Reply to THIS thread
Start a NEW Talkback Thread
Talkback Home

How safe are we? - sue (24th Aug 2007 - 11:34:34) With the most recent and dreadful knife/gun crimes happening, how safe are we in Liphook - not at all I fear. The events are now not drug related or turf warfare but pure violence - unprovoked. I think steve has mentioned brfore his concerns and on Wendesday I too came aware of what is potentially on our door step. I had four lads 16 and under visit my shop, I wasn't too bothered, but one made a beline for a knife block and took one out to look at - stating that that is just the size he wanted! Another lad spotted the range of kitchen knives at the rear of the shop, and took down the carving knife and made stabbing movements, with a smerk on his face. A few years ago these kids would have looked at playstations etc in the say way they did in knives. Promptly asked them to leave, treading carefully in the process and said they would be unable to purchase these under the age of 18. I don't know if it was a joke, but one said of the smallests, who had used the carving knife 'oh did you know he has already killed two people' - I took this with a pinch of salt, but anything could be possible. At least 2 of these lads are from Liphook, and children love to copy what others are doing - even if to us its wrong. My knives are all covered and kept near the counter, but I will move them to behind the counter, but unfortunately other shops do not, and most worrying of all every kitchen in every home has them. Do you know how many knives you have? and would you miss one if it was removed?. I would hate to read in next weeks paper that someone here was just another statistic. be vigilant Sue

Re: How safe are we? - nikki (24th Aug 2007 - 14:39:44) I had a young lad approach me at work last Sunday night , as he walked towards me I noticed what looked like a firearm in his front jean pocket, just as I was about to hit the panic alarm ( i am a lone worker on nights)...he pulled it out and said " your not frightened of this are you?"...immediately saw it was a plastic kids toy but in the early hours of the morning it has hard to tell the difference!! He thought it was highly amusing to scare the wits out of me and i promptly reported him to the police, so for those kids out there..imitating a firearm is an offence. Sue, I totally agree that you should put your knives behind the counter and also put a sign up in your shop informing customers that they need to be 18 to purchase one. I know other shops do not practice this but doing your bit in making sure that these easy to get hold of weapons (which is effectively what they can be used for) do not fall into the wrong hands or at least from your shop.

Re: How safe are we? - Steve Read (24th Aug 2007 - 17:41:44) On my last check around the garden I failed to come across any disgruntled Grizzlies, no crocodiles in the pond waiting to pounce whilst feeding the goldfish and have not seen the pack of wolves running amok through the greenhouse for years. My point being there is no reason why anybody needs to carry a knife or gun. NO REASON! When is someone going to have the balls to stand up and say enough is enough. If your caught carrying its 20 years locked up, wouldn't even bother with the expense of a trial. Not enough prisons, build some more and keep building them until the message gets through or there are no more to lock away. On the Human Rights issue I would have thought that to qualify you had to behave like a Human in the first instance. Have a good look over the Pond to see where it all goes wrong, because this is what will happen here before much longer. Frightening scenario you must admit but it will come unless this is stamped out with enough of a deterent to these morons of all ages.

Re: How safe are we? - nikki (1st Sep 2007 - 11:58:37) We have just returned from a 5 day break to the west country. We stayed in a little village just outside Bideford. On our last night (thursday), my boyfriend was walking back from the local shops at 8pm,along the seafront. He was confronted by a group of 15 youths who asked if he was on holiday. My boyfriend replied yes and carried on walking. 3 of the youths then ran up behind him,tackled him to the ground and proceeded to kick him and stamp on his head. He was beaten quite badly and has suffered a nasty injury to the back of his neck. If it wasn't for an off duty police officer (from another force)..stepping in and helping my boyfriend,I dread to think what the outcome would have been. We spent until 2 am friday morning with devon and cornwall police giving statements. The offenders have been arrested and we await the outcome. We are totally incensed and outraged that these under 18's decided to pick on an innocent holidaymaker and attack him so viciously . We will be pursuing this until the offenders have been suitably punished,if not by the police, we shall be taking this up ourselves. So, it appears,you are not safe, anywhere...not even in a little sleepy village in Devon. These are 2 pictures of my boyfriends injuries. This is what local youths think is "cool", to do to an innocent person, minding their own business on holiday IMG015.jpg IMG014.jpg [editor - I expect that all the talkback readers would wish to join in passing on our best wishes to your boyfriend. I hope that the youth of Bideford are suitably penalised for their actions, in the same way that those in Erith will be. See news.bbc.co.uk/... for details. We can only hope that todays youth will get a wake up call - this type of mindless violence is not acceptable.] [editor - mind you, it looks like your boyfriend was lucky, see news.bbc.co.uk/.... Don't think I'll be off to Bideford in the near future!]

Re: How safe are we? - Louise (1st Sep 2007 - 16:34:52) Nikki, I hope your boyfriend makes a speedy recovery after this horrific incident, but I imagine the emotional memories will take a lot longer to heal. Every time something like this happens, we all ask why, and in the absence of obvious answers, the standard clichés are rolled out. People blame drink, drugs, violent films and video games, bad parenting, family and social breakdown, soft criminal justice system, churches not providing a moral framework, lack of discipline in schools, lack of bobbies on the beat, poverty and deprivation, the list goes on. There is of course no single reason for young people behaving in a thuggish manner and it is a combination of factors, as lots of children grow up in poverty or watching violence on TV and would never dream of hurting anyone. It is also not a new or recent phenomenon, and but although successive governments throw millions of pounds at the problem, it never goes away. My own belief is that the money spent on government schemes like ASBOs is sometimes just like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Action is needed at the stage before children have already started to take the wrong direction, and it needs to deal with the really deep root causes, not just superficially plastering over them. Politicians and public figures often don't dare speak plainly for fear of being (heaven forbid!) politically incorrect. Look at how nervously people talk about the fact that gun crime is largely associated with young black men. People who say it have to word it carefully to ensure they don't sound racist. It doesn't seem acceptable to say in public that there is a higher than average number of problem children who have an unmarried young mother. If you do say it, you feel obliged to add that there are of course also some good teenage mums, which is true, but it just illustrates the point that we are often not getting to the root of the problems partly because of political correctness. The single most important factor in the list above is poor parenting. However, its all very well saying, "Blame the parents, they should know where their children are and what they're up to". This may be true but unfortunately saying it does not change things and you can blame the parents all you like, but it doesn't mean that anyone will be a better parent in future. From time to time I see a young teenage mother in Liphook with her small child and I wince at the way she ignores him and then shouts at him for nothing. But I also know what a terrible time this young Mum had herself as a child. History is repeating itself, and I won't be surprised if her son has problems for in ten years time. There are just as many children who have problems whose parents are happily married too, but although each problem child's background is unique, there are some factors which are consistent.. Reception class teachers and nursery school workers will tell you off the record that in a group of children aged 3 to 6 you can already quickly and clearly identify most of those who are going to have behaviour problems later on. So many problems; parents divorcing or absent, an alcoholic parent, lack of love, it always comes back to parenting in the end. So if I were Prime Minister, I would put all resources possible into teaching parenting at senior school and into regular parenting forums for new parents in every neighbourhood school as a continuation of antenatal classes. This is very very politically incorrect, accusations of a nanny state would fly. Usually only those who don't need the help attend this sort of thing, but if the government made child allowance dependant on attendance, things would be different. These meetings should continue right through the senior school as parents need even more help at that stage. Once a year would be the minimum. Then infant schools should devote lots of time to teaching children (particularly boys) how to empathise with others and understand how their actions make others feel.. This is infinitely more important than learning lots of things that are taught. By junior school, children who have problems should have one to one help. This would all take huge amounts of money but I think the social benefits would be well worth it. We will never cure the problem completely, violence is innate in human nature, and any improvements would all be too late for Nikki's boyfriend, but drastic changes are needed to prevent society degenerating into further barbarism. (I submit this to provoke thought, but hope that if any one posts a follow up to disagree with me (or any other subsequent posters), they will at least be civil, keep to the issue and resist personal insults!)

Re: How safe are we? - sue (1st Sep 2007 - 17:18:25) Nikki It just goes to show what we were discussing just before your departure. I know the ordeal must be dreadful for you, his injuries may not appear as bad as some, but I am sure as hell his mental state is going to take a very long time to adjust. Bideford, was at one time where we had looked into buying either a pub or PO, as we had life long friends in Woolsery- lucky for us it didn't happen. But from what is happening it might have been anywhere!! For those who wish to mock the original message - and then went on about slapping an asbo on a certain shop - I hope you dont find this amusing too!!. sue

Re: How safe are we? - nikki (1st Sep 2007 - 18:52:03) thankyou for your replies. We are lucky that out of the 15 youths,not 1 of them produced a knife or worse. It is looking back at the "could have been" that frightens us and indeed those that are attacked in this way. Yes, my boyfriends injurys were not life threatening ,but again "could have been" ie....stamping on someone's head . I had to sit up until 4 am with a grown man and watch him cry...he says that a real man would have fought back and not laid there and taken this unprovoked beating. In a split second someone has taken away someone elses pride. And this is the main reason why we will not let this drop,the offender will get theirs...maybe not with a fist or a boot in the head...but he will be punished.

Re: How safe are we? - nikki (1st Sep 2007 - 19:02:25) Bideford police have a section 30 in place for Bideford. Basically they have powers to disperse groups of youths. However,what has happened in our case..is the youths who attacked my b/f..are from Bideford...but because theyre not allowed to hang out there..they get on the bus and travel to westward ho for the evening,cause trouble ,then get the last bus home!! When I was a teenager we got the last bus home after an evening out at the cinema or bowling.

Re: How safe are we? - Eneida (1st Sep 2007 - 19:44:05) Nikki, I'm very sorry this has happened to your boyfriend in Devon, but I'm not altogether surprised. I moved to Liphook from south Devon and there was quite a lot of violence towards outsiders or what they call 'grokels' there too, but North Devon is much worse!! There's no excuse for it whatsoever, but IMO it's nothing to do with PC or modern parenting because it's being going on forever....I think it's pure jealousy of people they perceive as better off. Eneida

Re: How safe are we? - sue (2nd Sep 2007 - 11:42:15) Having just read Louise’s post, agree with most of her comments but:- As a parent, and one that has been through divorce and have two sons and two much older stepsons, I do not like the assumption that separation will create difficult (violent-social misfits), kids. Yes kids do go through bad times, but it is down to the parents themselves to deal with it as best as they can. (like Louise) Both sets of parents in our case always put the children FIRST, but did not pamper them or use the excuse of 'they have been through a difficult time - lets cut them slack'. As we go through life, kids, adults, senior members, life is difficult, and for that reason, and for me they were just experiencing things slightly earlier than most. They had BOUNDARIES. This IMO is where parenting, schools, police, etc have got lost in PCness. Parents are now not allowed to 'smack' a child - why ever not, an honestly delivered 'smack' (not excessive or violent) I prefer the word ‘tap’, works wonders, punishment at school stopped many lads from being ‘naughty’, and police could also go about their work with much less restrictions. Don’t get me wrong I am not a violent person, and fully support the eradication of excessive treatment some school heads, parents, and police have and can commit. Eneida is quite right that 'inferiority' is a large factor, but so too is 'areas'. We seem to highlight other areas with problems, but having lived within this area all my life, know we too have it. For the past 3 carnival nights, (now my boys are independent people), they have always spotted trouble BEFORE it happened. Only last year my 18yr old pointed out a couple of groups - and low and behold there were fights (albeit long after the carnival had finished). Basically, the Haslemere Boys - dislike Liphook boys, Headley Down dislike Grayshott, and Bordon dislike Liphook and vice-versa. For boys they just seem to find the need to assert what they think is masculine behaviour, then when hurt 'cry like babies'. It is all part of growing up. BUT nowadays, they have gone a step further; not content on giving someone a bloody nose, they strive to KILL. Now how you sort that out I do not know!. Now I am not saying my boys are angels – anything but at times and since the older one (of both sets), reached ‘maturity’ did things that was against everything we believed in because they then started listening to others. At that point no matter how many good ideas and correct upbringing you have done, they just have to find the rest out for themselves. Just for the record - neither of my boys were involved in the fighting - and indeed the 18yr old was circled by a gang from Haslemere, who had mistaken him for someone else - down to quick thinking and cleaver talking he avoided confrontation. I have always endorsed what my mother told my brother - it takes a stronger person to walk away than one to stay and fight. He as a child could easily have been the one picked out like Louise said, but did not turn out like that at all. Labelling people as types does in its self, cause 'difference'. The main reason behind any attack.

Re: How safe are we? - S (4th Sep 2007 - 09:04:27) Now I was always told as a kid and still am under the impression that if set on by a group of thugs you make one big effort to take out the biggest and tuffest looking one first, if you don't nail him then your going to get a kicking, if you do nail him you may get out of it as the others will be scared or you may still get a kicking but you have more chance. This has worked in the past BUT.... It is no defence against a group with guns or knives, what is this world coming too. I also believe it is the PC groups amongst society that are causing this and the sooner they get put back in their place and ignored the better. The people who strongly support these groups are as extreme in their beliefs as any racist, as any hooligan or terrorist and they feel they have righteousness on their side. It's disgraceful.

Re: How safe are we? - rob (4th Sep 2007 - 10:51:13) Sue You say "For those who wish to mock the original message - and then went on about slapping an asbo on a certain shop - I hope you dont find this amusing too!!". As the self-appointed guardian of all things commercial, environmental and moral in Liphook and beyond, you really do have a responsibility to get your facts right. I am the person who made a jokey comment about ASBOs (on a completely different string, in a completely different context - and BEFORE anyone said anything on this string). I find your innuendo - that I should mock someone who has been the subject of a personal attack - seriously offensive. Bang goes another customer! Great marketing. rob.

Re: How safe are we? - sue (4th Sep 2007 - 18:59:03) Rob Dear oh dear, You have such a low opinion of me - but that’s ok I can deal with that. Now it is interesting when on discussing a topic of why do people need to use alternative names - it is just because of the kind of reaction of your post. Does it mean, because I am connected to a business I do not have any right to express MY opinions, which they all are, and not in anyway like you profess them to be, and should not be reflected on any business - but I am too well aware of such petty minded people in fact it was just such a comment like yours which made the decision to close the business - take it away and the choice is taken away from anyone - the best business decision we have ever made!! - so what you are saying is that I should use discretion and silence and compromise my beliefs to satisfy you - that is very democratic. I actually enjoy the interaction, and I know others do too. A number of people actually come into the shop and say exactly that. By the way the last time I looked the 24 of August 11.34.34 came BEFORE the 25 of August 15.49.56. These are the time recorded for postings - the first unfortunately was on this thread by me. I know the second posting on the same thread was promptly added, because it led to a private discussion. Your posting was if I am not mistaken and humbly say IMO was second. With the mentioning of knives and axes it didn’t take much to know what prompted their inclusion - if however you never read this thread, then you truly must have psychic powers!! Sadly I do not have a clue who you are - so I probably would never know if you used the shop anyway, and perhaps you could pop in and make yourself known, so if I ever see you I will make a point of welcoming you. As you are a contributor on this forum, you would also know I do not promote where I work in any way - any more for obvious reasons. Sadly, you want to put the two together. Sticks and stones. Sue

Re: How safe are we? - rob (4th Sep 2007 - 19:54:14) Sue No apology expected. You are wrong to think I'm the same person as the person who said something you took exception to at the start of this string - as you might recognise if you had a private conversation based on his posting. There is no connection between the two things you connected - still less, I guess, between the two people you are so certain are one (perhaps the editor can confirm). Yes, you're right about the timing of the postings - but the fact I got that wrong is only evidence of the fact there was absolutely no connection in my own mind between the two. But you are omniscient, so you must know better than I do. And I must be the despicable person you think I am. You will I'm sure win in your campaign to bore into submission anyone who has a different point of view than yours. I'm off. rob.

Re: How safe are we? - Eneida (5th Sep 2007 - 09:20:12) Does anybody have the slightest idea what this argument between Rob and Sue is all about?????????? Because I'm sure I don't !!!......no need to enlighten me though.... Eneida

Re: How safe are we? - sue (5th Sep 2007 - 09:41:10) Rob I think this should be under 'mens brains' thread. Firstly, I do not have any particular feelings about you in the least, apart from the trying to damage a business. Secondly, I am sure if I were to act like you to whoever you work for, or own a business, and to affect your partner - you too would think that rather OTT. What are you on!!! You are the confused one not me. I know exactly which post I was talking about - yours under 'Country Wide' and my first under this heading. No confusion on my part. You refer to an earlier post under this thread as if somehow I thought it was from you, which for some reason you thought I was against - (which you would wouldn't you), and it led to a private discussion. You are so absolutely WRONG. the fact that the poster was a Lady and I presume you are a fella (but perhaps you are I wouldn't know) To get back to the point - I am GLAD that you do not think violence is acceptable.

Re: How safe are we? - nikki (5th Sep 2007 - 14:18:31) I find the fact that a lot of threads turn into a playground for bashing folk for their personal opinions,very sad. It is neither constructive or called for. I can understand how some people have chosen not to post on here anymore and personally feel the point of posting (to express our opinions on local issues NOT other people) has been lost. I assumed this site was moderated not to include the type of posts we have seen of late? Sainsbury's,for all the recent press,are here to stay. They have generated much discussion and, I gather, fury. Local business' have of course been affected by Sainsbury's and for those people passionate about continuing our village way of life,lets continue to support our village shops & Business' in a positive and pro active manner

Re: How safe are we? - Barbara Easton (7th Sep 2007 - 11:54:44) I am sorry to hear what happened to you in Devon Nikki. There is no excuse for violence, and I am not making excuses, but I would put forward the proposition that we have to sort out youth unemployment. There are no apprenticeships for the trades anymore, and those who choose not to go to college or university are left with a few jobs, whichh they are in competition for with the Eastern Europeans. I myself require a part time job. It is very humiliating to pass my CV in to people who do not even have the decency to say you are not suitable. This is not a search for any job requiring the Brain of Britain- local shop jobs etc are very difficult to get. One job I enquired after on the phone, I was spoken to by someone who wasn't prepared to discuss the job further unless I had worked in the Travel Agency business before. How hard is it to sell a package holiday? I can use a computer and talk intelligently when required I hope? Sending people to college only delays the employment problem, I was in a restaurant recently where all the staff were Eastern European. It is a non starter to reply to me well they will work for less- they can afford to as they are entitled to have their rents and council tax paid by the local council if they are in rented accommodation, without much of a declared taxed income. A young person is not likely to qualify for much when still living at their parents address. So yes envy and frustration lead to low esteem, a job is an important part of that, in previous years the construction workers of any building site would not have been imported. [editor - it is not true to say that apprenticeships do not exist. My step son is just starting one. Although the process was extremely frustrating to get sorted (something the Government needs to look in to) he will be attending a specialist college in Somerset for 7 one week sessions throughout the following year.]

Re: How safe are we? - S (7th Sep 2007 - 13:20:31) You forget one important factor when competing against eastern european and foreign nationals for jobs. They will work for a LOT cheaper, a lot longer hours and don't mind poor conditions. You have Tony Blair to blame for this, when there were skill shortgages in this country especially in IT a few years ago instead of putting money into education and training Labour went for the cheaper option of importing Eastern Europeans and sending call centres to India. This is what you labour voters out there voted for.

Re: How safe are we? - barbar (7th Sep 2007 - 14:14:08) Dear s thank you for replying and the editor. I think I did answer the point, the people who work for very low wages can afford to because they are subsidised by the housing benefit system. This is achieved by 1. obtaining a privately rented flat at a level the local authority will pay for this is currently around £6oo-750 per month. The applicant for housing benefit then states they are dependant on benefits and can support their claim to have no income. The rent and council tax is then paid for by the local authority. The applicant then obtains small part time cash in hand jobs, which do not go through the normal channels. This way they can afford to take low paid work on offer. I know myself in the area how many of the cleaning ironing and childminding jobs are taken by the eastern Europeans, these are all cash in hand jobs, where it is easy not to declare tax or say I am a student who does not pay tax. It is perhaps true that they will work longer hours because in main they are younger and obviously will not get as tired as an older person, and the more hours they work the more cash in hand they achieve. Not much money is spent locally either, money is spent in the country of origin.

Reply to THIS thread
Talkback Home