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whos fault is it? - SUE (21st Mar 2007 - 10:19:30) Having had another sleepless night worrying about my business and that of others - I must stop blaming just Sainsburys. Having visited the store again last evening and walked the offending isles with Lynn Jordan the Manager, i asked the question of how has this been allowed. Her reply was every thing had to go through the correct planning applications, and was agreed - are.. so the real cause for this change is the local Council - what a surprise. I know that a few members of our parish council post here so your comments and corrections are most appreciated. My understanding of planning is that the Penns Power people send out to the Parish council any applications concerning their area for them to chew over, spit out or digest as they see fit. Did our council give their full support to this extension and were they fully aware of what products would be in store. If so i do find it hard to understand why the comments flying around at present is that a few council members are horrified at what has gone on. Did no one learn from the original build that they were unpopular (funny thing is i am sure one council memeber moved to Penns Palace soon after the passing of the initial store - correct me if I am mislead), if as i would hope our parish council decided that the new application to large - was it then down to Penns Power to grant permission. Who are not bothered about small sums, only in the 'grant to openspace'etc that all new builds and extensions must provide on any application. Secondly, they are trying to charge for carparking in Station Road and Midhurst road. Yet another kick in the teeth for the rest of us while sainsburys will remain free. Just a quick note= someone a good few years ago told me that the future vision for 'New Town' was to make it completely residential. How i laughed and thought never/ Now i am not too sure. At both ends of Station Road are Flats/Houses, a Mews was built, the old caravan site is now houses and it has been suggested that Plumbase will apply for housing there too. With the closure of Fairfield warehouse (behind the newer stops) the possibility of buldozing the whole site for houses would not be impossible. Their 'vision' is to concentrate on the Square as retail, and the well discussed plot next to the existing Beaver Industrial site Must be kept for industrial - extension of the units - but shock horror only this week it was mentioned in our shop that they were more interested in them being Shops. Many a true word is spoken in jest!!!!

Re: whos fault is it? - Candyfloss (28th Jun 2007 - 09:06:48) Just read about the plight of Passfield stores, and it reminded me about the Hardware/housewares fight with Sainsburys, which as Sue has stopped posting, we now know nothing!!. Trawled through old postings and found this - I still think most of the points need answers. Many people turned the debate into a personal attack, which only cemented the ground that Sainsburys have stood hard on for many years. I think it time that we, the public were informed by those in the know exactly what the situation is. We had Mr Sam James, writing to the Herald, stating that Sainsburys have ridden rough shod over businesses and ripped out the guts out of the village, Mrs Anna James, stating that it would appear that they have a larger than planned 'non-food' area. We know from the Herald that the floor space was measured back in early May - but what was the outcome, and did it include the entrance area, where they now sell stacks of compost!! We also know that they have broken their planning in the petrol station, by selling products that are not related to 'cars', and notes on the file at Penns Place confirm they have been 'warned'. The council also included in the new application, that they must comply to their previous plans and remove the goods from the petrol station. Has this been done? We also know that they do not have a licence to sell 'Hot food' and not permitted to sell 'take-out coffee & teas, both of which is happening. Having spoken to someone in the know, the original list of 'products in and not in', produced by Sainsburys at the public meeting, was nothing more than a 'suggested' list and was NEVER included in the plans at all, so the local traders never had the protection they though they had from the word go, and the members of the public were let down. We also know that the traders - lead my Mr Sam James had a meeting nearly 3 weeks ago, what was the outcome? I feel that the longer it goes unanswered the less likely there will be one. It does seem that our council can hound a lady for a stable, drag scouts & guides to court and make joe bloggs abide by planning, but can't achieve anything with a large Supermarket!! If any of these comments are untrue PLEASE correct - would be most appreciated.

Re: whos fault is it? - Freddie Dawkins (28th Jun 2007 - 18:59:36) Hi, Candyfloss and all here - Now I'm not a parish councillor, I am able to say more than I have in the past on this subject. An observation first: the last Parish Council (May 2003-May 2007) worked very hard on the various Sainburys applications/variations etc which came before it. Jim Walters (who has left the Council) and Mike Croucher in particular had a great knowledge of many of the early planning decisions and negotiations and did their level best to get the rest of the PC and the District Council and its officers to take notice and make decisions that were to the benefit of the whole community - and that planning briefs were adhered to. At times, I felt that certain planning officers at Penns Place did not work hard enough to back the PC. But, you have to realise that the PC can only advise - the real power rests with the District Council. I know that our own three District Councillors, on various applications of Sainsburys and others, have sometimes been out voted at the District level. That's democracy. At other times, the councillors have over-ridden planning officers - and in my opinion have done a better job. In the last 12 months, there have been major changes in East Hants' planning dept - but just how effective the officers now are is not something I have great knowledge of. Second point: A lot of what you have said about planning regulations is completely correct. The garage and the store were given very strict guidelines. If the planning officers do not check back and check what's happening, then anyone can flout permissions. Sainsburys must be, overall, a good thing for the village. Yes, I actually have just typed that, and I lived here when we still had the OSU. Sainsburys offers goods which we'd otherwise have to go to Petersfield or elsewhere to buy. (Personally, I prefer Bordon every time - but then I have to drive there...) and Sainsburys also offers employment. But no big company should be allowed to sidestep planning regulations and if the various alleged breaches are taking place, complain to your District Councillor and ask them to take up the case with the planning dept in Penns Place. Hope this helps clarify a bit. Freddie

Re: whos fault is it? - Candyfloss (28th Jun 2007 - 19:43:54) Freddie, Thanks for your input. May I say that I too agree that Sainsburys have been a benefit to the community and offered much more than Somerfields, BUT that shouldn't make them above the system. Liphook needed a larger Supermarket to cope with the increased housing and for many it suits perfectly. The changes with their re-fit store - as far as I can tell were totally unforseen (perhaps not), and this is the point that we need to establish. Was the extension needed and requested for the introduction of new non-food related products - particularly those that had previously been told to the community would NOT be included. Or was it sold on the basis of 'making food shopping more pleasurable'?

Re: whos fault is it? - Barry Hope (28th Jun 2007 - 21:57:17) Hi all, Good to see your still alive and kicking Freddie, great to see your input again. I also agree with the comments made. The Parish Council are very limited in what they can do apart from raise objections to, or support applications. They can make recommendations but at the end of the day EHDC have the power to decide. I also think that Sainsbury’s has brought benefits to the people of Liphook, not least of which is the Millennium Centre (used by many people and families for all sorts of enjoyment) and Village Green. As Freddie says, that does not mean that they should be able to flout planning laws any more than any other applicant, no matter how big they are. When I was a Parish Councillor I always considered any local issue or situation on the basis of reasonableness, logic and looked very closely at the pros and cons of any topic. Over and above this, as Freddie knows, I was a keen supporter of public accountability. I felt that any decision or course of action the parish council took should always and at all times, be able to stand up to public scrutiny. Call me old fashioned but I have principles. In the same respect Sainsbury’s are no different. No matter what size they are they are not above the law or the legal planning process. District Councillor Sam James (who is also a County Councillor) has started the ball rolling by calling a meeting. We haven’t seen much of an outcome from that yet and I would urge him and others to ensure that the current process of checking Sainsbury’s compliance with planning regulations is not allowed to disappear off the radar. The topic should be raised regularly at every opportunity until a definitive answer is obtained, one way or the other. Best wishes to all Barry

Re: whos fault is it? - Freddie Dawkins (28th Jun 2007 - 22:52:05) Hi, CandyF - From memory, I don't recall all the detail. I do remember the paperwork was vast. You can ask at the Parish office for the file to be brought up from Penns Place for viewing locally, or you can go down to Penns Place and read it. Also, if you ask at the Parish Office, they'll be able to pull out all the minutes which were taken at the PC Planning Committee. But the most important documents are those held at Penns Place - and the final approval documents with whatever restrictions were agreed by the District Council. Hope this helps. Freddie

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