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Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Debbie (26th Sep 2012 - 10:04:40) Just a quick reminder that tomorrow is the last day that you can object to Old Thorns taking over and using OUR heathland as a second golf course. planningpublicaccess.southdowns.gov.uk/

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - val porter (26th Sep 2012 - 10:29:07) I've contact chairman of SDNPA planning committee and made him aware of the situation. I also contacted Rogate and Milland parish council planning committees who had not seen the application, but Rogate had a planning meeting on Monday evening and were due to be addressed by the agent's representative. Milland's planning committee is meeting this evening and have just announced that this will be an OPEN MEETING to discuss the golf course application: 7.30pm in Milland village hall. You might remember in 1993 we in Milland (with Rogate's help) managed to stop a very similar application from Kosaido for a golf course on Weavers Down by enlisting the help of English Nature with great success!

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Rev Andrew Carter (28th Sep 2012 - 15:50:12) The SDNP website is still accepting objections as at 28th September. I have heard that we have until mid-October to make representations. Does anybody know when the exact cut-off is?

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Debbie (28th Sep 2012 - 16:12:33) I've now seen some notices that I believe say the 17th October which gives people a bit more time!

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Grant Jones (29th Sep 2012 - 07:55:09) Objections to any planning application can be submitted past the consultation period. Generally formal objections can be a posted a few days prior to determination.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Darren (29th Sep 2012 - 08:52:46) This application has been in before and previously rejected so hopefully will be again, which I will be very happy with. If you wish to object I might suggest you study the plans carefully as I feel that most people believe the proposed Golf Course is on the "Weavers Down" that we all enjoy walking on with family, friends etc. If you study the plans you will find it is much further southwest on land that most people don't walk on and historically has even been fenced and farmed in the past. Ensure you know the facts and word your objection accordingly.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - iwik61 (1st Oct 2012 - 13:24:53) Why is it that as soon as a bussiness plans to expand people always object .How many part and full time jobs will be created with this proposal direrctly or indirectly.We live in a lovely area but what about jobs that will be created by this expansion is it that bad.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - liz (1st Oct 2012 - 13:54:20) iwik61 Please read the other thread on this subject it may help. Yes jobs are important but not at the expense of destroying a rare and beautiful environment. The only excuse (maybe) would be absolute necessity.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Nikki Cookson (1st Oct 2012 - 14:24:12) Desperate to talk to someone about this. Both my partner and I are insensed at the thought of one of the most beautiful, diverse parts of the Hampshire Countryside being destroyed for the sake of yet another golf course in Liphook. We are not fortunate to live in walking distance of Weavers Down and the fields that are under proposal for planning permission. We visit to walk 2 or 3 times weekly. Whilst walking I have met people from Farnham who come to enjoy the beautiful countryside and the guests who stay at the near by Champneys health Spa frequently comment to me about the beautiful walking. I presume that access will be no longer allowed. What can we do to help ?

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - iwik61 (1st Oct 2012 - 14:36:19) aren"t JOBS ESSENTIAL or do we just turn a blind eye to the quagmire the country is in?????? at least see what the proposals are before condemning every thing that will help our children into the workforce.Unless they all can work at sainsburys what are the alternatives in the area.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - liz (1st Oct 2012 - 16:48:01) Of course jobs are essential but a golf course will provide very limited employment. As I asked Ed - did you campaign for more employment on the OSU site?

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - J (2nd Oct 2012 - 16:44:50) Can I ask a question to iwik61? do you work for Old thorns? have you been up to old thorns? How many local people do you think work there? After visting them not so long ago I can tell you not many.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Old Thorns (2nd Oct 2012 - 17:28:23) Thank you for your valuable comments on the site so far. With regards to staffing within a previous thread we believe it is important for facts rather than just opinions. We currently employ 170 staff of which 30 are not local. This is completely the reverse of the previous post suggesting that we do not employ local people. Most of our staff are young adults learning and developing skills which will be valuable for there future career and personal development whilst having the chance to earn money in the local area.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - rr (2nd Oct 2012 - 19:16:43) Old thorns...we believe it is important for facts rather than just opinions also... Out of your 170 staff how many extra will you need just for the second golf course or will it be as everyone has thought minimal extra employment opportunities with existing staff covering the work needed..

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - paul jarratt (2nd Oct 2012 - 19:39:13) I live next to 18th hole we get a lot of golf balls doing damage to our roof which we have to pay for golf club said they were here before houses so not pay for damage spent almost £1200 on in 2 years. repairs on roof and almost been hit by golf balls when sitting in garden. so the heath land is around before golf course was here so i object to this until law make golf pay for damage to houses or before someone get badly injured by balls.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - iwik61 (2nd Oct 2012 - 19:49:03) reply to j,yes i have been to the old thorns and i knew they had a fair few staff and thanks to the reply from the old thorns on this subject ,now we know exactly how many.Why is it as soon as a person plays the devils advocate the small and narrow minded people on this forum immediately think that you must work for the subject matter.Whether it be the fish and chip shop,the taxi company or such like.The way i see it is expansion has to be weighed up and some bussinesses need to expand to safe guard the positions already created.130 jobs plus the extra ones that will and i am sure that will be created is food for thought.Not many councils can turn that down for the local school leavers

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - liz (3rd Oct 2012 - 08:40:12) iwik61 Yours is the argument always used by developers but very weak in this case. I'm sure the decsion makers will take this into account. I'm sorry if you see the contributors to this post as narrow minded - but remember, you are one of them!

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - J (3rd Oct 2012 - 16:16:40) Thank you Old Thorns for there reply. Can I ask them how many extra jobs will be made for LOCAL people?. I would also like to point out that we moved to Liphook for the FAB walking. I don't think many people moving to Liphook would say I moved here for the Hotels with two golf courses? We have so so so so so so many golf courses in and around Liphook. All I wanted to say, that I want to be able enjoy going for a walk and not be hit on the head by a golf ball. and for my children to be able to run round, and play hide and seek and make dens, all the things children should be able to do for FREE.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Lynne (3rd Oct 2012 - 22:13:17) In casual conversation one of the motor bike riders on weavers down told me that Old Thorns had given them permission to ride on the land. interesting! Interesting too that sightings of two protected reptiles have not been made for a number of years. Perhaps they don't like living alongside motorbikes. Shame that they couldn't stick it out because their presence would in turn offer some protection to the land. As stewards of this SSI why haven't Old Thorns posted signs prohibiting motorbikes......oh silly me they are waiting for the golf course to go ahead because the green keepers will put a stop to it. Big plus point to having a golf course. Old Thorns have a strange approach to signs. I was appalled at the 3 notices that I saw originally and decided more needed to be placed on the site. I put up 8 and included my contact details so that individuals could connect. Old Thorns rang me. My signs disappeared.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Susie (3rd Oct 2012 - 23:18:45) So do Old Thorns own this land? I'm confussed because I thought they didn't, in which case how can they give permission for motorbikes?

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - lynne davidson (4th Oct 2012 - 14:20:46) It is a confusing issue because one would think that common land can\'t be owned. But Old Thorns do own the land. I have seen slow worms and adders there, it is also an ideal habitat for smooth snakes and sand lizards which are both protected, though sadly not from motorbikes.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - liz (5th Oct 2012 - 11:52:56) I see the Herald has put the case for the development once again! Doesn't mention the SSSI. Says English Nature "excited" by Old Thorns' land management. (I wonder if they know about the motorbikes.) To be fair, it does mention at the end of the article that the original application was refused mainly on ecological grounds put forward by English Nature and that those grounds for refusal persist today. Let's hope so.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Lynne (5th Oct 2012 - 12:16:35) I have heard that a walk has been organised on weavers down on Sunday. Meeting at the Rising Sun at 2pm. There is going to be a Ranger from the Natural Trust to talk about the proposal.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Finchie (8th Oct 2012 - 23:02:20) Blimey Paul, my golf is terrible and I never get close to your house (assuming your house is, as you come up the fairway, the one to the right of the clubhouse, past the putting area, past the swimming pool and past the old Japanese restaurant !). My suggestion is balls with players names on and a ban and a fine if they hit your place!!!!!! Are you sure it\'s not players facing the wrong way on the first tee ? Interesting thread. I haven\'t played for 5+ years but loved Old Thorns as a quality local course you could pay and play without the need to pay ridiculous membership fees. Surprised that it has got so busy, and also surprised we could sustain 3 golf courses within a \"drive\" of each other, be interested in more detail here and the justification. The cynical side of me says it is a \"cheap\" way to add value for a sale to a big hotel chain ! So even as a golf playing, mountain biking, off-road trail riding, gym attending nut, I\'m on the fence. Cheers, Finchie

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Andy (9th Oct 2012 - 09:00:24) Just got back from Celtic Manor where they have 3 golf courses in the one resort. Perhaps Old Thorns is looking to host the Ryder Cup at some point in the future!

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - liz (9th Oct 2012 - 09:24:00) Finchie The cynical side of you may be quite right. A possible sale has already been mentioned by someone on one of these threads. De Vere's was the name in the frame I think.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Editor (12th Oct 2012 - 08:54:02) From - www.oss.org.uk/... We oppose new golf-course on common land 10 October 2012 We have objected to a planning application, from Old Thorns Golf and Country Club, to create a new golf-course on a heathland common near Liphook in the South Downs National Park. We consider the golf course will be highly damaging to the superb landscape of the area and people’s enjoyment of it. Common land is a unique survival from medieval times, and heathland commons are especially important for their wildlife habitats which are rapidly diminishing. The golf course will interfere with the rights of graziers whose stock do good work in maintaining the heathland habitat. The development will also interfere with the rights of the public to walk over the whole common. We have said that the applicant needs to be aware that even if he obtains planning permission, he must still have consent from the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, under section 38 of the Commons Act 2006, for works on common land. Such an application will be strenuously opposed. This development appears to be for purely private gain at huge cost to the public interest in this unique landscape. We have urged the South Downs National Park Authority to oppose it.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - LB (12th Oct 2012 - 14:36:51) To OSS. Thank you for your support, it is much appreciated but I can not see your formal objection on the SDNP planning document list. Please could you check that it will be posted as it is clearly very important. Thank you. OSS have confirmed that their objection was sent on the 10th October.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - TBD (26th Oct 2012 - 14:44:10) I see some sad and selfish individual has removed some of the SDNP notices on Weaver Down. Clearly too late as the closing date for objections is in the next day or so.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Debbie (13th Nov 2012 - 14:26:34) Old Thorns have temporarily withdrawn their application for a second golf course in order for them to give them time to put together a more detailed package and then they will resubmit it in the new year. Here\'s the link to see their letter to the South Downs National Park Authority. planningpublicaccess.southdowns.gov.uk/...

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - bdavies (15th Nov 2012 - 16:58:09) Does that mean that we have to object again?

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - 2013 application - Stephen R Miles (3rd Sep 2013 - 05:26:24) All should note that this application SDNP/13/02300/FUL has gone in again for this golf course application. The applicant is named as Roger Hill. It is said it will be decided by Chichester District Council. Curiously when you search the SDNPA planning website all you get is the 2012 application. One wonders if this concealment is deliberate or just an error but clearly it is not democratic to retain the 9th September 2013 deadline when the presumably revised application cannot be seen.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Keith (3rd Sep 2013 - 08:32:54) Stephen The new application was withdrawn on a technicality either last week or the week before (I forget which). The new application was incorrectly validated as a required report was missing. SDNP have therefore removed the application from the website until the developers provide this report when the consultation period for this application will recommence, so consultation will not be ending on 9th September but on some later date yet to be confirmed. Confusion has arisen as due to a clerical error, notifications of the planning application were sent out prior to the validation error being spotted.

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - sue (3rd Sep 2013 - 16:12:54) I think you're all getting a bit ahead of yourselves. There are NO YELLOW NOTICES up on the site. There is no planning application on the SDNPA website. As far as I'm aware - yes, they resubmitted the application but did not include the environmental statement. Until they submit this environmental statement the application is NOT VALID. Once they DO submit this statement, yellow notices will be posted on site, the planning application will appear on the SDNPA website and there will then be a period of 21 days during which objections will be accepted. Don't panic, not yet, anyway

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Stephen Miles (30th Nov 2013 - 16:52:44) Well the 2nd notice duly arrived to me on the 15th or 16th November 2013 giving details of the third application for a golf course on this recovering heathland site. The notice has now also appeared in the Bordon and probably other "Herald" series papers under the Public Notices section. Do not be taken in by the description as a "new heathland golf course". There will not be much actual heathland left after development and the SSSI/SPA will be damaged by the surface to be applied over the soil of the access route, as well as by increased disturbance. Much heathland has been lost in the 20th and 21st centuries and we cannot afford to lose any more and this site is recovering nicely from the sin of a previous owner. The real question today is whether the statutory authority, Natural England will be allowed to object now that it is virtually just a mouthpeice for the present government (and I would say the worst UK Government ever in terms of Nature Conservation).

Re: Old Thorns second golf course - object by tomorrow! - Peter Anson (1st Dec 2013 - 13:23:49) The decision of the Liphook/Bramshot Council not to object seems undemocratic. There was very little time between the new planning application and their meeting which decided not to object. Residents of Liphook had very little time to express their opinions which when the last application was submitted resulted in a strong objection. The proposals have not substantially altered. Although some changes have been made the course is largely the same, and in spite of what has been stated the impact must therefore largely be the same. If this proposal is approved, it is hard to imagine that much of this area will not ultimately be lost to the general public, and commoner’s rights such as grazing cattle etc are hard to see running alongside golf. Open Access will be lost as it is simply not safe to wander around golf courses, and this one will use virtually all the land. The claim that only 18% of the land would be used for golf needs clarifying as the actual course will take up a much larger percentage of the land. At present this beautiful land is an area used by many, leaving a very light footprint behind them. This includes walkers with or without dogs! The claim that, 200 plus golfers with their trolleys tramping over the area daily in the key Spring and Summer seasons, plus all the maintenance vehicles, will result in an area good for rare wild life and plants is hard to give any credit. Golfers spend a considerable amount of time tramping in the rough, in this case rare wild life and plant habitat looking for balls. Fairways are mowed very regularly and these will cover a large part of the area, so will be no good for anything other than golf. Heather and rough within the confines of the course will be mowed to keep heather down to say 15cms (6inches) to enable golf balls to be found and played. Then you have the destruction to the area caused by the initial building. This can only be done outside the breeding season and it is questionable whether or not this can be done in one winter. The impact on wildlife etc will take years to recover, if it ever does with golfers and maintenance vehicles continually going over the site. Commoners Rights. Grazing cows for example leave big holes in the ground especially when it is wet, and then there will be cowpats on the fairways. Without limiting these rights it is hard to see how this can work. Heath Land. The application states that this land has been agriculturally managed, but it is worth mentioning that the area has been maintained for the last 30 ish years by the commoners who through their management have returned it to a designated site of Nature Conservation interest, so the plans do not improve that situation. Access. The access track through the SSSI is currently a lightly used foot path. The proposal is to turn this into a path with passing places for large buggies carrying 8 people trolleys and golf clubs, and course maintenance vehicles. Land Value. The fact that this land is of low value was known by the current owner at the time of purchase. It only has a high value if a golf course is approved. Was the lack of interest in buying the land at least partly due to pricing? Fly tipping over the years seems to have been no worse, if not better than other areas of open land. To conclude this land must not be turned into a golf course. There are better ways together with interested parties, to continue regenerating this Heath Land for the benefit of the endangered species, rare plants, and the general public, rather than closing it off, for the financial benefit of a few, and for a few privileged golfers who are well provided for by the many other courses in The neighbourhood. Can Liphook/Bramshot Council be persuaded to do another U-Turn?

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