Reply to THIS thread
Start a NEW Talkback Thread
Talkback Home

Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Liphook.co.uk Editor (16th Oct 2003 - 14:02:15) New thread for the discussion follow ons from the "Blue? houses in Longmoor road" thread (see http://www.liphook.co.uk/?section=interactive&page=talkback_thread&id=16 for the old posts. Please continue the discussion here ...

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Steve (16th Oct 2003 - 14:03:10) Yeah, confused myself there too. I DO think it's getting better. I wrote that first post in March 2003, which although is only 7 months ago I think some really good progress has been made in that time. I too had nothing much to do here when I was a kid apart from Radford Park, football in Liphook rec and the Housing development that is now the Maltings to explore in. I expect the people of Liphook complained about the kids then too. The youth club must of made a difference too as I hardly see anything like as many kids on the streets now.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Alex Cameron (16th Oct 2003 - 14:04:18) I'm a young person now (24 as it happens), and i was a young person in little Liphook for years. I know of many people who are intimidated by the aged-old problem of groups of 'yoofs' hanging around and at the same time frustrated as they unable to do anything. I've personally given several a [diplomatic_language]severe ticking off [/diplomatic_language] on many occasions (which made me feel very very old!). Is this an issue of : lack of parental responsibility? lack of facilities and severe boredom? natural 'acting-out' behaviour? innate criminal anti-social behaviour? Has anyone *asked* these guys why they convene or behave so anti-socially? Are most of them even behaving badly? What motivates/excites them? What frustrates them? What are they interested in?

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Steve (16th Oct 2003 - 14:57:43) I think a lot, if not all of the problem is a large contingent of out of town "Yoofs" that come in from neighbouring villages and towns to loiter. I remember when I was a kid certain towns and villages were always the place to go of an evening just to hang out and annoy people. Liphook never seemed to have this problem, maybe because we all went to Liss or Petersfield. Maybe Liphook is or was up until recently taking it's turn. The problem is with so much development being carried out there are more places for these kids to loiter in and vandalise. I think the more places you make available for young people like skate parks etc the more youngsters that will come from outside to hang out. If as it seems that Liphook was just a fad/phase these kids were going through we may find that the problem goes away on it's own. The more development we do and the bigger the village gets the worse this problem could become. I'd prefer to see no more development for at least another 5-10 years.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Alex Cameron (16th Oct 2003 - 15:36:51) You may be right. Who actually has the power to implement solutions to these problems? Does the parish council have any whatsoever? Certainly in the case of Sainsburys there is a definite cause for lobbying the retailer to provide security guards for the outside of their store. Assumedly their PR department might like to think deeply about their 'commitment to the community' when they are considering the extra expense. The fact that there are issues when the store is opposite a police station is very worrying indeed. But do we stop short of adding new facilities for local yoof as to deter any further visitors? I think we need to look at the local 'hot-spots' and analyse just why they go there rather than anywhere else. Are there patterns and/or common denominators to vandalism and anti-social behaviour (e.g. anonymity)? Is the cause of the behaviour herd-mentality or individual cases of emotional instability?

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Freddie Dawkins (16th Oct 2003 - 18:30:07) Can Andy Woodage come back in to this discussion? Andy is one of the senior Scout leaders, so he has first-hand experience of what the kids can be like and as the Scouts and Guides are so popular and successful, he must have some good ideas about where to go from here. Of course, we have to provide for all the kids who don't want to be in the Scouts and Guideds. But the Football Club alone has more than 350 members, and the Bohunt Centre is always busy with it's various activities etc. The Beacon is only operating on one evening a week for a few hours. I'm meeting with the professional youth workers next week to get a briefing on what's happening, what's planned, funding issues etc, so I'll report back here. On Policing - I agree. Liphook's population is about 28,000. That's on the basis of an electrorate of just under 7,000 registered voters plus those not-registered x3. The actual ONS Census info is available online for exact numbers. We seriously have to ask: Are we getting value for money as taxpayers in this Parish? But we can't impose a planning freeze here. We have to manage development, not just accept everything. rgds to all here Freddie Dawkins Parish Councillor

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Mike Grimes (16th Oct 2003 - 23:50:39) I was intrigued by the choice of title for the thread. I thought Liphook was a village but what is the definition? I am sure I have come across smaller towns (and at least one smaller city). Are we approaching a definition boundary and does it mean anything to Liphook? Back on topic though, I see a theme developing that says "the more facilities we provide for youth, the more youth we attract, therefore the more 'wrong youth' (yoof) we attract". We must not fall into the trap of denying ourselves facilities for the wrong reasons. Another thing I'd noticed from other threads is that troublemakers often congregate around a source of take away alcohol e.g. the co-op in Headley Road (and was sorry to hear about Freddie's windscreens). Maybe local businesses could be persauded to be more responsible about who they serve alcohol to. Having said that, I was very pleased to hear that things seem to be better than they were, but it is important for us to understand why and then keep it that way. I'm actually quite new in Liphook and don't remember the 'way it was'. I moved here because of what it is now and hope it retains it's qualities whilst moving with the times.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Mike Grimes (17th Oct 2003 - 00:35:49) A bit of research re thread name. In England, a hamlet denotes a collection of houses, too small to have a parish church. A village has a church, but no market. A town has both a market and a church or churches. A city is, in the legal sense, an incorporated borough town, which is, or has been, the place of a bishop's see. So unless Mike's market counts, I guess we're a big village.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Freddie Dawkins (17th Oct 2003 - 10:17:54) Spot on, Mike. We are a large village. I don't know of another village in Hampshire with a fully staffed Parish Office, Ground staff, Millennium Centre staff etc. So you could say we have the accoutrements of a Town, without the piece of paper (and market) to prove it! But we should not concentrate on the perceived youth problems - of this village - or others, who come into Liphook. We have very little recent trouble, compared to earlier this year and the previous two years of "growing pains". The one gap that I can see for youth, is the lack of a drop-in centre, open 5 days a week. The Beacon attracted a dozen people last Tuesday, after a fairly quiet summer (everyone was too busy being outside enjoying the weather) to want to be inside. Now the colder nights are coming in, the choice is more limited. I'd like to see The Beacon operating 5 nights a week and expanding, adding more facilities. I'm dropping-in there next week, to meet the workers and the customers. The key, as always, will be funding. rgds to all here Freddie Dawkins Parish Councillor

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Andy Woodage (17th Oct 2003 - 10:40:45) Thank you Freddie for inviting my comment. The Scouts & Guides provide a large youth facility in our community (1st Liphook Scouts is the largest Scout Group in Hampshire) I like to think it is successful because of the support of the local community in providing dedicated leaders and facilities. The Scouts and Guides are not for everyone, although we are open to all we still suffer from an image problem with some of our young people (Something we are trying very hard to overcome) The answer is diversity in youth provision. I believe. In Liphook we do better than many in that we have thriving groups in Sport, Drama,Scouts/Guides and now the Beacon. the problem is not with Liphook but with our society, in my opinion. Values are not re-inforced due to excessive political correcteness, in some cases, and media does nothing to help with our Overpaid Sports and media "Stars" being constantly shown in lurid situations for the purposes of sensational journalism. What kind of example is there for young people to follow? I going to get off my soapbox now!

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Jenny (17th Oct 2003 - 12:12:49) Just to put a note into this discussion. I am 23 years of age and i have lived here since i was 9 years of age so i used to be one of the 'yoofs' in Liphook square. The problem being that i didn't have anything to do, there were clubs etc set up but didn't have what i wanted. Kids now need somewhere with a jukebox and a pool table for them to relax. They don't need to go somewhere where someone is going to talk to them about the dangers of drinking and smoking - if you want kids to be safe and in one place that kind of youth club has to stop and you have to think with the mind of a teenager. Remember what it was like to think the whole world was aganist you? Remember what it was like when someone started to tell you in your own free time ,that you just want to spend with your mates, that you shouldn't be doing what you are doing. Give the kids a skate park or somewhere to go on the bmx's - set up skate compititions (forgive the bad spelling), set up music nights where local bands made up of 13-16 year old can practice in front of an audience. Do this and you'll be meeting them half way and they are quite likley to meet you in the middle. jenny

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Steve (17th Oct 2003 - 12:15:14) I'd like to see all children go to the Scouts or Guides personally. I went to Liphook cubs and scouts next to the library when I was a wee boy and I think it's a perfect club/society for children to learn things that will help them in their future development. They learn through gaining their badges how to achieve things and the value of them. They also learch discipline and respect for other peoples property. Perhaps some sort of atvertising is required for the cubs/guides movement or are they already over subscribed? Some of the best times of my childhood was spent as a cub.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Andy Woodage (17th Oct 2003 - 12:45:25) No the Scouts are not over subscribed. We provide facilities for the demand, where possible. In 2001 I realised that The Beaver Section (6-8 yr olds) was a problem, in that we always had a waiting list. I was able to start a new Colony(making 3 in the group) to meet this need when leaders came forward from the community to help. Scouts is a voluntary organisation and it only exists if people offer their time. We generally are able to meet the need in Liphook. If there was more demand we would need to look at the situation and react accordingly. Andy woodage Group Scout Leader

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Jenny Alexander (17th Oct 2003 - 13:37:59) I was also a brownie, guide and a ranger and i agree this is a good atmosphere for children and teenagers to be in but it doesn't suit everyone. Has a survey ever been done at the local schools and groups to find out what it is the youths want? Or maybe to set up a kind of youth council to make them feel more part of the village and to give them a say?

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Mike King (17th Oct 2003 - 21:20:51) What a very interesting discussion. It is good to know that there is so much interest in the youth of Liphook. I will declare an interest in that I have been a "Scout" for over 50 years but have never considered it to be atractive to all young people. There needs to be a broad spectrum of activities to give the majority something to enjoy. There will always be a few who do not want to be organised and there is nothing can be done about them. However, what has to be avoided is one group saying they offer more for youth than another group, as was reported in todays Herald. Perhaps what Liphook needs is a Youth Council to bring all those groups together in a forum for the benifit of all young people.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Mike Grimes (18th Oct 2003 - 02:18:52) Thanks Andy and all your colleagues for the marvellous opportunities that scouting provides. I might add that my eldest is really looking forward to joining his beaver colony in January. I was a cubscout and a scout myself many years ago and remember being glad that I did it. I also seem to remember that it was my decision to stop when it became less relevant to me. The point of this post is to emphasise that whilst adult organised / supervised activites might be relevant to young people there comes a point when they want to assert their independence. No, I have got that wrong - they are born wanting to assert their independence but there comes a point when it becomes all powerful. Anyway, next point, one of my most powerful memories of school is being allowed (at age 17), to organise a field trip for a couple of classes of younger pupils. They and a few teachers went off orienteering whilst a couple of mates and I directed the coaches to the next pub/checkpoint. It was brilliant being able to send our teachers off on long walks, we had planned, whilst we sat in the pub. Could it be that the reason for behavioural problems today is that those in authority allow youngsters no freedom. Think about it, most things are either not allowed or else they are compulsory. Basically, we think we know what is best for them. And it probably is, but they need to find that out for themselves - just as we did, but I didn't find it out inside a Ford Galaxy.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Alex Cameron (18th Oct 2003 - 12:31:24) Without wanting to dampen spirits or wee on the proverbial bonfire... 28,000 people with only 7000 registered voters???? I can definitely see how scouts/brownies could cater for the adventurous/explorative tendencies in childhood, however it stops short of being a real candidate later on (i.e. the teenage years). With respect, when you're a teenager and all your friends are talking about having sex, drinking, drugs and all the crazy things they did last night, scouts and/or guides just isn't cool. Having a say is, but how many teenagers do you honestly know that care enough about anyone other than themselves and their friends that would want to be on a toothless 'youth council' set up to appease them? I had 2 very interesting experiences this week in regards to anti-social behaviour in Liphook. One was a discussion with another poster (Andy) who recalled several incidences of crimes committed by people from other towns premeditatively picking on newer areas with less facilities to stop them (notable cases tended to involve people from Leigh Park). This was in relation to remembering a WPC i know explaining to me that a large degree of the burglary problem is the A3 bypass - those with malignant intent just 'pop in' to steal and 'pop off' back on the main road just as quickly. Interestingly, the car hijacking on the longmoor road was apparently two thugs demanding to be taken to portsmouth. Could we influence the state of affairs by asserting control of the entry/exit points to the town? Is there a case for CCTV or other such controlling provisions? The second was seeing a 13 year old (year 9) boy last night who had been beaten up in Manor Fields. He said he was a victim of continual bullying at school and in the village. Apparently he had been randomly punched by 'unknown' assailants and that violence in his year was not uncommon by any stretch of the imagination. Kids spend 5 days a week at school - how could the collaboration of parents, teachers and the council help the situation more? We can do nothing to control society in general (or the media), only our community. And yes i agree with andy - diversity of provision is the key. However, the provision must be clearly though out in terms of the motivation of youth and the stimuli they respond to. I believe that comes from a deep and lucid understanding of what kids are genuinely interested in (painful as that may be), and what is lacking that makes them seek the same stimulation through more anti-social means: be it video games, MTV, music, showing off, adventure, looking cool, impressing their friends, being rebellious, smashing things, fast cars and all the rest. Kids only respond to things they are personally interested in - providing facilities we think they will like is not enough. They see through such cheesy attempts quicker than anyone else. Those energies/needs for asserting independence need to be channelled and directed so they are satisfied. How do we provide means to *specifically* fulfil those urges that spill out elsewhere? Anti-social behaviour will always be with us, but the realistic aim is to simply reduce its impact. If they want to do up their cars, could we teach them mechanics? If they want to drive fast, could we build a banger racing or dune-buggy course? If they want to blast their stereos, could we give them rehearsal rooms? If they have problems in their personal life, could we give them counselling? If they want to fight, could we give them a boxing ring or gym? If they want to skate, could we build a skate park and get professional boarders to come down and teach? And my personal interest, if they just play video games could we use games to teach them the national cirriculum? (i'll answer that when i meet DfES next month). I even think this site is a brilliant solution in itself - a new medium that facilities discussion that probably would not happen otherwise. Now kids really love the internet....

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Mike Grimes (16th Nov 2003 - 00:13:06) I refer to my earlier posts regarding whether we are a village or a town, (village by most definitions.) But I was disturbed to read this weekend that Sainsbury's would like us to become a town in order to further their case for a 30% increase in size of their local village store. Maybe if we redefined 'Market' to include 'Supermarket' we could become a town (but would we want to?). Anyway, the point of this post is to express a desire that the people of Liphook decide what we are, not Sainsbury's. Having said that I am not against the Sainsbury's expansion, I just do not think that the village's history should be fiddled with in order to get it through.

Re: Village/Town - The Next Decade Discussion - Freddie Dawkins (17th Nov 2003 - 10:33:11) Mike - I'd agree. It's for the villagers to decide - certainly not a supermarket chain. Just shows what Sainsbury's thinks of it's customers and neighbours! Freddie

Are we a village or a town? - ChrisTaylor (21st Nov 2003 - 21:40:24) I was interested to read about the request by Sainsburies for a store extenstion, thinking it a good idea. Interest turned to concern on reading about the planned new house building that was cited by them as a case for Liphook's future as a town, not a village. Apart from the well regulated local plan, is there anything else in the pipeline that we don't know about?

Re: Are we a village or a town? - Freddie Dawkins (22nd Nov 2003 - 13:18:20) Chris - At last Monday's Parish Council Planning Committee meeting, there were a few updates which could affect the next 10 years here in Bramshott & Liphook. 1. Lowsley Farm development (apart from the fairly small though significant development going through application processes at the moment) has been moved down the reserve list from third to 14th place. So it's fairly unlikely it will be built on in the next 10 years. 2. One of the the real problem facing us appears to be back land development. There have been a stream of applications to build more densely in parts of back gardens around the village. 3. Tunbridge Crescent: it looks more likely that there will be a development, but it will be smaller and more appropriate to the area. 4. From what I've seen of the Sainsbury's plans - which have now gone to a public inquiry next year - there is a proposal to have a one tier car park, above some of the existing parking/unloading area. This will be a major change in parking provision in the Parish. 5. Councillors have talked a fair bit about an underground car park, when the final bit of the OSU is developed. It would give us more parking near the station and shops and yet be invisible. 6. Bordon/Whitehill development could have quite an impact on what happens here. As the MoD releases land, and if more housing goes up, it will take the strain off this Parish and it's housing allocations. Hope this helps. And can I remind everyone that they are very welcome to attend Planning Committee meetings. Next one is on Monday December 8, 8pm, Parish Office, Haskell Centre, behind Alldays site. Cllr Simon Coyte is finalising Notes from the last Planning Forum, and they will be available soon from the Parish Office. Freddie Dawkins Parish Councillor

Reply to THIS thread
Talkback Home