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Local Talkback
Talkback is for the residents and businesses in Liphook to voice their views and opinions about local issues and events.

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- WENDY (4th Sep 2019 @ 10:09:40)

OK, so, how about we have a sensible and civilised discussion on here about the state of our country. No snide remarks, just a discussion about our hopes and dreams for the planet.

I, for one, am so worried about the future for my great grandchildren, anybody got any ideas about what we can all do? I do what I can, with recycling, picking up plastic, giving to charity shops etc, is there anything else I can do? Please, as I've said, let's make this a sensible, caring discussion.

- Diane (4th Sep 2019 @ 10:58:27)

How about everyone who shops at Sainsbury's or any other supermarket and can afford to, buys one extra item and puts it in the food bank box.

- Dawn Hoskins (4th Sep 2019 @ 13:25:01)

We actively try to avoid plastics - which is impossible in most supermarkets. Sainsbury's do now have a 'bring your own container' policy - however the majority of their fruit and vegetables are still all wrapped in plastic so that that defeats the object.

We've instituted simple things like swapping over to solid soap and shampoo bars to avoid the bottles, we use butter in paper wrapping instead of margarine tubs which can't be recycled in our area.

We make a point of challenging any businesses or event organizers that sell single-use water bottles or cups. We take our own mugs and bottles out with us and take them in to coffee shops to be rinsed and refilled rather than use their disposable cups.

We only use clothes made of natural fibres, all plastic-based clothing material sheds microfibres into our watercourses. Polyester, poly-cotton nylon, acrylic - may be easer to wash, quicker to dry and not need so much ironing but all of them are terrible for the environment.

We also swapped out plastic toothbrushes for bamboo. As each item or product comes to the end of its life we look for an eco alternative and even the most simple things [like dog poo bags] can be replaced by totally biodegradable non-plastic alternatives.

We try to buy local produce from independent sellers to avoid food-miles however this is tricky as we have to drive in our own car for a much longer time to get to these places.

If everyone did even these few simple things it would make a huge difference.

The biggest change, however, has to be a political one and therein lies the problem. Politicians are focused on the short-term, but saving the planet is an expensive long-term issue that almost all private businesses object to. Funds into political parties come from private business so no politician [apart from the greens] will put forward ideas that will get them voted out of a job.
We should all start to make changes in our shopping habits and make it plain that if retailers won't change we will remove our custom and take it to places that will.

We should be encouraging car-sharing to a much larger degree also and investing in renewable energy. If every rooftop had photovoltaic tiles and solar panels just think how much better off the planet would be. Also considering we live on an island surrounded by the sea I don't understand why tidal power is not used more.

Every single one of us needs to be responsible and make personal changes. We have become used to living in a 'disposable' society because it is easy and we have become lazy, but it only takes a few moments to think about something as simple as your grocery shopping. Have a look in your basket/trolley if it is plastic put it back and ask the shopkeeper/supermarket where the sustainable options are. If everyone did this - they would soon change. But it has to be consumer-driven - they will not make expensive changes on their own as it hurts their shareholder's wallets.

- B (4th Sep 2019 @ 13:54:23)

Change can only happen if the public vote with their feet and stop buying from supermarkets until they cut their plastic use.

As someone who lives on their own it’s staggering the sheer volume of plastic I put in the bin on a weekly basis.

- Pete (4th Sep 2019 @ 14:39:20)

Sainsburys have a plastic recycling bank that takes most plastics including margarine tubs, they have also recently installed another one for soft plastics (film, bags etc). The only problem is it gets full very quickly.

- John (4th Sep 2019 @ 15:26:03)

Most plastic ends up in landfill. Not much is suitable to be turned into something else.

We need to persuade supermarkets to need less wrapping. Also avoid products made with Palm Oil. That is destroying the planet as well.

- Bush (4th Sep 2019 @ 15:50:19)

Plastic is ubiquitous. It's highly visible in supermarket packaging, but vastly greater amounts are spewed out in other, less visible industries. The majority of which ends up as micro plastics, free-floating in the water, on land and the air.

- Passfield resident (4th Sep 2019 @ 17:52:48)

Lloyds Chemist have started putting some prescriptions in large plastic bags instead of paper -their head office customer services told me the plastic bags cannot be recycled at home-how stupid is that?

- Defense (4th Sep 2019 @ 18:48:41)

@John On the point regarding palm oil, this is not strictly true. Yes palm oil is leading to deforestation, particularly in areas of high ecological value. However it's important to bare in mind, palm oil as a crop yields the highest amount of oil per amount of land used and as such, is much less destructive than palm oil alternatives in terms of sheer land mass occupied.

Cutting palm oil is much more nuanced, where possible you should attempt to use products which omit oil entirely and where oil is necessary (and in some case this is unavoidable) you should use sustainably sourced palm oil.

- John (5th Sep 2019 @ 00:13:59)

Defense, there are plenty of alternatives to Palm oil which do not lead to destroying
our much needed rain forests. It is the 2nd biggest export from Cote d'ivoire but has lead to terrible deforestation.

- WENDY (5th Sep 2019 @ 10:29:47)

Well, thank you all so much for the replies, how lovely to have a discussion to try and help our world. Thank you Dawn, so many helpful tips. And I hadn't realised you can recycle plastic in Sainsburys, I shall certainly be doing that in the future. Any one else got anything to say? every small idea, small or large is helpful.

- AA (5th Sep 2019 @ 11:25:35)

Use your library! We try to buy what we can second hand, particularly kids toys to extend their life. Guildford library (a trek, I know...) are starting a library of things so users can borrow items such as tools instead of purchasing them for a single use. Sounds like a great community initiative!

- Dawn Hoskins (5th Sep 2019 @ 12:22:42)

Yes - this is my point about plastics in the clothing industry. Throughout the entire life of the garments, micro-plastics are spewed into our watercourses. Imagine every single household washing machine emitting fibres which are so tiny that they get through the drainage and sewage treatment plants. Every single house, in every village, and town, and city. If there was a specific need for it I could understand but natural clothing from cotton and bamboo etc has always been available.

Some of the major items that are clogging up landfill are disposable nappies and ladies sanitary towels - neither of which can be recycled and will be hanging around for thousands of years. There are loads of great options for children's nappies now and as the new ranges of specialist period pants (and other sanitary products) mean that there really is no need for ladies to keep buying into the habitual behavior and reach for plastic products. We have used both Wuka Periods Pants and also Bloomers pads but there are many other great products out there. This cuts out plastic, but also saves you a fortune!

Although we still have residual plastic lunch boxes in the house, as they are coming to the end of their lives we are replacing with stainless tiffin tins and stainless water bottles. We are replacing clingfilm with paper snack bags and also plan to get some beeswax wraps which I have seen, and they look brilliant. Although these things may be more expensive than the plastic options they last a very long time and are not meant to be disposable in the way that plastic products are.

A friend has given me a whole bag of laundry soap pods, but I haven't used them yet, but we should also be having a talk about the amounts of detergent and chemicals being put down the drain in residential households.

I read recently (I don't know if it is true) that although we have been producing plastic for decades, it really only become a popular choice in the '50s but that that now - we have become so used to living in this 'disposable' culture that about 99% of the plastic in the ocean and landfill has been manufactured only in the last 10 - 15 years.

As a child, I don't remember plastic bottles lining supermarket shelves, fizzy pop came in glass bottles, water came out of taps, greens came from the grocers and you picked up only what you wanted, meat was wrapped in paper from the butchers, snacks, cake, crisps etc ..that was what you made in your own kitchen. We took our shopping home in a wicker basket and if we needed a bag we were given a paper one. We need to get back to this - certainly, no supermarket should be permitted to use plastic bags. If you want a bag take your own or the supermarkets must use zero-plastic alternatives.

If you are driving through Milford, you can go to Secrets which ha a re-fill station. They call it Secrets 'Unwrapped'. It is a take your own container area. There is also one in Fleet. Both of these have a good range of alternative products like cotton buds and straws and other things like that.

There are loads of alternatives to plastic but you need to make a choice to switch. Browse the Plastic Free Shop for ideas that you may be able to accommodate in your lives:

As far as the different types of plastics in our shops, this article is interesting to read if you want info:

Ultimately, it is no good waiting for someone else to fix the problem - we ALL must do it ourselves by forcing large manufactures and supermarkets to change. Just think about every item you put in your trolley - and STOP paying for plastic bags.

- WENDY (6th Sep 2019 @ 09:56:25)

Once again, thank you for such sensible and helpful answers, especially from you Dawn, maybe you could write on here regularly with helpful suggestions and with so many things we can do.

- Penny Williamson (6th Sep 2019 @ 14:28:10)

My mother who died five years ago in her nineties re-cycled everything possible before re-cycling had been thought of. So I was brought up in an environment of “waste not, want not”, re-using, repairing and re-cycling everything possible.

As a consequence it is almost in my DNA so I do all the usual and obvious things to help the planet and the environment.

However there is one very important way we can help the environment and that is to help the bees. Bees have been in decline for decades due to excessive use of pesticides and sprays and also because humans take the honey and replace this with sugar. That is like taking good nutritious food away and feeding a Macdonalds and chips. It puts the bees under stress as it would to humans if someone took half the food out of their freezer and the bees have to work extra hard to replace it thus not giving them time to relax, clean and tidy the hive.

Also putting bees in square hives is not a natural habitat. Now I know it is not possible to stop this on a large scale, but what we can do is put “bee logs” in our gardens. However don’t confuse this with the “bee logs” and “bee houses” that have lots of holes in them as these are for solitary bees. They are beneficial as well, but the hollowed out “bee logs” will attract a swarm of bees.

Once you have the hollowed out log, and there are companies which make them, hoist this up as much as 20 feet in a tree and you will be surprised how quickly a swarm will find it. You will then not only be helping the bees but your garden as well. I do accept that if you have a very small garden this might not be possible, in which case try the “bee houses” with holes in them for the solitary bees.

Also please don’t worry about having bees in your garden. They are non aggressive. I have a long line of hardy fuscias which are full of bees. I regularly mow the lawn next to them, sometimes brushing the foliage and I have never been stung. The bees seem to sense I am not a threat and ignore me. Obviously at the risk of stating the obvious if you or a member of your family are allergic to bee stings this would not be for you.

- Jenna (6th Sep 2019 @ 15:05:56)

Where can you buy shampoo bars, bamboo toothbrushes etc please?

- Jen (6th Sep 2019 @ 20:58:23)

Jenna, this site has lots of environmentally friendly products.

- Katie (7th Sep 2019 @ 08:42:18)

Giving over at least part of your garden to nature is something that takes no effort at all. You may have to get used to it looking a bit untidy but letting grass grow long, leaving piles of leaves and tree debris is fantastic for local wildlife.

Planting a garden that needs less water and using a water butt is great. Not using pesticides or fungicides is also important.

All of these things mean less gardening effort in the long term but accepting less perfection. My lawn is currently long but full of baby frogs!

We can all play our part but ultimately it will be the legislators who have to force changes in big business. We need to think about this when we choose who gets our vote and to keep contacting our MP’s and demanding the changes we want to see.

- Dawn Hoskins (7th Sep 2019 @ 10:35:46)

Loads of places do solid blocks now, on the high street you can try Lush and Boots.If you google solid shampoo you will find loads of different brands.

As the blocks are paraben-free (and chemical-free full stop), they are much better for your scalp and hair. It takes some getting used to as they don't lather up like regular chemical-based shampoos. Also, not just for your hair - you can get face bars and body bars which are soap-free. Traditional soap can be very drying (they change the PH values of the skin, , many people are allergic to the chemicals used, and most old-fashioned products are not ethical.

My top tip for solid bars: We had a shower scrunchie ages ago and when it was at the end of its life I made litte hanging pouches out of the scrunchie material. You leave the block in the bag which hangs in the bathroom or shower. So no need for a soap dish, you just lather it up in your hands when it is inside the hanging pouch.

Here is an article to get you inspired:

- James (8th Sep 2019 @ 10:26:00)

The Bran tub in Petersfield do soaps without any packaging at all. A friend has told me they will be soon be selling all their staples such as oats, nuts and beans where you will be able to fill your own containers.

Lots of good suggestions here. We should also discuss transport.... getting out of our cars and walking and cycling. Good for our health too.

Eating less meat and dairy. If you eat meat every day, maybe trying first with a meat free day once a week ?

- Dee K (9th Sep 2019 @ 21:00:41)

Well done Wendy for starting this discussion off. Is there still a group in Liphook who are collecting milk bottle tops.

- Editor (19th Sep 2019 @ 13:18:24)

We have just been to Aylings Garden Centre, near Trotton, for lunch (fabulous by the way), we then had a look around the concessions in huts near the entrance and came across Linzi and Tanya who produce and sell solid soaps and shampoos.

Prices were very reasonable and came away with several items to try.

They also have a table at the monthly Liphook Market in the Millennium Hall.

01730 825716

- Sheila_g (19th Sep 2019 @ 16:04:57)

Penny Williamson. Please don't take this the wrong way but I am concerned about your comments re. bees. Are you a bee keeper and where have you got your information from? We all know that bees are under threat but you seem to be suggesting this is partly because of bee keepers themselves. They do not "put bees in square hives" as you suggest - I don't believe you can train bees to stay in one place. The bees are clearly happy in that environment or they would surely swarm and find a home in one of your logs instead. Also, I've spoken to bee keepers and they do not remove all the honey from a hive. Sugar solution is used over winter to top up food supplies if required but a supply of honey is normally left by the bee keeper to last them through the winter. Or are you just talking about irresponsible bee keepers or large scale industrial bee keeping? Have you verified your views with any bee keeping association? I am worried that you have painted bee keepers in a bad light and that is not fair, the vast majority are working to preserve and improve bee populations in a sustainable way which is to the benefit of us all.

- D (19th Sep 2019 @ 19:16:11)

On the issue of "one use plastics" I saw a lot of them in Q.A. Cosham earlier this year when a close relative was on chemotherapy for six months. Would you deny all these cancer patients their treatment because of your principles? You wouldn't if it were one of your family. On the wider issue of the planet and pollution, mankind (and womankind) has always made pollution. We would not be where we are now had we not. It is not so much the amount of pollution we produce, more the amount of PEOPLE producing pollution. Yet we still breed like rats.

- oldie over breakfast (20th Sep 2019 @ 09:46:23)

WARNING: Half Baked Alternative Perspective Over Late Breakfast Alert! (if you are easily offended look away now.) these thoughts do not necessarily reflect the views of the author, the publisher or the government. No animals were harmed in the writing of this article. Aerosol free, carbon offset, gender neutral, sorry no plastic toys included.

The big problem of course is people who are trying to stop climate change, we all know that humans are the biggest threat to wildlife, forests etc, but what people don't realise is that global warming could be part of the solution.

I read yesterday that in Asia the bird population has dropped by a more than a third recently due to human activity, that Europe has already cleared over 90% of it's ancient forests in chase of a quick profit, that the rest of the world is racing to catch up, that Russia, China, Iran are lining up on one side for a WW3 with America, S Arabia and Britain using ever more explosive missiles and this scale of global vandalism is predicted to increase as population and industrialisation rockets in this century and billions of people across the world demand their right to have the same, or better, standard of consumer lifestyle as the west, which their politicians are promising to them. The knock on effect of this will be catastrophic.

In fact rather than teach our children to be terrified of the threatened 1-2% 'worst case scenario' increase in global temperatures over the next 100 years (which would result in several low lying cities needing to relocate or do what they're doing now, build better flood defences), we could actually see this as a potential saviour of the worlds wildlife (perhaps at the expense of ever increasing human populations). For every area that could (worst case predictions) get too hot or flooded, mile after mile of currently frozen wasteland would warm up and reveal virgin fertile plains, waiting to be inhabited by forests, birds, large mammals, new varieties and species. This would only happen if human populations stabilise or even decrease (otherwise no amount of angst over stopping plastic toys in Happy Meals is going to be enough)

So for those people panicking or telling us to stop flying, sell our tellies or live in a tree house, you are really only thinking of one species, humans ie yourself!

And scarily, you are playing into the hands of the elitists (government and corporate), who do as little as possible to cease exploiting the world for profit, on an increasingly complex industrial scale, and whose tactic is craftily to make US feel personally guilty for climate change, plastics etc. So the logic being, we will worry and fuss over plastic toys, whether our paper bags should have a waxy lining or not, paper straws and different soaps and take less baths, leave the village less, whilst they feed into our belief that it's these little individual lifestyle changes and choices that will save Earth on a one by one basis.

If you look at it, there is currently no individualistic voluntary human solution that is at all effective, governments know this, whereas in fact, global warming is the planets and natures best chance of restoring order, of limiting human growth, creating virgin land, warmth (things grow and regenerate quicker, most species thrive in warmer periods) a natural response to the excess of one species, nature's best chance, doing what it always does, it's really a clever little planet!

I guess even the plastic will decompose, the oil will be replenished in time, as millions of years mean nothing to the planet, new species will rise and fall. Actually I don't think we're really going to kill off the planet, not by using the wrong type of shampoo anyway. I don't think we are going to die out either, but, (if we assume there is no God and all of this is just random), does it really matter if we do?

OOps, now I'm late for work, where's the car key, sorry boss I'll be there in 10 minutes, or should I be 'green and good' and take the bus (comes in 2 hours time) ha ha big decision!

- Penny Williamson (20th Sep 2019 @ 12:02:44)

To Sheila I posted my original post because Wendy, the OP, said that she wanted to have “a discussion about our hopes and dreams for the planet.” My post was my contribution and I really was not trying to paint bee-keepers in a “bad” light. If my post came across as that please be assured that this was not my intention. I am sure that there are many, many caring and responsible bee-keepers and it is the big conglomerates that are harming the bees. In the 3 months leading up to September 500 million bees have died in Brazil because of pesticides and toxic chemicals. However that doesn’t mean that bee-keepers on a small scale cannot improve their bee-keeping methods as you will see from a small extract of an article I read recently which seemed to make complete sense and prompted my post. As follows:
““Bees, like so many species today, are in crisis. Globally, more and more often whole colonies die or disappear without a trace with no apparent cause. This is called colony collapse disorder (CCD). They are host to an increasing number of parasites of which the Varroa mite is the most significant threat in Europe. Although there is speculation as to the cause of CCD and the rise of Varroa to us it is very clear. Bees and their, often agricultural, environments are routinely soaked with chemical pesticides. Many beekeepers in order to combat the parasites resort to using toxic pesticides year after year inside the hives.
I am finding more natural ways to work with the bees and shifting the emphasis from a consumer-producer relationship to that of partners in the regeneration of land and health. I believe we can increase bee health with our natural styles of hives and more gentle beekeeping methods. Over the years, led by the bees themselves I have developed a style of bee-keeping I call bee-led bee-keeping. The fundamental principle of this is that bees are sentient, wisdom keepers that have much to tell us about what they want and need to thrive. Another principle is to always interact with the bees with respect; they are sentient beings with their own destiny outside of providing honey for people. I do not make a regular honey harvest but wait for the bees to offer it which can happen every two or three years or so but might not happen at all depending on the hive and climatic circumstances. Asking permission before any intervention is a given for me. And sometimes they say 'No' they don't want to be opened today. I have learnt to respect their wishes no matter how much I want to look inside.
I communicate with our bees. I silently ‘talk’ to them and sometimes I hear what they have to say to me. In 2015 a friend who is writing a book about endangered species for children asked if the bees had any message for us humans. So one evening, I sat quietly in the forest and I asked the bees what they wanted to say and this what I heard from the Deva of the Queen Bee;
“We want to work with humans. We want to help us all to go forward. It is not that science and ‘progress’ are bad but they are not the full picture. Blinded as you are by reason you are also blinded to the consequences of your actions when they are inconvenient. We have to do something about the saturation of the environment in toxic chemicals. The pesticides and fungicides are weakening all – not just us bees – ALL life, including humans. We are the canary in the mine. We are dying to show you. To shock you into realising what is going on, the effects of your actions.””

- John (20th Sep 2019 @ 22:32:41)

D having a coffee at the hospital usually puts the profit into the pocket of
Whitbreads who own Costa Coffee who have the franchise for selling coffee in hospitals. It would not have any effect on the chemotherapy treatments of the hospital if Costa's used re usable cups. Starbucks offer a discount if you bring in your own cups. Hospitals used to use proper cups on the wards and someone washed them up. There is an incredible amount of wastage everywhere, and just because we live in a world of disposable plastic, does not mean that we cannot change the current status quo. Are you seriously thinking that chemotherapy treatments would cease if hospitals stopped using plastic cups?

- D (21st Sep 2019 @ 07:17:10)

My post said nothing about Costa's plastic cups. Having recently retired from working in three hospitals I can assure you we do still use "proper cups". All I am saying is before we get carried away with this crusade against "one use plastics" think of the potential consequences. If "one use plastics" were banned then yes, it WOULD affect chemotherapy and many other treatments in hospitals. If you were to remove all the one use plastics from your home (plastic insulation on anything electrical in your home for example, plastics in your car) you wouldn't have much left. Be careful what you wish for.

- D (21st Sep 2019 @ 08:16:05)

At Q.A. Cosham you can also purchase coffee at the hospital's own canteen and the League of Friends room next to the oncology (cancer) department. So I think you may be getting confused when you say Costa has the "franchise to sell coffee in hospitals", John.

- Dawn Hoskins (21st Sep 2019 @ 10:19:11)

I found your post very moving.
We have long been concerned about the lack of insects [not just bees].

I remember when I first started to drive in the 1980s. If you went on a journey for more than about half an hour you would get back to find the front of your car covered in dead bugs of all sorts. Now, the air is bereft of them. This may mean for cleaner cars but it means the birds have no food [or at least much less food].

The use of pesticides does not just kill off the insects that eat a farmer’s crop, it kills off insects that our wildlife depends on for food. The use of pesticides and antibiotics in cattle feed also gets into the animals' system and becomes part of the meat we eat and the milk we drink.

Like John, we have much reduced the quantity of meat that we eat and, where possible, buy organic. We also use plant-based milk alternatives.

I recently read ‘The History of Bees’ by Maja Lunde which despite being a work of fiction [and a great read] really opens your eyes about how important bees are to our whole agricultural and ecological system. I would recommend it to anyone – you don’t have to be a ‘campaigner’ to read it as it weaves in ‘bee facts’ to a gripping tale [actually it is 3 tales within one book].

I also make this comment: sometimes plastic is the best tool for the job. I do not believe that we should ban ALL plastic. I believe that we need to use less DISPOSABLE plastic when good ALTERNATIVES are available.

For example, bin liners, nappy bags, dog poo bags: these are all products specifically designed to end up in landfill. they are manufactured in their trillions and used in every country in the developed world. It is a disgrace. Biodegradable options should be available on every supermarket shelf and would go as far as saying that non-biodegradable options should be prohibited from sale. Certainly no supermarket should be permitted to give away [or sell cheaply] non-biodegradable plastic bags. There should be a complete ban on this. The type of people that buy 10 plastic bags every week when they do their shopping are never going to change unless they are forced to do so.

Also, on the point that it is a big conspiracy to make small individual humans feel individual guilt……. I don’t feel guilty but I do feel that if more ‘individual humans’ spoke up to every manager in every store……. if more ‘individual humans’ stopped buying disposable products we would force our decrepit and inept system of government to hear our voices – but more importantly we would hit big company shareholders in their pockets (and hopefully their consciences).

Adults need to be led by children in this debate. They see it far more clearly.

- John (21st Sep 2019 @ 14:46:37)

Yes D I understand there are other places than Costa in Q A to buy coffee. I Do not understand the link between using china cups or non plastic cups and Chemotherapy? Please explain? I also agree our homes are full of plastic.

- D (21st Sep 2019 @ 18:25:34)

Dear John, If you read my first post you will see I was illustrating (verbally, not with crayons) the importance of single use plastics in hospitals, I used chemotherapy as an example as it is something I have, sadly but that's life, first hand experience of and wouldn't wish it on anyone. If you read your post after my first one you will see it was you who raised the issue of single use cups and proper cups........not me. I hope this clears up your confusion.

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