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'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Niall Greenwood (24th Apr 2006 - 08:14:39)
I thought I'd better let people know that a group of travellers arrived on Sunday 23 Apr 06 at the derelict hotel site next to the A3 approximately one mile south of Hindhead/land adjoining Bramshott Common- I'm afriad I can't remember the Hotel's name. I believe this land is privately owned, by an absent landlord? I have emailed EHDC, and pointed out that the site is clearly unsafe, and unsuitable even for temporary stopover. I believe that the police have also been informed. I also understand from a neighbour that this has happened before.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Paul Robinson (24th Apr 2006 - 08:27:00)
This has indeed happened before and after each occupation and eventual eviction the site is fenced off but this does not seem to deter further occupations
Those with longer memories will recall that one of the reasons for the advanced state of dereliction of what used to be 'The Spaniard' was the systematic stripping of the property of wood for fuel several years ago when the site was invaded by lorries and caravans.
Surely the time has come to bulldoze what is left of this eyesore before someone is injured as a result of a collapse either in on itself or onto the A3.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Steve Read (24th Apr 2006 - 18:51:52)
Paul,
Quite correct, amongst the last crowd were the usual
"Do your driveway mate, cheap" then they came back a few evenings later nicking anything not bolted down.
I think you will find the last owner of the Spaniard died suddenly leaving the property to his son who after failing for permission to build houses on the site decided to let the place go to ruin with a little help from travellers and locals alike.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Barbara Easton (27th Apr 2006 - 16:01:29)
Apparently the site is owned now by someone in London who has put in a planning application for a motel. The Local councillors are aware of the situation, but it is up to the private owner in the first instance to take action. Apparently he has no inclination for this at present. The most we can do is warn people who live in the vicinity that they are around. There seem to be a lot of children there, cannot the Education Department get involved?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- rob (11th May 2006 - 20:18:09)
... they're back on the OSU site, and in larger numbers than ever.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Eneida (12th May 2006 - 10:24:19)
Does that mean that nothing was done to secure the site after the last lot left ????
Eneida
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- JT (12th May 2006 - 15:50:48)
That last post was about the OSU site... not the Bramshott one by the way. Doesn't look there is much hope for that one given the private ownership issues.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Barbara (14th May 2006 - 14:25:01)
I was sorry to hear that the gypsies are back on the OSU site. I have in front of me an article relating to the planning permission applied for in April for the site. Apparently the owners of the site are ZOG 2 Ltd and I presume a look at their planning application at EHDCs website would reveal where they are based. It is up to them in the first place to take action, but if they do not, the council can serve the owners with a enforcement action which technically should motivate the owners to do something or the owners are taken to court. I imagine they moved from the spaniards as it was too far to walk to the pubs or shops. The council do have strong powers to act but I presume they are unwilling to use strong arm tactics in case of bad publicity. Basically squatting free on someones land is OK ,so perhaps we should all pitch our tents on the EHDCs car park in Penns place and see just how long it would take to be evicted forcibly!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Eneida (14th May 2006 - 15:00:15)
LOL Barbara!! I should imagine if you and I were to pitch a tent outside Penns Place we would be sent on our way very quickly indeed, unless we pretended to be an ethnic minority!
But as far as the OSU site is concerned, I can't really make up my mind which is worse as a centre piece for the village - a gypsy camp or a lorry park - spoilt for choice aren't we ;)
Eneida
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Re: Travellers in Bramshott/Liphook
- Niall Greenwood (16th May 2006 - 09:50:22)
Apparently the 'Travellers' have moved from the Spaniard, (they aren't there now), but back into Liphook.
I asked EHDC to see if they could get the site secured, and received this reply;
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From: XXXXX@easthants.gov.uk
Sent: 16 May 2006 09:25
To: Niall Greenwood
Subject: RE: Travellers at The Spaniard
Dear Mr Greenwood,
I have asked the owner to resecure the site, although I have no legal powers to enforce this. I have also served notice requiring the site to be cleaned of household waste.
I am also keeping the owner advised of the movements of the Travellers (who are currently in Liphook) so that he can be vigilent.
------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure whether this is progress or not!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Barbara (16th May 2006 - 16:30:06)
Thanks Niall for badgering the council about this, they possibly would do something if Sainsburys complained their takings were down. Usually Freddie Dawkins can advise on Parish Council matters-are they concerned Freddie? What can be done?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Les (16th May 2006 - 16:38:15)
Its not their takings that are down- it's their stock! and I expect every other shop in the village has been effected.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Paul (16th May 2006 - 20:25:41)
Since the pikey's turned up I had within 48 hours the one altercation with a member of their offspring (they breed like rabbits) who managed to pull a loose cobble from my drive and was literally getting ready to swing it at my car before I intervened.
They are a menace. Send them back to Bentley on the double.
As they have a flagrant disregard for the Law the dilemna is whether to confront them on your property or not, because they know where you live whereas all I know about them is that their house is off-white, angular and can be moved leaving me with a mess and a 'marked man'.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Dick (17th May 2006 - 18:35:06)
Les, Perhaps they are the "Stocktakers" for Sainsbury's........
Even so, they should be hounded out of the village and then the OSU site should be made secure so they can't come back.
Then, maybe, we will get planning permission passed and something actually built on this eyesore of a wasteland, instead of attracting the "Doasyoulikeys".
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Freddie Dawkins (18th May 2006 - 08:57:14)
Hi, Barbara, all here -
Sorry to be a bit slow - laptop is dead so limited access.
The Parish office are keeping a very close eye on the site and liasing with East Hants. It's the District Council which has to deal with this. As a PC, we do our best to forward information and liaise with local law enforcement
I'm concerned that the owner of the site has let the fencing fall down, left the gates unlocked, and generally done little to tidy the site. EHDC will do everything they can, within their powers, to improve the situation. But unless the site is secured, it's a problem that might repeat.
rgds
Freddie
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Eneida (18th May 2006 - 17:05:56)
It does seem strange that the owners of the OSU site did nothing to secure the site after the last 'invasion'...I wonder why not?
Perhaps we should all write to them and ask?
ZOG 2 Ltd.
15 Broadgates Avenue
Barnet
Herts. EN4 0NU
Eneida
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Poko (19th May 2006 - 10:37:15)
All... Was just after your advice really.. We're looking to move into the area from Slough (ugh), and have been looking at Haslemere and Camelsdale (we are on the verge of putting an offer on a place). However, we drove through Liphook and really liked it. Subsequently, we had a look at some houses in Liphook and found that we would get an awful lot more for our money than in Haslemere.
So, I have 2 questions... Firstly WHY is Liphook so much more affordable than Haslemere, which is only 4 miles away? Is there something that I'm not aware of? I thought that you guys might be the best to give me some advice as you live in the area :-)
Secondly, having read through this thread, the whole gipsy situation worries me somewhat. Are they now a permanent feature of Liphook, or at least, likely to be making regular visits?
Any advice is very gratefully received.
Dave
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Eneida (19th May 2006 - 11:35:57)
Hi Dave,
I can answer your first question very easily - Liphook is cheaper because it's in Hampshire - generally people will pay more for a Surrey address. It's a 'snob' thing!!
Eneida
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- ellen (19th May 2006 - 11:39:10)
Hi Dave
I cant answer your questions re the gypsy's or why prices are higher in Haslemere, though I would guess that his has a bigger station and is a bigger town BUT what I will say is that I grew up in Slough, yes YUK!, and know it very well and if u r thinking of moving to Liphook then u r making the right choice, the nice thing is if u still have family and friends in slough, as do I, then it only takes 45 mins from here to Slough so that is good. I would not worry too much re the gypsy situation though as they are everywhere, even Slough! and I have not experienced anything untoward. Good luck with the move
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Re: Travellers in Bramshott/Liphook
- Pie Key (aka Finchie) (19th May 2006 - 12:12:09)
Hi Dave,
We have just moved from Haslemere (a site on the A3 next to a run down pub), to Liphook (next to a lovely field conveniently located next to Sainsburys and the train station).
Best move we ever made. We have got much more land just by moving that 4 miles south. Also many more business opportunites locally as well. The local council seem so much nicer as well, letting us stay here rent free (I do hear they charge volunteer organisation horrendous rent tho').
Best bit is though, I am writing this from a high-spec laptop I recently borrowed and get free internet access provided by all the local residents that have not secured their wireless service. Can't wait to get onto eBay to sell some of my recently "acquired" wares.
Still waiting for a visit from the old bill, but I hear they were last seen a few months ago on a routine visit to the local school - sounds like a great school, I might register my 10 kids see if we can get in.
If anyone needs their drive doing, please do post a note and I would be delighted to quote for a cash-in hand job as I have a small amout of tarmacadam "left over" from a recent job. And just a pre-warning to be clear - when I mention a figure, that is just to start the job, double the figure to finish it. No one ever seems to get that ...
Such a lovely area - there is even some live music on soon in the village, and I might put myself forward for the monthly sing-along night at the Links. I do a great number by the Gypsy Kings.
I think we have found the almost perfect location, no one hassles us, cute frendly little village, I think I'd like to stay here forever - if only we could get a better train service - It would be just perfect if there was another train at 7am...
Cheers, Pie Key (aka Finchie) ;-)
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Poko (19th May 2006 - 14:28:02)
Thanks for your replies. Very funny Finchie :-)
Doesn't really help allay my fear of gypsies everywhere though!
It's incredible that the house prices would be so different because of the Surrey address! Daft thing is, that Camelsdale is actually in West Sussex. Looks like 3 counties meet right there!
I really couldn't care less if my address is Hampshire or Surrey.. to be perfectly honest, I think I'd prefer telling people I live in Hampshire!
I have had a look at upmystreet.com and you can get a certain amount of info there, but I much prefer the opinion of people living in the locale!
Thanks
Dave
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Re: Travellers in Bramshott/Liphook
- Liz (19th May 2006 - 14:46:02)
Apparently most of the travellers have left without leaving too much rubbish. Is anyone aware of a massive increase in 'dodgy' drive improvements or opportunist thefts or peg selling or any of the other cliches? I was astonished by the complete lack of tolerence in Liphook.
I can hear the responses. "We know what they're like"
Do we? Did anybody bother to find out. (I exclude those who merely wanted to tell them to get lost). How much harm did these people actually do by staying on disused land for a short period?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Eneida (19th May 2006 - 15:43:02)
My dear husband, having just come back from Guildford, tells me the gypsies are back on the Spaniard site...do you think the 'lack of tolerance' shown to them in Liphook put them off?
What a shame ;)
Eneida
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- j (19th May 2006 - 16:09:37)
'mmm' some of you have very short memories or perhaps you're just newbies - bircholt road was like that for years - that was until a developer came along and bought the land which enabled the people who lived there to buy 'a proper house' and give the new residents a nice new house to live in.
Don't knock it Liphooks foundations have been built by a transient population. Just think of it as Victorian Service station and all will become much clearer - nothing changes - traffic problems, odd people coming and going, I guess were just lucky the press gang dont return.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- liz (19th May 2006 - 17:06:44)
A little more historical perspective. Many years ago I was told (by someone from Haslemere) that Bordon is where the gypsies live but Liphook is where the educated gypsies live!
I read an interesting article in the Herald (also some time ago) written by the decendent of a former travelling family. He noted that the reason for so many former travellers in the area was the presence of the army. The tinkers/gypsies /travellers or whatever is pc used to travel to wherever the army was based to sell their goods.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Philip (19th May 2006 - 17:19:01)
Am just glad they are gone. Tolerance? I am a very tolerant person I'll have you know ...
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Paul Robinson (19th May 2006 - 21:54:06)
We moved to Liphhok twenty seven years ago when I was moved to our head office in Godalming. It soon became clear that we could not afford to live in what was then called 'stockbroker belt' and we drew ever increasing circles out from Godalming until we found something we could afford.
The choice was down to either Liphook, because it is just in Hampshire although a short dog walk and you are in Surrey (half an hour more and you can do Sussex as well and still be home in time for tea) or Cranleigh which, although it is described as the biggest village in England, does not have a station.
It may surprise many Liphook residents to know that travellers, as they are now called, were regular visitors to Liphook and the whole North Hants area was criss crossed with Romany routes dating back to the seventeenth cenury and before.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Allan (20th May 2006 - 01:13:53)
Ah! yes, Paul, but Romanys and travellers ain't the same thing.
Put blunt, Romany culture and habits hurt nobody.
Travellers,on the other, hand don't actually have a culture beyond pitching up where it causes most annoyance to those around them who pay taxes ,rates and their bills on the way out of Sainsbury's.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- barbara (20th May 2006 - 16:51:42)
I would like to respond to Liz who asked how much harm do Gypsies do? it is not a question of harm- The council have the job of clearing up after them when they leave- the cost is then passed on to Hampshire council tax payers, if you have ever wondered why council tax goes up and up this is one reason. Secondly they contribute nothing to local society,paying no council taxes, water rates or income tax. Electricity is gained free by tapping into the power lines. Just think how much they are gaining by claiming Benefits etc without ever having contibuted to our society. Yes they are entitled to all the benefits as someone else who is living at a permanant address. Any work they do is usually so shoddy that it is a rip off with no redress. It was reported in national newspapers that gypsies in Reading offered a gardening clearance service, dumped peoples rubbish in a local park, the taxpayer had to pay in the end for the cost of removal. Shall I go on Liz?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Stephen (21st May 2006 - 14:55:16)
What a load of Daily Mail hearsay and tittle-tattle.
Easy to sit in a middle-class armchair and tar one group of society with a slanderous brush. I'd like to see some of the purveyors of righteous guff go and speak to any of the travellors in person with their views. Rather do it quasi-anonomously behind a computer.
I don't give a stuff for human rights or anything but I'll always stick up for Tolerance - bacause there are only a few steps from there to Nazi Germany.
And for anyone who doesn't see that, can I quote a previous post "Don't worry about building. Just put the Bulldozers through and push them all the way to petersfield where they came from."
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (21st May 2006 - 17:47:50)
Please don't talk the old rubbish about tollerance, my estate has been infested by them since they arrived. They put down a dodgy tarmac drive at an elderly couple's house and scouted the estate while they were there. My neighbour and I had them trying to break into our back gardens while we were out, luckily foiled by an observant neighbour. One was seen knocking on doors and pretending to put leaflets through the letterboxes, obviously trying to find out who was in or out, he was talking in a fake English accent until he was challenged, when he then reverted back to his Irish tongue and launched a torrent of abuse. No, don't anyone dare talk rubbish to me about tollerance, my wife and I pay a fortune in tax, NI and council tax and we obey the law, in return we have these "people" inflicted on us and protected by a stupid human rights law that is taking away the human rights of decent UK citizens. The sooner this pathetic Labour government are removed and we turn the balance of fairness back in favour of the law abiding UK taxpayer the better.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- liz (22nd May 2006 - 09:45:36)
Barbara, you can carry on stating the obvious as long as you wish.
The situation is not ideal but it was the mindless aggressive attitude of the 'move them on' brigade which I didn't agree with. (See Stephen's comments on this).
Travellers are a problem across the country but the "run them out of town" attitude doesn't solve anything except for the nimbys.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Chris (22nd May 2006 - 13:48:29)
Let's face it, when it comes to invasion of privacy, destruction of the neighbouring environment, risk of crime and personal well being, we're all NIMBYs at heart!
All you have to do is look at images of what travellers can do to the sites they use (there was one on the South Today news this morning) to understand why most people resent them.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Barbara (22nd May 2006 - 18:03:49)
Thank you for all the replies on "Gypsies" I too have had bad experiences -only recently my friend and I were in a car and nearly hit one of their children, who was playing "chicken". He was about ten years of age, and had dug an enormous hole in the dip by the side of the road, and suddenly ran out in front of the car, laughing delightedly. If we had hit him, what do you think would have ensued? My opinions always come from my own experience, not tittle tattle or hearsay, I have not had a comfortable upbringing or ever claimed any benefits, I have worked, so I resent those who are able bodied and have never worked. OK if that makes me a sad person I don't care. Luckily a lot of people think like me!PS Mr Greenwood did go and speak to them on his own, and felt very threatened by them, he said they appeared to be high on drink or drugs. I am not a Nazi just because I have strong opinions. As much as this present Government tries to supress it we still have some freedom of speech thank goodness!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- katy (22nd May 2006 - 18:54:27)
Liz,
Thought you may be interested to know that I saw one of the gypsies shoplifting in Sainsburys (along with 2 others causing a distraction), also saw the bailiffs turfing them off the site early in the morning, so I guess this is why there wasn't too much mess left! Also saw two girls vandalising the fence on the site so as they say, I rest my case. If you want to know what else they got up to why not check with Sainsburys how many they caught shoplifting whilst they were here. All for being tolerant but lets get real!!!!!!!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (22nd May 2006 - 19:21:10)
Yes, talking of cleaning up the mess they leave, I sometimes used to walk my dog over on the football pitch and common land between Bordon and Lindford, until the Irish travellers moved on about two years ago. They were there for about a month and when they left you could not walk on the site without feeling physically sick. The council told me they had to send in a sanitary team and a general rubbish clearance team to clear the mess, total bill £ 11,000. How long are we as a country going to allow ourselves to be abused like this, to be fair the East Hants council do their best but are hamstrung by UK laws which allow these travellers to live a fruitfull existance.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Alex Cameron (22nd May 2006 - 19:29:12)
"all that rubbish about tolerance"? What an utterly *disgusting* thing to say. The sooner that generation's prejudices die with them, the better. These guys may not be your cup of tea and may have a stereotypical reputation that proceeds them, but how exactly how does it help to think and behave like that?
Well done Stephen for standing up against the grain and identifying the elephant in the room. Travellers and gypsies were one of the first groups of people to be exterminated in Nazi Germany:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porajmos
Why should we stop there? How about we go into middle England's distrust of Jews, Blacks and Johnny Foreigner?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Chris (23rd May 2006 - 05:23:51)
Hitler's vile persecution of the Romany peoples of eastern Europe was enacted because of their racial impurity not because they were shoplifting in Sainsburies and leaving a mess everywhere they went, having badly tarmacced Himmler's drive. I don't see any posts on this site advocating deportation of the Liphook travellers to Auschwitz-Birkenau, just some observations that the ones in question don't respect basic laws governing human coduct in a civilised society.
These people get the pc label of "traveller" but in most cases are no more part of that noble Romany race than you or I.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- liz (23rd May 2006 - 09:11:01)
Katy, How did you know the people you saw shoplifting in Sainsbury's were gypsies?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Eneida (23rd May 2006 - 09:35:59)
I think some of you have lost the plot!!
What has a situation that happened in another country before most of us were born got to do with it? We are talking about a group of people, (who happen in this case to be Travellers) causing a lot of annoyance and damage in Liphook today, in the 21C.
It is certainly not a 'generation' thing. Would people in their 20's be quite happy to have their hard earned belongings stolen? I don't think so.....get real.
Eneida
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Barbara (23rd May 2006 - 10:46:34)
Thanks for the replies and support! My sister in law is Irish, is very left wing and tolerant, yet has a severe dislike of Irish travellers. In her view, they were kicked out of Ireland, or left of their own accord, when the Irish goverment clamped down on them by stopping their benefits. Also Ireland is full of people who can do their own driveways! If all of us were to up sticks and join their way of life, there would be no child benefits, tax credits old age pension, supplementary benefits, millions of civil servants NHS and local authority workers would be out of a job! All those people who are in favour of them, please take one caravan each into your front or back garden/yard, or car parking space, and then be their friends for however long they want to stay in the Liphook area. Also I feel very offended at being thought a Nazi- One of my relatives was actually murdered by the government for being a communist in Poland when he was a student, so to label me as a Nazi is very hurtful!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Alex Cameron (23rd May 2006 - 11:47:10)
The point is about mentality and attitude, and its frightening a lot of people in this thread can't quite see that.
Disliking them or having bad experiences are one thing, but demonising an entire group of people is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Its certainly not "civilised", like everyone here seems to think they are. As if they are the only ones with badly behaved children or the only ones who shoplift!
What i believe we need to ask is why exactly the problem is here in the first place, which i suspect has a lot to do with local authorities failing to accomodate them properly. Out of sight may be out of mind, but that's not exactly a solution to what is a very long-term cultural issue.
By the way, their persecution was not to do with racial impurity, as they were of Aryan descent. Their "impurity" was due to mixing with other races during their travels. As Martin Luther King pointed out, everything Hitler did was legal in Germany.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Les (23rd May 2006 - 15:09:51)
Well said babs. This is a great thread - keep it going!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (23rd May 2006 - 15:51:03)
Here we go, the bleeding hearts brigade strike again. Anyone who flys the flag for the liberties of these people has never been in conflict with them as I have. I was forced out of a previous home because of them, believe me they are impossible to deal with and can be as nasty as it's possible to be. What about the shop manager in another part of the country who stopped two traveller women shoplifting in his store? when he locked up that evening he was beaten to death by a group of her male relatives, that was on the TV news. Or the lovely black female teacher from Grayshott who had one of the women force their way in front of her at a shop queue just because she was black, when the lady protested, she was viciously racially abused and told by her tormentor that he was a traveller & was going to take her outside and beat her to a pulp, this was witnessed by my wife and others in the Grayshott shop. If I could wish one thing it would be this, all the naive do gooders and libertarians should have to live next to them for a month. They would soon find that they would'nt be able to leave their house through fear of theft and property damage and their confinement would be like a living hell due to the noisy, messy, selfish and anti-social nature of the way they live. At least Babs seems to have her head firmly in the real world.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- katy (23rd May 2006 - 17:14:37)
Liz,
I know they were the gypsies from the site as I had seen them going in and out of the caravans earlier! Sorry to disappoint you but I was not jumping to conclusions! The facts speak for themselves.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Barbara (23rd May 2006 - 17:44:05)
Dear Alex, you are sadly incorrect in your facts. One, the Gypsies arrived in Europe at the beginning of the eleventh century from other continents, probably asia, they were nicknamed "Gypsies"being very dark people thought they were "Epyptians", so they were non-aryan. Wrong fact number two, the travellers in Liphook are Irish, nothing to do with Gypsies. You preach to us in Liphook about tolerance yet how tolerant are you? You have insulted the people of Liphook with your extremist language and have forgotten that we are at heart decent non violent people. How did the war in Serbia start? By one ethnic group persecuting another. What you have here is very different, travellers squatting illegally on private land, and a local population not able to do anthing about it. If I were to break in and live in your shed for a week would you mind?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Alex Cameron (23rd May 2006 - 17:47:49)
Are you just whingeing, or do you actually have any other idea what to do? Its amazing how quickly true colours shine through.
Bleeding hearts? Libertarians? Thats hilarious and typically trite. We all know the world isn't as black and white as right wing dramatists would have us all believe. The "we pay taxes" argument is equally meaningless - your taxes paid for a war in Iraq, the banning of foxhunting and pointless bureaucracy and nobody heard you screaming then.
What a few of us here are asking is that we all look beyond the immediate experiences we have had, see the good in people and do our best to communicate so we can all get along. Thats not naive, its essential. What's the alternative?
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Re: Travellers in Bramshott/Liphook
- Alex Cameron (23rd May 2006 - 17:57:38)
You think thats extremist language? You need to get out more. I don't recall insulting the people of Liphook, although i can imagine that it would be quite easy, given how fragile the egos of some are. Someone needs to do it, as i can imagine there are a lot of people reading this site and laughing at all of us.
Yes, i get the fact its private land, that they don't do quality work and a percentage of them are involved in criminal activity.
Firstly, don't employ them to do your driveway (duh?). Secondly, landlords need to get fined for poor security that impacts the community at large and the Hants authority needs to do more to accomodate them in fxied areas if at all possible. Thirdly, these people experience social problems like the rest of us do, which we need to work together to fix.
Am i not communicating the point here effectively or is there a general reading problem? Personally, i couldn't give a t*** either way, I just find the self-righteous, sanctimonious outrage of the middle class uttely absurd and more offensive than you find dissent.
P.S. Happy to email you upwards of 5 sources for that info other than Wikipedia if you want it. All on public record.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Barbara (23rd May 2006 - 18:44:56)
Why has this degenerated into personal insults Alex? One, I am not middle-class, What exactly does that mean? two Why should the people of Hampshire pay to clear up then mess of people who decided to get the ferry over from Ireland specifically to milk the system here rather than stay in Ireland. I have been personally threatened by one when I refused to have my driveway altered. If you find them so peaceful and non threatening and law abiding I am sure their site can accomodate another tatty caravan! It is confrontational attitudes such as yours which cause conflict. What about my Human Rights Alex? Do not make assumptions about people just because they do not share your opinions!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (23rd May 2006 - 19:47:58)
Ah, a foxhunter ! that explains why you're unable to see things from a fair, humane & rational point of view, oh, & it sounds like you might receive more from the state than you give. As for Iraq, my taxes were spent on a short 3 month conflict that was supposed to liberate a people from a real war criminal & tyrant who broke 18 UN resolutions and murdered millions of people from neighbouring countries including his own, ( strange talk for a whinging nimby ) the Iraqi conflict ( not war ) since then has been because of terrorism from outside influences and die-hard Sadam supporters who are as guilty of genocide as he is. And to show how impartial I am, I detest this Labour government & the socialism that's killing this country, but I would never use Iraq as a cheap mechanism to try to remove them, oh ! unless maybe I was unhappy that Tony had stopped me taking pleasure in ripping a beautiful fox to shreds. If these Irish travellers stopped stealing, obeyed the law, paid taxes and stopped making people's lives a misery then I would hold out a friendly hand, it won't happen though because they only see us as targets and fools.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Dick (23rd May 2006 - 21:03:43)
I don't really have an opinion on gypsies apart from the fact that they are Lazy, uneducated, dirty, tax dodging, licence evading, insurance dodging, rude, thieving good for nothing layabouts.
Apart from that, I don't have an opinion....
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Re: Travellers in Bramshott/Liphook
- Alex Cameron (23rd May 2006 - 22:04:11)
[This post has been calmed down at the request of the editor]
I'm no foxhunter - i've always been totally against. Very, very glad it got banned.
So how about we dig into the last two points and put them in their most basic form as is often done in analysis of historical conflict:
a) They offended me, and/or someone i know, therefore i dislike their kind.
b) They should be more like normal people. Vote tory.
These aren't personal insults, nor are any of the points i've made. They are a strongly-worded argument in the context of a debate. I can assure you i have nothing against you personally. In fact i'd be more than willing to buy you a drink and debate it heartily.
But all this detracts once again from the central point, which is that there have been no workable solution or helpful trains of thought suggested to resolve the problem and it could be easily argued that people here are actively taking part in prejudice against a group of people.
There is a much larger issue at hand which is bigger than personal grievances, which i'm sure are very genuine. (no sarcasm)
This is about how we react to people who live differently to us, and about how we tolerate that difference. Its about how we approach problems and disputes like this. Its about how effective our council and government have been in dealing with it.
Let me perhaps illustrate it - once they are moved on from here, where do they go then? Somewhere else that has to deal with the same problem again. What happens next time they arrive here?
Rights are rights, no matter who you are. You have them, i have them, and they have them. Don't like the human rights act? China will welcome your emigration with open arms. Who stops hating first to hold out the friendly hand?
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Re: Travellers in Bramshott/Liphook
- Allan (24th May 2006 - 01:46:55)
Alex,
Do you really think you are right in your view that we all should just subjegate ourselves to the whim of those who would dictate the moral standard the community should accept because it is their's. In which case we can all go robbing and ripping off,( mind you, anybody who fell for the "do your drive cheap, guv,almost deserves what they get.)
The question of victimisation against these people is a total non-starter because they victimise, themselves ,the communities they choose to decend upon.
If you invited someone into your home to provide a service,that is your choice. To be intimidated into accepting something is different.
Bottom line is this; nobody wants to share their life and life standards.
I know you to be a reasonably intelligent human being and cannot understand your obvious empathy with these people.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Chris (24th May 2006 - 05:22:05)
People's actions go before them and travellers have a bad reputation (in general) because of their deeds and actions. I have not read of one instance in recent memory where travellers have been welcomed with open arms because they purposefully allienate themselves from the communities within the areas that they choose to settle. I think, Alex, that it's collective bad behaviour that the majority of us abhor, rather than the individual perpetrators. Those of us that object have a right to express concern and take action; those that don't can choose to tolerate it. But I can't imagine anyone in their right minds will actively encourage travellers to settle near or next to them, including you.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- liz (24th May 2006 - 09:28:58)
Presumably now that the travellers have gone and are someone else's problem, Liphook will return to its previous idyllic self. We can leave doors, windows and cars unlocked, trust all traders to do an excellent job and be sure that no-one is wasting our taxes!!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (24th May 2006 - 09:33:24)
OK, yes I speak with anger and intolerance towards them, that's because I know what they are capable of and I despise the stupidity of our acceptance of their desire to live a way of life which allows them to opt out of collective responsibilty, yet also being able to draw on the fruits of national social provision while at the same time abusing the rights of the taxpayers who provide it for them. Calming myself down & looking into the sentiment of people such as yourself I can see that there is obviously good in you, my anger is obviously at the travellers first, but secondly it's aimed at the underlying weakness of society that permits minority groups to abuse progressive civilisation citing "way of life" or "culture" as an excuse. You mention facts so I will oblige you, these people live this way of life because they are selfish, they regard the money they "earn" or steal as their own, they see taxation as legalised theft, their philosophy is to take & steal from the idiots like us who do provide the funds for social provision, they live a hectic, confusing & transient way of life only for one reason, to make it hard for the police, tax office & national insurance, or the DVLA to ever get a fix on them or to hold them to account. There is a way of ending their abuse, if we were to set up a task force to follow the vans and lorries during the day, they'd find it virtually impossible to steal, work taxfree for cash, flytip rubbish at the local beauty spot or quiet road, or con old folk into having a dodgy tarmac drive only to then demand ten times what they quoted for before they started the job. This would then force them to respect and live within the law or force them back to Ireland. The trouble with that strategy is that we'd have an outcry across the land from people claiming that the authorities were abusing their human rights, *WE CAN'T WIN*
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Re: Travellers in Bramshott/Liphook
- barbara (24th May 2006 - 11:15:14)
Thanks editor for calming down Alex's posts.
Human Rights Act has been quoted recently everywhere and should not be invoked to defend acts of illegality. Alex is lucky to live in a country which is one of the most socially generous in the world, and also the most tolerant. This is achieved partly by ordinary hard working people being willing enough now to work on until nearly seventy years of age to fund the social obligations. Will the spoilt I-Pod generation be willing to do this in future? By the way Alex there is a vacancy in the big brother house- they would probably think you were cool. On a more serious note the travellers have moved onto National Trust land up at Hindhead. Why should we have the answers for them Alex? Why should we feel responsible for them? Even the law abiding Irish cant abide them! We are not talking asylum seekers here so wise up to what they are like. If I behaved in such a way I would have ended up in Prison by now as they have my address. One can still go to prison in this country for not paying TV licence or Council Tax ,who enforces the law like this for travellers? No body? They do not want a permanant home- if they do offer them yours!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Les (24th May 2006 - 12:15:01)
Anyone thinking of taking a walk around the punchbowl today may want to think again - the pikies have set up camp in the cafe carpark! Surrey is a better postal address than Hampshire!.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Alex Cameron (24th May 2006 - 12:46:27)
Lets be clear - nowhere did i advocate the use of the Human Rights Act to defend criminality. I know a lot of people believe thats what it is abused for, but illegality is illegality, full stop. The very same people who complain about the HRA are the ones who claim they need its protection most.
Tolerance and peace in this country are typically achieved in spite of the attitudes of those you mention, not because of it. That "spoilt iPod generation" you mention (that i am almost certainly a part of) will be the ones funding nursing homes and cleaning up the horrendous mess our predecessors have left us. No generation is perfect, i understand that, and than god we're not in the 50s anymore.
We have no choice as to whether to deal with these problems - we have to. The attitude you seem to have, and is commonly shared, is the very reason why you don't see young people voting in elections, contributing to their communities and debating on message boards like this one.
The very thing you criticise is caused by your criticism and the infectious malaise that results from conflicting beliefs and people's level of acceptance of the change we've gone through as a culture and society.
Barbara - what is your solution?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (24th May 2006 - 12:51:44)
I really do hope that them being camped at Hindhead NT is a joke ! cos if it's true they are still going to target the area, including Liphook
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Les (24th May 2006 - 15:24:56)
No Joke! As at 7.30 this morning around 20 vans/trucks/burnt out cars washing machines and fridges and the od matress were packed into the NT car park. Unless it was the Caravan Club!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Eneida (24th May 2006 - 17:51:11)
They're probably on their way to Hampton Court for the Spring Bank Holiday Fair on the Green.
I used to live near there for many years and we always had the pleasure of their company at that time of the year ;)
Eneida
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Steve Read (24th May 2006 - 21:28:30)
I blame Ben for booking the travellers in last week to take the heat away from the live music night in the Anchor.
It worked Ben.
Us nimbys have got to stick together. LOL.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- barbara (24th May 2006 - 22:13:57)
I expect now that the travellers have moved to Hindhead there will be less discussion, so here is one observation mainly for Alex of course-why don't we set up instant messaging? Regarding your comments "the very thing you criticise is caused by your critiscm " I did not follow. Maybe I am thick being older than you! I criticise things all the time-Just ask my husband ! eg binge drinkers, graffiti, violence, surely I am not responsible for other people's bad behaviour? What came first in the case of the travellers? The bad behaviour or the critiscm? If people do not impinge on my life I would have no reason to complain. When they do affect me I have the right to speak out. I personally know the descendants of some of the Bordon/Whitehill Gypsies and I do not criticise them for the things their parents did. For the most part, once they became settled with children and property in this area the next generation became {generally] responsible people. The travellers here at the moment decided to leave Ireland for the South East of England, because we are perceived as a wealthier place to park their caravans than perhaps Wales, where they would have first arrived from the ferry. If I decided to live that way in Southern Ireland I would not be made very welcome if I set about antagonising the locals by shoplifting etc, I would probably be on my best behaviour to fit into the local way of life. I have been to Ireland and like Irish people, they are a friendly close knit community, I can not think why anyone would want to leave such a lovely place, just to live on the A3, but they did, for economic reasons obviously. It is possible they would not be welcomed with open arms back home. I have enough on my plate with day to day living without thinking I should be personally responsible for travellers also.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- N (25th May 2006 - 00:28:59)
well when i drove past early this afternoon i did laugh to myself at first sight of those who are camping in the NT car park as all i could think was the outrage it would cause to all of you!! but on closer inspection whilst sat in the traffic on the way home i noticed there were no wild dogs burnt out washing machines or alike nor were there any childern running around. not only do some of you have very narrow minded views on things but you insist on sterotyping every one 'gyspies' 'chavs' 'traverllers' 'i-pod generation' for goodness sake people get a life. surely you must have something better to do like take your caravans away with the kids for half term..... :-)
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (25th May 2006 - 08:47:25)
To N
When & if one day you find them trying to break into your back garden as I have, say this to them, " I'm sorry that my fellow residents have stereotyped you as being annoying travellers who steal from people, now can you kindly leave before I call the police !" I'm sure they will hold their hands up and say, ( in best slang Irish ) "Well thanks guv, at least someone has the decency to respect our thieving way of life without resorting to stereotyping us, good day to you guv #/*!#>+# " --------People of Hampshire, N has just given us a lesson in abject complacency & irresponsibilty. Good day Guvs & Guvesses.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- liz (25th May 2006 - 10:49:12)
Barbara you say that "I personally know the descendents of some of the Bordon/Whitehill gypsies and do not critcise then for the things thair parents did". What "things" did their parents do? - And are the people that you know aware that you regard them in such a patronising manner? Are you tarring everyone in a particular group with the same brush once again?
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- joe (25th May 2006 - 11:23:47)
you are very slow to notice thay have broken their way into the common opissit the spaniard
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- barbara (25th May 2006 - 11:38:52)
Dear Liz, when I say I know, yes I do know them, they are not"best friends" but I do personally know what happened. It would not be fair to name them but in general terms, land years ago was not worth anything compared to today when everybody seems to want to sell their garden to build a house and make a quick buck. What happened was the traveller father of an aquaintance of mine drove his caravans onto land he didn't own in Whitehill, then staked a claim of ownership by tarmacing over the land and parking caravans there. Unfortunately years ago the law was quite different in terms of squatting, after a certain number of years he could apply for legal ownership after squatting there rent free. The daughter herself has told us this story, it is not a case of making it up- the caravan park still exists and has recently been sold for over 3 million pounds. Perhaps they still have the same idea for the Spaniards Inn? I am not patronising anyone, by telling you this, I find it patronising to be labelled a right wing fox hunting Tory just because I have an opinion. In fact I vote Green Party. My mother at 80 years of age was recently cautioned by the police for praying in the street and professing her Christianity. What a topsy Turvey world! I also have a right to my point of view however un pc it is so sorry!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- liz (25th May 2006 - 15:29:05)
Dear Barbara
Hmmm. If you are talking about who I think you are talking about (and you may not be of course- no names please), I have reason to believe the daughter might have been telling you a tale.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Alex Cameron (25th May 2006 - 16:07:06)
Barbara what i meant is that if people insist on criticising, excluding and labelling a younger generation, you can safely assume that they aren't going to feel too inspired to contribute to their community. If they then don't contribute, you call them selfish and spoilt.
And no, you are not responsible for someone else's behaviour, naturally. And nobody is saying you personally should be. But that argument in a playground would typically be translated as "its their fault, they started it", which isn't helpful. We all have a collective responsibility as a village and community to be involved in reconciling differences and resolving problems. All of us.
I think what some of the other posters here have picked up on is the crass generalisations that are being made. I'd be interested in knowing exactly why someone was cautioned for praying (in the street?) and evangelising her faith. What law was she breaking?
Interestingly, my dad went out to dinner last night with a group of people from Liphook. Now he's a chap with strong opinions, but even he was taken aback when one of the residents he was eating with confessing to "not liking the blacks".
Now if we apply the "gypsy" mentality in this thread, that means we'd say everyone in Liphook is a racist. Not so, but there are still people who live here who harbour the most appalling attitudes. Its up to each one of us to reconsider what we believe and question whether its fair.
P.S. None of us have any right to call anyone else uneducated if our basic literacy is so poor that we spell "opposite" as "opissit".
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- barbara (25th May 2006 - 19:29:23)
Dear Alex, I think it is dangerous to stray into the realms of racsim. I have encountered people from all races due to working in London in a public capacity for over twenty years, and you would be surprised how racsist some non-white people can be. I once went to a party on my own in Brixton and went out of my way to talk to most people, and was cold shouldered by the whole room for being the wrong colour, I was not welcomed. Turning to the question of Law, the law invoked was disturbing the peace, in the case of my mother. She herself has suffered here most of her life, because of her European accent, so I know a lot about how people behave when someone is different. I was very upset with you in an earlier posting, not that you would have known then, but my mother lived through the terrible years of the second world war in Germany. Her best friend was disabled, and when the Nazis came to power, her friend was one of the first people to be sent to the gas chamber in Dachau. Ordinary German people had a horrendous time there, this is never talked about in the media here, the Russians also perpetrated gross atrocities on the civilian populace. She survived for a time eating raw cattle beet from a field, and clothing was taken in the wintertime, for survival from dead soldiers. She managed to come over here because there was no work for her where she was, also there was no schooling for ordinary children during the war years, in her village so she was not well educated. She was immediately given work cleaning up in a place similar to Broadmoor, with no choice given to her by the English Authorities. For the rest of her life her she has has been given the taunt of "Nazi", by young and old people alike, purely because she had lived over there for the first few years of her life. I do not dismiss the whole of the younger generation as ignorant at all but I do think that it has been easier for them to be manipulated by the media because when I was growing up there was very little television. I have always questioned what I have been told by anyone, but do you question what you learned in school or college? I recall you in an earlier post talking about an older generation not being able to accept "change" This is political brainwashing at its' most dangerous. Ordinary people now have so little power to effect any change themselves, except when the general election comes along, so it is dangerous not to vote or get involved. We get the Governments we deserve that way. Parish councils have very little power, District Council appear to preface every questioning with "John Prescotts Office have told us what we are supposed to do, on Phone Masts etc. Simple answer, dont buy a mobile phone to use if you don't want a phone mast! I will not bore Liphook anymore so please dont pre judge people just for their opinions! l
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Phil K (25th May 2006 - 19:46:30)
Very well said Alex, however it's not about prejudice or racism, or even romantic and misguided notions of acting the heroine and sticking up for the minority. It's about reality and fairness, these travellers are able to do what they do, ( and please don't say they aren't sponging crooks ) because they are constantly being wrongly defended by an outspoken minority. It's sickening having to listen to people standing up for their rights and playing the racism or minorities card while in the meantime these travellers are being funded by decent honest taxpayers. Yes I most certainly do object to them claiming for this and that and breaking every law of the land and then when they cut their hands while trying to nick someones lawnmower they are the first to go running to the NHS.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- liz (26th May 2006 - 12:39:21)
Barbara
I am surprised that the experiences of both you and your family have not left you less quick to judge and more aware that certain individuals are not necessarily representative of a group.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- barbara (26th May 2006 - 19:44:56)
I agree we all do judge too quickly including young people who judge those who do not share their opinions, as old and reactionary. I was particularly shocked to read that "the sooner the older generations opinions cease to be the better!" We mostly have a comfortable life now thanks to generations of hard working people and the hardships they went through as young people, should not be taken lightly. What I am trying to get across also is that people do milk the system shamelssly.. What shocks me also is that we are very busy being very PC and careful what we should be thinking and feeling about minorities etc whilst elderly people are perhaps stuck in old peoples homes with only their prozac for company. I have heard recently < not on this webpage but from young people in liphook> that there should be euthanasia as a matter of course for the elderly, whilst if I was to utter an opinion which wasn't PC the young would be shocked. We have a scandalous amount of elder abuse, which in my opinion includes giving out too many prescription drugs, why are young people not up in arms about that?- I quote from Midhurst Town council magazine-Grants already awarded for 2006- Midhurst Resource Centre. Outreach Youth Workers Scheme. Grange Centre. Citizens Advice Bureau. Outset Youth Action Midhurst Community Bus, Midhurst YouthWing Summer Activity 4 Sight, Vitalise. The youth have a big slice of attention there! Not much for the elderly! I noticed also on the Scouts and Guides thread, in their accounts- Visit to Liberty X should we not encourage them also to mix with the elderly who see no visitors except the district nurse? It is only by spending time young and old together that we will understand each other and also if one has to swallow un pc arguments so be it!
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- A (26th May 2006 - 23:07:57)
Barbara,
I do not think you can bring the Scouts & Guides into your argument about 'elder abuse'. Yes, it is true that they do modern things like go to pop concerts etc. However, they also help the community in many ways, including the elderly. Infact, at Christmas the Rainbows (they're the 5-7 year old girls) went to a local nursing home to sing carols with them. I also saw a fair few elderly people at the Ragers table top sale a couple of months ago so it doesn't seem to me that they have a problem with all of the youth, especially not the Scouts & Guides.
I am aware that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and obviously this is your's but i just wanted to point out that a large proportion of them do care about the eldery and do show this in a number of different ways.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- barbara (27th May 2006 - 14:18:06)
Dear A sorry if I got it wrong on Scouts and Guides, when I was a guide many years ago the only outing on offer was a camping trip 5 miles away from home! Ps I wsh them well as this organisation is good for Liphook and hope that there is an amicable resolution to the accomodation issue.
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- s ray (2nd Sep 2009 - 21:27:52)
[editor - the content of this post has been removed at the request of the poster on the 16th June 2010. It did not appear to contain any content that needed to be removed. Some following posts may refer to this deleted content.]
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Re: 'Travellers' in Bramshott/Liphook
- Mick S (3rd Sep 2009 - 20:10:28)
Hi S Ray and others.
Whole hearted agree with you and I remember your family well. (Went to school with Mary who I believe may be your sister and remember your father selling logs on a regular round in the village. My parents bought from him). I also remember the families Light, Keat, East and Brown from the Bircholt Road area.
I too am from the travelling fraternity, my grandfather settling in to a permanent home in 1913 in Bramshott and even today, I still have "traveller" and "pikey" thrown in my face and I dispair of the Gorgios ( non travellers) for never letting people get on with their lifes and wanting to label people, sometimes to that persons detriment.
I hadn't seen this thread before but I was not surprised at the vehemence and ignorance of some of the contributors on this thread towards travellers, tinkers, showmen and romani's and to them I say this; "Were lullero adoi we don't jin the jib". A literal translation from the traveller speak is "We are dumb where we do not understand the language". I will allow the words to speak for themselves.
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