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Talkback is for the residents and businesses in Liphook to voice their views and opinions about local issues and events.

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BREXIT
- Adrian (10th Jul 2018 @ 15:14:21)

It's all going wrong. We all need to contact our local MP to say get a proper BREXIT or get rid of Theresa. Jacob Rees Mogg will sort it all out. Remember Theresa "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT". Remember Europe needs us more than we need them.

Re: BREXIT
- MJR (10th Jul 2018 @ 16:39:01)

I rather hope that we now remain.

Remember the 48% of the voters who wished to remain in the EU.

I'm quite sure that a large proportion of the 52% who voted to leave will now reflect on the lack of planning and false promises of the Brexiteers.

Maybe this is an opportunity for those who voted to leave to conclude the economic effect on our country by leaving will be too much to risk.

I'm of the opinion that Jason Rees-Mogg is theorist and not a leader.






Re: BREXIT
- Rölli (10th Jul 2018 @ 16:44:34)

Here we go again!!!!

Cannot see the fors turning into against and vice versa.

However, Europe needs us more than we need them, ha ha ha ha ha.

Re: BREXIT
- Helen (10th Jul 2018 @ 18:47:07)

Do not worry brexiters " The Donald " and his entourage have arrived to
sort it out! yeah! how lucky are we!

Re: BREXIT
- The Joy (10th Jul 2018 @ 22:02:32)

It was bound to fail having remainers in charge of negotiations.

Bit like having vegans in charge of a BBQ for meat eaters

Re: BREXIT
- Jacob (11th Jul 2018 @ 09:36:41)

We need another vote, and I bet the results will be a massive landslide for us to remain. I do hope so for the sake of children, there children and there children children.


Re: BREXIT
- A.R (11th Jul 2018 @ 10:41:14)

I don't think so Jacob.

Re: BREXIT
- Jacob (11th Jul 2018 @ 12:17:02)

Why not?

Re: BREXIT
- Jack (11th Jul 2018 @ 12:41:54)

Jacob Rees Mogg moved his own firm's location to Dublin so that it remains in the EU (FACT) yet he rants on TV about how good getting out will be for the country. Jacob Rees Mogg is only interested in his own pocket as are the rest of them.


Re: BREXIT
- Rölli (11th Jul 2018 @ 12:42:36)

Because there is no legislative reason to do so. There was a vote and under the legal requirements of that vote a result was registered. As it happens I am a remain but accept that based on referendum a decision has been made (a decision I still think is tremendously wrong)

The only way I can see a way that the result could be overturned is if the government falls and we have a general election with one of the parties categorically stating they will apply to remain, and then win! - then we really would be at the mercy of Europe - no thanks.

For good or bad, and by the smallest of margins this country has made a choice so we are probably best to get on with it and then reunify the nation. Its a right mess though!!

Re: BREXIT
- Regrexit (11th Jul 2018 @ 14:35:49)

Was the vote for allowing any politician to "figure out" the concept of Brexit means Brexit? Are the Leavers happy with any interpretation of the form of Brexit to be had?

Say we have discontinued (whatever that means) our EU membership 03/2019, with all the resulting changes, would the people be content and united for the foreseeable future? or are we looking at the beginning of a prolonged, expensive and ugly struggle to get back into the EU thereafter? With future generation regrexits demanding a referendum, winning it and then begging our way back in?

Re: BREXIT
- A.R (11th Jul 2018 @ 16:50:40)

Well Jacob , we had the vote, we won't get another, and anyone that still wants to remain after the debacle caused by the EU for daring to want to leave really needs their heads reading.
They have done everything in their power to hinder and sabotage a democratic decision made by the majority of the people in this country.
Is that the type of bedfellows you are happy to collude with.
We should be allowed to govern ourselves as we once did , and create our own laws to suit our country, as we once did.
We get our fisheries and farming back, our borders back, so what is not to like ?
We joined a common market, not a federal government. Times have moved on in trade, and we should have been allowed to trade with the world, if Mrs May hadn't backed down.

Re: BREXIT
- Ian (11th Jul 2018 @ 17:07:06)

Like most unions of nations, the EU /EEC began as an Economic Union. The benefits since 1973 are complex to measure, but countries with similar GDP in 1973 (when we joined the EEC) to the UK have since trailed us by about 23%.
This economic union requires free movement of goods, services, people and capital to make it work.

The cost of membership in money terms was about £7bn (about 0.5% GDP), not the £20bn claimed during the campaign to leave.

The rest of the EU's structure and mechanisms derived from this economic union and the regulations to support it, including all the stuff around drugs, nuclear material, aviation, human rights.

Leaving the EU will therefore impact us economically, just as joining did, unless we somehow maintain frictionless boarders. By how much is anyone's guess, but just by reference to the benefits we've had in terms of economic growth compared to the state we were in as "the sick man of Europe" prior to '73 is worrying.

So the whole BREXIT we might get comes down to "can we afford to be out of the Economic Union, for the sake of jobs and prosperity and the added complexity of an Irish boarder and what that might do to peace in the UK"?

Those who don't care what the economic cost might be seem generally to be either independently wealthy with investment in and out of the EU so will not be impacted or indeed might benefit, or those who feel so let down by the status quo that any change might be better. I hope it is.

Re: BREXIT
- helen (11th Jul 2018 @ 17:23:30)

The reason Jacob Rees Mogg moved his company to Dublin could be tax reasons, after all huge corporations do that to avoid paying tax in this country. If they register a head office in Dublin is stil an English speaking
country so they can pass a lot of the admin there too, I believe company
taxation there is really low.

Re: BREXIT
- Jacob (11th Jul 2018 @ 23:07:22)

AR can I ask what your age is?

Re: BREXIT
- Paul Robinson (12th Jul 2018 @ 06:44:23)

A correction. A. R. says

"They have done everything in their power to hinder and sabotage a democratic decision made by the majority of the people in this country."

A little under 37% of the electorate voted leave.

Paul Robinson

Re: BREXIT
- liz (12th Jul 2018 @ 09:04:33)

For many if was a vote against austerity rather than against Europe.

Re: BREXIT
- OTP (12th Jul 2018 @ 09:56:43)

Paul,
It was 52% of those that voted. It was the highest number of voters ever!
We never have had a 100% turnout.
This is how democracy works.

Re: BREXIT
- liz (12th Jul 2018 @ 10:24:01)

OTP

I'm sure Paul realises that. But AR had referred to "the majority of people in this country". It wasn't.

Re: BREXIT
- Paul Robinson (12th Jul 2018 @ 11:02:59)

Of the total eligible to vote only 72.21% voted of these 51.9% of the votes cast voted to leave .

I make that 37.4% of the electorate.

These would have included the votes of David Davis (thick as mince, lazy as a toad & vain as Narcissus), the egregious Michael Gove and the duplicitous Boris Johnson (though I am not sure about him as, at the time, he had two letters written, one in favour of leave and one to remain)

And don't get me started on the big red bus and the hijacking of the NHS logo.

Re: BREXIT
- A.R (12th Jul 2018 @ 12:28:10)

Okay, okay , Pauls being very pedantic here. I shall rephrase my words in my post to the majority of those who voted, voted to leave.
As for those that never voted , well that's another story. But that is the way of voting in this country, fairly. There are many other countries that rig voting so the outcome is the way that some want it to go. Thank goodness we don't. As for those wanting another ballot that would be going down the dark murky road of the latter.
As for my age Jacob, what does that have to do with it ? I am as old as my tongue and a bit older than my teeth.
I believe that it was a very broad spectrum of people who voted either way, so let's not have any voices of dissent aimed at the older community.
For those that wanted to remain they have made their choice, but this incessant fighting against it has done more harm than good.


Re: BREXIT
- Jack (the other one) (12th Jul 2018 @ 13:02:55)

and don't forget that 16 and 17 year-olds were not allowed a say, even though they were included in the Scottish referendum. Having set the precedent in the earlier referendum, it was clearly game-playing by the leave campaign to insist that the franchise be limited to engineer a better chance for themselves. With that, a jingoistic campaign based on blue passports and some vague notion of sovereignty they squeaked a result. That is not democracy as I would recognise it - it was deeply flawed.

As for the EU needing us more than we need them, I think that lie has been well and truly debunked. I really cannot understand why some people are still believing this rhetoric when it is so clearly not true. The 27 other nations may lose a minor export market, but we lose our biggest trading partner. The EU negotiators have been patient and bemused, waiting for us to agree what our own position is before discussions can really begin in earnest. In the meantime the clock is ticking...nine months and we are out. Theresa May's dilemma is obvious - you cannot leave the bloc with no deal without crashing the economy. Having a deal protects the economy but makes us a rule-taker, Jacob-Rees Mogg's so-called 'vassal state'. No good can come of Brexit either way. If she jumps one way we crash, if she jumps the other she upsets a small % of Conservative MPs and the right-wing press. If she was really bold, and put country before party, she would tell us honestly that, after 18 months of work on it, Brexit is just not worth it. Put it to another vote, include the next generation that will end up paying for the mess and let us decide, now we know about the lies and fantasies from Leave. If we stay at the top-table of Europe, we will be able to influence how the bloc moves forward. If we go, they will still go ahead with their plans and we will have to accept the consequences as an outsider.

Re: BREXIT
- Andy (12th Jul 2018 @ 13:35:11)

If the vote occurred today knowing what we now know the result would be different. We are a political laughing stock amongst much of the rest of the world because of it, even the US. All we will have is less than we had.

Recovery is going to be a very long road to get at least economically back to level we had, its clear on many stats we have dropped off the pace whilst the rest of Europe/world have moved up. We wont reach the high levels for a generation and even if we do we will never be a a point that either recovers the money lost or confirms we were right to do so. All the good that being in the EU did is going to be replaced with a shabby alternative and the areas that voted for it the most wont get the EU money replaced by the present government so those areas of the country will decline even more. The EU didnt make law's for fun or to pi** people off, they did them to improve standards and our life's. Now the new laws will be aligned to lower standards, make the rich richer, before long d*g s**t will be legally acceptable to eat.

In the end only 2 things are true, 1 Even with its faults it wasn't that bad to be in the EU and 2 it will be bad to get out for a very very long time, those that voted leave wont live long enough to comprehensively proof that they were correct.

The EU is going to correct its faults based on us taking the fall and they will kick on to something even greater without us and because of us. We will be left behind claiming a victory when actually we fell on our own sword to go from internationally significant to an also ran, and that makes every other country outside of the EU very happy as seeing the UK fall removes one more pawn from the global game of whom is important as they dont like the EU at all its too powerful for them.

Re: BREXIT
- Rölli (12th Jul 2018 @ 13:57:22)

It does seem to me that most younger people, and especially those with families, mortgages and in employment wanted to remain.

Unfortunately the older generations (those that over the last 70 years have most benefited from the EU) got a bee in their bonnet about immigrants clogging up the NHS and wanted their blue passports back, decided they would send the country into a decade + of recession/stagnation and uncertainty and harm the next generations future.

Selfish old so and so's. And please don't go banging on about the war and sacrifice, that was your parents generation!

Re: BREXIT
- helen (12th Jul 2018 @ 14:42:44)

I agree with Rolli I am sick of people saying "who won the war" as if it were still the 1940s war with Hitler. Move on, the economists argued against brexit and have been proved right. Why did those who voted to
leave not think we would have export/ import problems? Why do they think salvation lies with a trade deal with "the Donald?" He puts America
first in all their trade deals, we can only offer them the luxury goods market, or the arms trade.

Re: BREXIT
- liz (12th Jul 2018 @ 15:35:26)

Rolli

Nothing like a huge generalisation is there? Don't forget the 40% of over 60s who voted to remain and the 27% of 18-24 year olds who voted to leave.

As for war and sacrifice - Brexit may not be a good thing - but I didn't think it had come to that!

Re: BREXIT
- oldie (12th Jul 2018 @ 16:06:23)

Jack, Andy, Rolli and others, you have just summed up 'democracy' including the disappointment of being on the losing side, the right to vote or not vote, according to your wishes, to have hugely important decisions made by secret vote and not war (as they had to go through in the past for us) and perhaps most importantly, to respect the outcome whether you like it or not.

Argue for whatever you like and I respect your right to voice your opinions but don't belittle voters for being old (perhaps they've learned something about life you haven't figured out yet) or selfish (their opinion matters to them as much as yours do to you), the fact is that if older people voted out as you seem to think (and who really knows), perhaps they were thinking of Britain's longer term future as an inheritance to you and not just their own pockets, you would be amazed how much longer term the elders can foresee than the young, it will happen to you too as it did to all of us and we've never complained about a democratic vote in this way before.

All this nonsense about 52% of a 72% turnout means only 37% wanted to leave shows a shocking ignorance of the UK voting system and of statistics. Leaving aside the obvious (that 52% of non voters were statistically likely to have voted leave and 48% remain had they chosen to vote), for accurate sampling any poll of over 1000 is considered optimally perfect (law of diminishing returns) and as UK voting stats are error free (UK Electoral Commission), it is statistically wrong to claim anything other than that this outcome was completely representative of the British population at the time the vote was taken, there is simply no factual basis for any other claims!

Re: BREXIT
- A.R (12th Jul 2018 @ 16:30:48)

- Rölli, Oh dear oh dear, if life was that simple.....
You honestly believe that is why the older generation voted ? What a simplistic view you have. Maybe some, yes, but it ran a lot lot deeper than that, if you don't realise that then you never gave it enough thought.
You seem to want to find hurdles where none should exist, and where there are potential hurdles you find them insurmountable.
Andy, are you the Andy that I find plagues the online newspapers. You sound exactly like him, defeatist in the extreme.
Oh, and I have a mortgage, and three youngish kids, one of 19, so don't lump everyone into categories to suit your agenda.

Re: BREXIT
- Evia (12th Jul 2018 @ 23:35:12)

A.R has all the classic signs of someone few care about in real life, the relaxed keyboard "Oh dear oh dear" and "you didnt realise" with "you seem to want" The classic keyboard patter of someone enjoying his/her moment in the spotlight for its the only spotlight they get.

Enough of the pretend psychology expertise mate, no one is fooled as you make a fool of yourself. Nothing you have added is based on anything other than your own desire to be heard.

Rest up and let the others contribute the intellect to this discussion on both sides please.

Re: BREXIT
- Adrian (13th Jul 2018 @ 02:19:03)

Well i certainly started a lively discussion. It looks like MP's from both sides iof the house are unimpressed with Theresa's white paper.
The fact is to get an agreement with the EU both sides have to compromise, we have already gone too far and it's clear the EU will not budge, and they only reason they allowed us in the EU was because of the membership fees we paid.
I don't think Theresa will see sense and change as at heart she is a remoaner. All we can hope is that she does not move any further and the EU does the same so we can leave the EU on WTO rules.
This will also mean we don't have to pay the massive divorce bill agreed earlier as that was dependant on a trade agreement.
It will also mean the Irish and Belgian economy will CRASH and Germany will lose 25% of car sales.
I HOPE THE WHOLE OF THE EU DISINTERGATES AND IMPLODES.

Re: BREXIT
- liz (13th Jul 2018 @ 08:23:42)

Adrian

Your wish is very naive. Unfortunately it reflects the world view of many Brexiteers I suspect.

Re: BREXIT
- Jacob (17th Jul 2018 @ 12:23:11)

And the vote leave has been fined for telling lies. We should have another vote now

Re: BREXIT
- Helen (17th Jul 2018 @ 13:41:52)

whatever we say it would take at least another year to organise another referendum by which time we hopefully will have sorted the mess
If those who voted leave realised it may cost
the economy dearly they may have put any xenaphobia aside.

Re: BREXIT
- Tom Robinson (17th Jul 2018 @ 16:22:15)


It's certainly a mess.

1. Leave peddled incorrect statements in the run-up to the vote, including the "Let's fund our NHS with £350m we sent the EU" slogan emblazoned on the side of a campaign bus.

2. Vote Leave didn't distance themselves from the far-right Leave.EU, fronted by Nigel Farage. They were happy to let him be one of the public faces of the campaign, drawing in votes with a racist "Breaking Point" billboard, unveiled the day before Jo Cox MP was murdered by a far right supporter whilst out campaigning.

3, The BBC gave and continue to give Nigel Farage airtime to voice his "saloon bar" opinions, a man who hated the EU so much he took a salary and pension from them whilst only turning up a handful of times to vote or contribute to debate in Brussels. A true Charlatan.

4. The public were asked to vote on something so vague, something so damaging to our way of life, our economy and communities that despite the mantra "Brexit means Brexit - no one knows what it means even now...2 years on.

5. David Cameron gambled the future of the country just to settle the unrest from his own party back-benchers, and see off the threat from UKIP. He's happily writing his memoirs in a shed whilst we try and grasp what the future holds for us all.

6. The "will of the people" was a rigged vote, and gave rise to far-right ideology in modern politics.

7. A re-vote will cause more uncertainty, after more walk-outs and resignations.

8. The only people who stand to gain out it are around 15 people - made up of MP's, Newspaper Owners and that's it.

9. It's like watching people who have never read a book burning down a library.

10. Common sense must prevail with any decision. Not party politics. We've seen very little of the former in the past 2 years.

Re: BREXIT
- Marian (17th Jul 2018 @ 17:20:01)

Very well said tom robinson. I think you have put the whole business very clearly.

Re: BREXIT
- Jane (17th Jul 2018 @ 22:18:41)

What do we want? National humiliation. When do we want it? Now! Said the leave voter holding his democratic shield..

Re: BREXIT
- Claire (18th Jul 2018 @ 12:42:23)

www.peoples-vote.uk
Just leaving this here, lovely Liphook folk. Whichever way you voted, the current state of affairs is an embarrassment frankly.
Thank you

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