recession France not far behind the whole EU is collapsing. We can show them what we are made of and go forward and trade with the world again..

Re: Brexit Day
- Pete (10th Oct 2019 12:24:16)

Just a note to all those that think we will get a preferential trade deal from the US. Look at the coverage today ref the Harry Dunn case and you will soon see the disdain in which the current US government hold the UK.
Special relationship my backside.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (10th Oct 2019 13:56:43)

Boris is a puppet prime minister, controlled by his puppet master Dominic Cummings. We did not vote for him, he is doing the bidding of less than half of the population of the UK.

The vote needs to go back to the people, we now all know what Bexit means and need the final say. In the news yesterday, he even said if we do have an election, he won't run it as Bexit campaign.

Re: Brexit Day
- Paul (10th Oct 2019 17:07:22)

Before all you do gooders think Brexit is a good thing think about livelyhoods....another Liphook business closing down, my view because they source their flowers from abroad and obviously won't be as easy when we leave.

Re: Brexit Day
- Rav (10th Oct 2019 20:48:29)

Re ideas on trade with the US, you should have a listen to Bonnie Greer about Ireland on Question time (Video available online) in which she wonders why the English talk about Ireland as if they own Ireland, she explains rightly that Ireland owe the UK nothing and also that the US is Irish, Ireland has a special place in the heart of all americans and that if the UK thinks its going to get a deal with the US that shafts Ireland then the UK has another thing coming.

I would add as well, that all the politicans are playing their own game, Trump only wants from himself, if anything he is happy to pretend a deal is on the way to the UK but in reality its a deal that will suit him and the US. The UK falling further from grace by way off Brexit actually suits the other big players more, it removes the UK as an obstacle and make it more of an underling which the big boys can play with. Putin/Trump etc have been laughing at Brexit since the beginning.

The UK used to be a superpower up until the suez crisis and its on steady decline since

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (11th Oct 2019 11:14:45)

Jacob, good point - less than half of the UK population voted to leave the EU. The unpleasant fact you choose to ignore is that 1.7 million less than the less than half of the population you quote voted to remain. Ergo the result. You can't try and spin this like the majority want to remain, it was and simply is, not true. Regardless of this, were we to have another vote would you accept a second leave vote? Please don't answer by saying Remain would win as that's far from certain. Assume leave prevails again, would you accept the result this time? At the risk of answering for you, I'm pretty certain you won't.

Re: Brexit Day
- oldie (11th Oct 2019 14:00:10)

Please quit the nonsense talk that says because not everybody voted therefore the vote was won by less than half the potential voters (inferring it is somehow diminished).

You cannot get anywhere close to 100% voter turnout except perhaps by sending armed men to every door with machine guns in hand. The whole point of freedom must include freedom not to vote.

Personally I chose not to vote because I wanted to exercise that freedom. Not a semi freedom that would force me to turn up and vote 'none of the above' since I did not wish to vote 'none of the above'.

I simply accepted that I wasn't knowledgeable enough to foresee every pro and con, every twist and turn over the next twenty years and make an informed decision there and then. I didn't oppose either side, I accepted fate and that either way it would work out in the end, I would accept the result 100% and make the best of it in support of Great Britain.

I think for the sake of democracy, that's the most important thing. So please argue your corner but don't drag the non voters into the equation, the vote was fair.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (11th Oct 2019 15:33:32)

Hear hear.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jack (11th Oct 2019 15:58:03)

Oldie, the vote was far from fair. The debate ahead of the vote included falsehoods and xenophobic propaganda by members of the leave campaign. This misled a part of the population suffering from the effects of austerity and also the jingoistic, who had been led to believe that the peaceful institutions of the EU are the root of all evil by billionaire newspaper magnates with their own agendas. Leave-leaning MPs thwarted efforts to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year olds despite the precedent being set in the Scottish referendum just two years previously - so either the Brexit result or the Indyref result is unsafe as a result, depending on your view. The question set was so binary and uninformative that is was impossible for anyone at all to make a balanced and considered judgement, as you identified yourself.

We now know very much more than we did in 2016. We know that our net contribution to the EU buys us far more in economic activity than it costs. We know that our government wants us to leave the Single Market (which we didn't in 2016), taking away rights of individuals to live and work on the continent and causing real hardship for many businesses. We know that that hard-right DUP gets a veto on arrangements for the Irish border, despite holding the minority view on Brexit in NI. A confirmatory referendum on whatever Boris gets agreed (or the original deal otherwise) is the only fair and democratic way to resolve the matter - a binding referendum based on facts and not unicorns. I do concede that the hate from the far right will be troublesome in the campaign, but it is troublesome now - that genie is well and truly out. As a remainer, I will respect the result of such a referendum. If the British still want out despite now knowing how it affects their rights, the economic damage, a likely split in the UK family of nations and the effect on our standing in the world, well then so be it.

Re: Brexit Day
- Jacob (11th Oct 2019 15:58:50)

Good afternoon

Gordy, in answer to your question "Assume leave prevails again, would you accept the result this time?" You can not answer for me.

I think if another peoples vote was taken, as we now what both sides of the argument is and people said to leave, I would except it.

People were lead up the garden path, on both sides. Parliament can not agree, so give it back to us to vote on. At the end of the day Gordy it people like you and me that are going to have to live with outcome.

I don't trust Boris, and I don't like Corbyn all politicians are out to feather there own bed.


Re: Brexit Day
- A.R (11th Oct 2019 17:24:12)

To all those arguing against Brexit, you are arguing after the fact. No matter how much you try to discredit the outcome of the referendum it will not change the fact that it happened. Learning how to deal with it is a far better solution than playing the blame game. Learning disappointment in life can sometimes be cruel, if you disagree, but learning acceptance shows maturity and decency for the opposite opinion.
To throw accusations of racism, ignorance, etc, is rude and condescending and shows the manner of character that one is.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (11th Oct 2019 18:03:33)

You leavers won't be laughing when you can't get Belgian chocolate, French fries, German mustard and Swiss rolls no more. So there!

Re: Brexit Day
- Older oldie (11th Oct 2019 19:30:41)

D what a load of rubbish . English mustard is the best good old English Chips wonderful as for Belgium chocolate it’s bad for you . As said before the EU is totally in a mess completely on its knees the sooner we leave the better.As for not knowing what we voted for we certainly did we want our country back. We do not want to take orders from the EU we want to run our country however we want.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (11th Oct 2019 19:50:34)

It was a JOKE Oldie. Funny how you are the only one who didn't get it. I won't do the one about Spanish omelettes. Do you struggle with the the security question when you do your posts?

Re: Brexit Day
- Older oldie (11th Oct 2019 22:12:02)

Yes D I did. Twig that’s why I hit you hard because I knew you would bite. The rest was for the remainers they need to accept the result because it is going to happen.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (12th Oct 2019 09:08:18)

You're absolutely right. We must accept the fact that we are leaving Europe and everything that goes with it. What will happen to the channel tunnel I wonder? If we are severing all links with Europe then it must be ALL links, we can't pick and choose and hang on to the bits we like. What about Euro millions? Surely the participation in this country must go down by just over 50%? If it doesn't I've only one word, hypocrites.

Re: Brexit Day
- Gordy (12th Oct 2019 12:31:07)

D. Doh! We're leaving the EU which is a disgustingly overbloated beurocratic disaster. We're not leaving Europe! With respect, your posts are becoming increasingly bonkers.

Re: Brexit Day
- D (12th Oct 2019 16:54:42)

I refer you to my earlier post of accepting responsibility. Doh? Musician are you? Bonkers? Says the one who talks of "draining the swamp".

Re: Brexit Day
- Adrian (13th Oct 2019 01:03:59)

It will be juicy steaks and banana custard night as we party and powder away in the pub 🍌

Re: Brexit Day
- D (13th Oct 2019 08:27:16)

The irony of this leaving the EU referendum is, it must be the most democratic event in British history. A majority vote rather than the amount of seats won in an election. But it has left behind the biggest mess we have ever seen which, as has been demonstrated on this website, no one wants to accept responsibility for. All we can do is support our democratically elected politicians as they make the best they can of the situation, and pray to God that none of the participants on this thread ever go into politics. Thank you.

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