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E U Elections - Yellow bannanna Adrian (19th May 2019 - 17:52:42) Well our useless politicians have landed us with a 10 million pound bill for the totally pointless EU Elections. So it time to stick two fingers up to the useless prats in Westminster and the EU and vote for the BREXIT Party. We need to get out of Europe now.

Re: E U Elections - Donkey Dan (19th May 2019 - 22:08:29) And what makes you think that the Brexit party isn’t full of more useless politicians that will continue to spend more? Dummies like you that cost us this big mess in the first place. Bollox to brexit

Re: E U Elections - Richard (19th May 2019 - 23:10:24) I wouldn't vote for the Brexit Party if you held a gun to my head. Personally I'll be voting for any party that can give either a second referendum or a complete withdrawal of article 50.

Re: E U Elections - Kate (20th May 2019 - 12:57:55) And in the interests of fairness, if you want to remain in the UK (as I suspect most people now do) you will vote for Lib Dem's etc and avoid a vote for the previously mentioned racist party or indeed the Conservatives & Labour, both of whom need kicked out entirely. Also why would you take advice from someone whom is proud of his assocation to a banana and even self promotes himself with the name banana ??

Re: E U Elections - Simon (20th May 2019 - 13:26:47) Adrian - cost of these elections is quoted at £109m, rather than £10m.

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (20th May 2019 - 13:43:49) Kate. In the interests of fairness, why do you believe the Brexit party to be racist? You're calling an awful lot of the UK population racist with that assertion. Also, don't you think the massive potential shift to the Brexit party suggests a second referendum may well end up with the same result as the first one did?

Re: E U Elections - Pete (20th May 2019 - 15:03:24) If another vote gives the same result so be it, but at least this time voters will be well aware that it is not going to be as easy a ride as was espoused by the leave campaign last time around. Having our cake and eating it was never going to be a reality yet that is what was sold.

Re: E U Elections - Jack (20th May 2019 - 15:38:54) Aidy, no, your assertion is wrong. Increased support for the Brexit Party does not mean Remainers have switched to become Leavers. Looking at the Tory polling, it means that Tory voters have switched to the most simple message (The Brexit Party) because they don't understand the complexities of choosing which way to leave, which the Tory MPs are wrestling with and which was not on the referendum ballot. Remainers are,on the whole, still wanting to remain. Most polls now suggest a remain swing in the UK. The Euro elections are troublesome as a poll on Brexit because of Labour's ambiguous position. Votes for Labour, probably count as remain (as 87% of the paying party support remain), but with the leadership favouring leave it is impossible to factor them in. The other difficulty is that, much to my regret, the Remain parties have not got their act together and campaigned on a single platform, splitting the Remain vote. Do you add all the poll scores for the LibDems, Change UK, Greens and 87% of Labour to establish the Remain vote? What about all the people who refuse to take part in this vote (thinking it is irrelevant) but would take part in a referendum? It is very difficult to gauge. A confirmatory referendum, including May's deal, No Deal and Remain would at least let everyone know where the country now stands, based on all the facts. I think we all deserve that.

Re: E U Elections - Jacob (20th May 2019 - 16:16:08) My son received a leaflet through the post from the brexit party, and had great pleasure in sending it back to them saying "under no circumstances, would he every vote for them".

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (20th May 2019 - 16:27:28) I don't think most remainers would accept a second vote in favour of leaving. They haven't accepted the first vote so why should they accept the second. It's like Sturgeon - she'll keep plugging away until she gets what she wants or pops her clogs. There won't be a second referendum. But if there was, the swing to the Brexit party tells you what the vote would be. We voted leave, the politicians need to put aside their personal agendas and make it happen.

Re: E U Elections - John (20th May 2019 - 19:19:09) Brexit party is being funded by a criminal and is also receiving its cash from abroad probably roubles via PayPal.

Re: E U Elections - Richard (20th May 2019 - 19:23:59) Perhaps the reason there is a campaign for a second referendum is the words of Nigel Farage himself before the first one. Quote: Interviewed by the Mirror before the EU referendum result (16 May 2016) In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Interviewed by the Mirror after the EU referendum result, commenting on the petition to the UK Parliament for a second referendum (25 June 2016) It's the last thing I want to see. It's not a game of the best of three.

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (21st May 2019 - 07:13:49) No Jack, there won't be a second referendum. Certainly not a non-binary one. If you have more than 2 options, say "remain", "leave with May's deal" and "leave with no deal" then you're skewing the results in favour of remain by splitting the leave vote. That's undemocratic and unfair. Just to be completely clear, you you could have 45% voting remain, 20% voting for May's deal and 35% voting for no deal. Remain wins but, overall 55% voted to leave and we should still be leaving. So apart from the fact it won't happen, it actually can't happen in the way you suggest. And the swing to the Brexit party isn't just Tory. It's too big a swing for that to be the case. Most people accept the result and want it done and over with now.

Re: E U Elections - Jack (21st May 2019 - 10:49:29) Aidy, you are right that a three-way referendum would split the leave vote, but hard-core leavers will say that leaving-out 'No Deal' would make a referendum illegitimate. I don't really care as long as we have the option to re-assess whether Brexit is worth it. I don't know whether we will have another vote, but it it is not impossible as things stand and so we must keep making the case. The Brexit Party surge is not a swing to Leave. It is a large proportion of Tory voters and a contingent of Labour voters who backed leave originally. The country has not become more 'Leave', it is just that those who do want to go, want now to do it more destructively (no deal). Yesterday's YouGov poll put the total who are planning to vote for wholly Remain parties (LibDem, Green, SNP, Change UK, Plaid) just ahead of the wholly Brexit parties (The Brexit Party, UKIP), so there is no Leave swing, in fact the swing is the other way. It is just a shame that the Tory and Labour parties are taking part in Thursday's election, as votes for them muddy the picture.

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (21st May 2019 - 11:42:57) Jack, again, that's not true. You're assuming all people who vote Tory and labour are Remainers. It's so very far from being that clear cut. I've read what I think is the same article as you in the Guardian and it's very misleading.

Re: E U Elections - Jacob (21st May 2019 - 12:04:36) I have just looked at the BBC news/Guardian website. Looks like British steel is going under, sighting Brexit as one of the reasons. Protentially 20,000 people out of a job

Re: E U Elections - Jack (21st May 2019 - 12:06:37) Aidy, how has what I have said assumed that Tory and Labour are remainers? We don't know whether Tory or Labour voters are remain or leavers, that's why I say that their votes just confuse the issue, I was talking only in terms of those parties with an unambiguous position on Brexit. Your post doesn't make sense.I think you have misunderstood the poll.

Re: E U Elections - Terry (21st May 2019 - 12:10:37) It's EU not 'E U'.

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (21st May 2019 - 12:26:14) Jack - let me directly quote you to avoid any misunderstanding then. You said "so there is no Leave swing, in fact the swing us the other way. It is just a shame that the Tory and Labour parties are taking part in Thursday's election, as votes for them muddy the picture.". Indeed they do, their may well be a majority leave vote hidden their, but you're assuming otherwise as this doesn't suit your agenda. Is that clear? You can have the last word Jack, as you always do and given that this debate is only going in one direction. Enjoy.

Re: E U Elections - Jack (21st May 2019 - 14:09:17) I wasn't drawing a conclusion one way or the other about the Tory and Labour votes - I didn't say that they would go to remain; nobody knows. You have read that inference into my comments, Aidy. I am simply saying that votes for those parties are unclear one way or the other and so it is a shame they are involved at all as it makes the outcome unclear. I think this is the first time I have managed the last word with you! Adrian, you have again succeeded in stirring-up a Brexit furore and I have fallen for it once more! Terry, is it not 'E.U.'?

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (21st May 2019 - 15:30:27) Jack. Oh dear, I so badly did not want to respond any further as it's utterly futile. However, in the interest of being accurate and correct though, you won't find any brexit thread in here started by me and you have commented on several of them prior to me ever being involved. It seems I've got into your head.... Let it go.

Re: E U Elections - Jack (21st May 2019 - 16:58:22) I didn't say you started any threads or that you were first, Aidy. I was addressing Adrian Yellow Bananas, or however he wants to spell it, who started the thread. I assume you are not both the same Adrian/Aidy? I don't really care anyway.

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (21st May 2019 - 20:20:11) I don't particularly care either, Jack, but we're not one and the same.for what it's worth. I am an Adrian, but only to my parents and when I was at school 30 years ago.

Re: E U Elections - kate (22nd May 2019 - 15:35:10) I am not saying people whom vote for Farage are Nazis, and am not saying Farage is Hitler.....but Electing the charismatic, egomaniac, super right wing leader of a policy free personality cult and blaming our troubles on foreigners both immigrants and Europeans does have a very bad track record.

Re: E U Elections - Peter (22nd May 2019 - 15:41:04) The swing is indeed to remain, easily factually checked out and highlighted by Jack "YouGov poll put the total who are planning to vote for wholly Remain parties (LibDem, Green, SNP, Change UK, Plaid) just ahead of the wholly Brexit parties (The Brexit Party, UKIP), so there is no Leave swing, in fact the swing is the other way." Brexit party will do well and those that want that will believe in it like the 350m to the NHS etc, they will jump around yapping oh look Farage did well so that mean we were right and everyone wants to leave. ... it does not

Re: E U Elections - Elizabeth (22nd May 2019 - 22:36:40) Why not do a straw poll here? I vote stay

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (23rd May 2019 - 06:47:42) Peter. Facts? What "facts"? Polls are not facts. Didn't the polls suggest a close remain victory in the referendum in 2016? Polls are not factual, far from it. They can suggest a result but unless they're provided by a company with either a TARDIS or a flux capacitor then they are guesstimates, massively extrapolated and potentially manipulated.

Re: E U Elections - Jacob (23rd May 2019 - 09:51:42) Brexit is costing, jobs in the UK (British steel) and many many more. Come on the UK, let's vote the right people in that wants us to have the 2nd vote to stop brexit in its tracks.

Re: E U Elections - Katie (23rd May 2019 - 11:37:20) I’m voting Lib Dem today. I don’t usually but I don’t want to leave the EU. I want my kids to have the opportunities that they were born with, which other people have voted away.

Re: E U Elections - Pete (not Peter) (23rd May 2019 - 12:46:19) Surely polls are facts in so far as they are what people have polled at the time they were asked. Agreed they are by no means indicative of a final result for many reasons. In conclusion poll data is fact, a means of predicting a result it is not.

Re: E U Elections - AA (23rd May 2019 - 12:54:53) Apparently if you're a remained it's best to vote for Change if you want to be tactical as lib dems won't be able to make up enough for an extra seat whereas Change may be able to get one. There's a website about who its best to vote for where you live if you Google it, don't have the link to hand...

Re: E U Elections - Katie (23rd May 2019 - 13:59:27) I looked at one of those websites - it advised voting Lib Dem in South East & London

Re: E U Elections - War baby (23rd May 2019 - 14:02:54) I voted brexit party to get us out of the eu the sooner the better, Whith out a deal then we can trade with all of the world. Most of the eu countries ar on there knees our economy is the best they will soon come A running when we stop buying their goods . Germany France car industry will go into free fall. They are on the edge now .Lets trade whith the world

Re: E U Elections - Jen (23rd May 2019 - 16:57:18) War Baby, I can't quite decide whether that is satire or whether you're serious! I sincerely hope it's the former! It's so hard to tell nowadays, as so many people seem to write pretty ludicrous statements and actually mean them to be taken seriously.

Re: E U Elections - Helen (23rd May 2019 - 17:59:58) War babie, Aidy, Adrian: Peter Oborne - I was a strong Brexiteer. Now we must swallow our pride and think again www.opendemocracy.net/... Brexit - James O'Brien Brexiters Lied to You youtube.com/watch?v=phmSQl1cVFs

Re: E U Elections - PR Man (23rd May 2019 - 18:16:34) War Baby - are you a TRB fan - Let's go Oldie - kindred spirits !!

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (23rd May 2019 - 20:56:36) Oh Helen, really? For every stupid pro-remain link you post I can post what you would consider an equally stupid pro-leave link. There is no definitive answer either way. On balance, and in the long term I think we're better off leaving. But the reality is neither side has a time travel machine. The remain campaign lied, and continue to lie. The leave campaign lied too. You need to determine where in the middle of that the truth exists but it's not in either of your links, I assure you that.

Re: E U Elections - Helen (23rd May 2019 - 22:50:30) Aidy, can you post a url that explains the benefits of any deliverable brexit , and is fact based, I have an open mind. You have been sold a unicorn; Brexit is a toxic product.

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (24th May 2019 - 07:29:08) Helen - if you are as open minded as you say you would already have googled it as easily as I could for you. I won't because you won't read it and it would be futile. If I've been sold a unicorn then you've been infected by project fear. Touche.

Re: E U Elections - Pete (24th May 2019 - 09:19:42) Always makes me giggle when people refer to the remain campaign as project fear when the mainstay of the leave campaign (apart from the LIE on the side of a bus) was blatant fear mongering over immigration.

Re: E U Elections - Jen (24th May 2019 - 09:46:49) "Project Fear" Aidy? All I have seen from Remain are facts - and predictions based on facts. If the TV weather forecaster says there is a huge storm coming and had made that prediction based on the satellite information (facts) available, would you call that "project fear" as well?

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (24th May 2019 - 10:09:56) Jen Have a read. You won't believe any of it is factual, obviously, but have a read anyway. Anyone who can't accept that both campaigns lied is naive in the extreme. www.thecommentator.com/article/6829/remain_s_project_fear_lies_should_fool_no_one

Re: E U Elections - John (24th May 2019 - 10:26:33) So now that you have committed yourself to the fact that lies where told during the referendum campaign it’s logical you can then proceed to say the referendum was null and void and to clear it up “now that we are all experts on it” We should have a second go.

Re: E U Elections - War baby (24th May 2019 - 11:40:42) Hi I thought my post might make the remainers have a fit . Thay just don’t get it .Three years ago we voted to come out of the eu clear cut majority no ifs no buts .The people voted to get their country back for better or worse we voted to make our own laws dish out our own justice accept people from all over the world on our terms . Over many decades we have engaged in many wars and won and lost thousands of lives just so we could be free. Please remainers accept the result and let’s get on and make Great Britain Great again

Re: E U Elections - Rölli (24th May 2019 - 12:33:58) Clear cut majority? Hardly!

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (24th May 2019 - 12:54:02) Rolli - but if we have another vote and it's 51% remain to 49% leave you'll be fine with that?

Re: E U Elections - Jezza (24th May 2019 - 14:02:04) Rolli. Clear cut or not, the vote was to come out, so lets get on with it !

Re: E U Elections - Helen (24th May 2019 - 15:03:04) The reason we went into Europe was that we were the " sick man of Europe" the EU has given us trading power with other alliances. None of the big trading nations will trade with us on our own as it would disrupt deals they have with Europe.

Re: E U Elections - Aidy (24th May 2019 - 16:09:20) Helen. The first part of what you say is very true - although the model is now failing and I think it's the right time to get out. I'm staggered at your second point though, where do you get that from? It isn't 1973 anymore and how would trading with us disrupt any deals other countries have with Europe? Europe doesn't even have deals with Australia and India for a start.

Re: E U Elections - Jen (24th May 2019 - 17:06:44) War Baby, Noooo! I was so hoping that your post was a joke. I have to take issue with something you said "Over many decades we have engaged in many wars and won and lost thousands of lives just so we could be free. Please remainers accept the result and let’s get on and make Great Britain Great again" I'm not Winston Churchill's biggest fan but I'm pretty sure that he would turn in his grave if he could read that! His great vision after WWII was for there to be a lasting co-operation between the nations of Europe. He described it as "a kind of United States of Europe". I'm convinced that he would have been proud of the EU and its achievements and the 74 years of peace we have enjoyed in Europe.

Re: E U Elections - Diane (24th May 2019 - 18:46:14) Just wondering what we could sell Australia and India. Friends in Australia said there is nothing they would want to buy from the UK that they haven't already got but could probably find something to sell us

Re: E U Elections - K (24th May 2019 - 19:41:39) This thread is exactly what the referendum result was, approximately 50:50 for Brexit so for everyone that wants to remains there's someone who want to leave. The result was to leave so whether you want o stay or leave you should accept the vote and lets just leave. All this arguing is getting no one anywhere and the sooner we leave the quicker we can either crash into a full blown recession or, as I hope, we can start to move forward and plan a future. MPs are voted in to do as the country wishes so they should bloody well get on and do it!

Re: E U Elections - John (24th May 2019 - 20:26:52) No one is going to be getting on with anything, deal or no deal it’s not just going to make everything go peaceful, every single fault and economic downside for the next dozen or more years is going to be blamed on this stupidity, I wouldn’t be surprised if we are campaigning to get back into the EU in 10 years as our country falls to s*** after we cut ourselves off. This will never end and there will be no peace

Re: E U Elections - E (24th May 2019 - 23:20:44) Personal observation: I am a highly skilled worker, and hold a couple of well respected engineering degrees and qualifications. On more than one occasion I have been offered stipends by both national governments and private businesses to move overseas to work. I am a British citizen, but made the decision to stay in the UK rather than migrate based on personal circumstance. We were asked to vote on Brexit. My logic, which is contrary to many of my peers as a liberal is this. I am quite well off and earn a good wage. I have the ability, youth and energy to move abroad. If I don't vote for Brexit, things remain the same or similar. The status quo remains and nothing particularly changes. If I do vote for Brexit, three things could happen. One, it is one of the greatest booms to our economy. I don't know how this actually benefits greatly me because largely my existing wealth means I gain marginally more. Two, it is an abysmal failure. Our economy crashes. I am still wealthy in comparison to most others and still have significantly higher earning potential in spite of the economic collapse. In the worst case scenario, I move abroad, to any number of countries with potential roles in my field. Three, things remain the same, which I feel would be socially the most damaging form of Brexit because it would show it to be one of the most expensive bureaucratic exercises in potentially human history. Of course this particular Brexit has already been scapegoated with this idea that whatever kind of Brexit does happen is not the real kind of Brexit "we" want. Conclusion, Brexit is a social experiment where I cannot lose, I can only gain. So I did vote for it. People less well suited the weather the storm, eg the elderly whose pensions are dependent on economic shifts may lose significant income, but I am not elderly. People afforded protection by the state such as those unable to work are also more likely to see a decrease in lifestyle. People in low income non-essential jobs, window cleaners, janitors etc will find that their demand significantly decreases and laid off. This in turn drives the economic push towards automation, which as a high skilled worker working in robotics, benefits me (as a side note) Alternatively, Brexit is a success, the elderly will most likely not see a massive growth in their pension as again people like myself, bankers and other high skilled managerial will skim off that benefit as a bonus for good financial management (rather than fortuitous luck). We may see an increase in public spending which benefits those unable to work (however in the current climate of opinions that seems unlikely) and low skilled workers may be employed more frequently, but aren't likely to see massive increases in wages because they haven't become anymore skilled. Whilst it may be easy to point to a liberal elite and say that they're delaying Brexit (which I actually don't dispute, they truly are) it's important to ask if they'll actually truly be affected by it. Because by my calculations as one of them, I have the versatility to avoid any of the damaging effects of Brexit. Do you?

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