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Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (25th Mar 2006 - 09:36:21) You should be aware that we, the representatives of the Scouts and Guides, have been in negotiations with the Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council over a definitive lease for the halls, for many years, long before we moved into them some six years ago. We were originally promised a lease on a peppercorn rent but this proposal has not been passed into any form of leased proposed. Negotiations over the years have centred on the ‘right’ level of rent, a final form of lease in an otherwise generally acceptable form having only recently been proposed. Every time we thought we were approaching an acceptable figure for rent the Parish Council introduced new matter, which we could not accept. We have only on one occasions had the opportunity to speak to the whole Council, mostly we have spoken to just two or three and we do not know what they report back to the Council as a whole as the discussions are held in Closed (secret) Sessions. There is of course a lot more to this than I could add to this letter but we are now at a critical stage. The Parish Council has most recently suggested rents of £6000.00 each per annum, service charges and insurance on top and we would still be paying all the utility bills. This amounts to an annual bill to Scouts and Guides of some £14,000 to £15,000 per annum plus utilities. This is way beyond what either or both Scouts and Guides in Liphook can afford, we have offered £1000 each for rent plus insurance and service charge and sinking fund contributions Following a notice to quit issued by the council terminating the current interim arrangements (but stating that it would not oppose the grant of a new lease), court proceedings seeking the grant of a new lease were issued last year on behalf of both Scouts and Guides. The outcome of this is that the Parish Council has filed a counter application pending final judgement or agreement. This hearing will be at Portsmouth on the 31st March 2006. We are fortunate to have a local Solicitor doing a lot of work for us without payment and also a Surveyor working on the same basis. They will be putting our case at the hearing and while we must be optimistic we must make you aware that, should the Court be in favour of the Parish Council and we are unable to pay, what it orders, this could mean that we have to leave our purpose built units (which we have fitted out with your support at considerable expense), it would be the end of Scouts and Guides in Liphook as we know them today. There are not enough venues in Liphook to hold our regular meeting let alone all the additional meetings that go on. There is nowhere we can call ‘our own’ available for every day of the year. On behalf of the children of Liphook and the 400 of them who are active Scouts and Guides every week, I urge you to write to all the Parish Councillors and ask them to look favourably on our case. PLEASE DO THIS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Finally, and I know this is short notice, there is the Annual Parish Meeting on Monday, 27th March 2006 at 7.30pm in the Millennium Hall. If you are able to attend this may be a good opportunity to ask questions of your Council. There is a Parish Council Meeting at the same venue on the same evening starting at 6.30pm. At that there is an opportunity for public questions but you will be excluded from the exempt session at the end of this meeting at which there will be a report on “Scouts & Guides”

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - allan (26th Mar 2006 - 02:33:41) Andy, Your take on this sounds admirable,but, I have heard the argument from the P.C. side. Are you sure that you are representing the "case" totally honestly? In principal, I feel for you,but, there is, I believe a fairly strong case agin you. Wish it were not so but I think you are on the back foot on this one. Sorry.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - rob (26th Mar 2006 - 10:22:59) Hmmm. Makes it sound as if the Parish Council is a vicious landlord screwing the Scouts and Guides for every penny it can get. That's not quite how it is, is it? Put another way ... the S&G have access to fabulous facilities in the Millenium Hall. The MH has to cover its costs; if it doesn't, it has to be subsidised by the people of the parish - ie you and me. So if the S&G don't pay, we do. That's fine, if we want to subsidise the S&G. But it's disingenuous to pretend that the money will be magicked from somewhere other than our own pockets. If you want to put your money in to support the S&G, write to the Parish Council and tell them so. If you don't, you might want to support the PC in the line they're taking. The fact is, the MH has been a financial and operational nonsense from the very beginning. The S&G - alone out of all those in our community - have done extremely well out of this white elephant (which as you can see from other strings on this site, isn't even useful for what it was designed for). For the rest of us it has been an unmitigated disaster. Those who were on the Council at the time the original deal was negotiated should be ashamed of themselves. Are any of them still in elected positions?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Steve Read (26th Mar 2006 - 22:44:43) .Dear Andy, I was dismayed to read your post regarding your long running battle with this local council of ours. I assume this is part of the Millenium Hall or White Elephant as known locally. This is the building that was a complete farce from the start, the one we all had to finance the shortfall through our community charge. The same building that was heralded as being built for the whole of the community. The same building that spends more time empty than being used. I find it unbelievable that a compromise can't be reached especially as it is for the local scouts & guides. Also disgusting that any excessive charge should be levied towards the group at all. Have the deeds for the building now been handed over? If they have this is probably because Sainsbury's have now sold off the Homebase division, next time you see a Homebase Store have a good look, its a larger version of the Hall. Instead of just rolling over and allowing mass developments in and around the village the council ought to get its priorities correct and start investing time and money and all their countless meetings in matters which would truly benefit this community. I would be interested to read any comments reagrding this matter from our local councillor who is always plugging on this site the odd event that finds itself in the Millenium Hall quickly followed by the wonders of the Black Fox. I wish you well Andy with this long running problem and as one parent who had a son in the scouts many years ago who really enjoyed his time there I for one am grateful for all your efforts. Whilst still on my horse it would be interesting to know how much the running costs are for the Millenium Hall on an annual basis against revenue coming in. Do the council pay rent for holding meetings there? Do the police pay a rent ( I assume on a Tuesday they must hold a coffee morning going by the amount of police cars and vans parked outside). Good luck Andy.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - LippyChick (27th Mar 2006 - 09:14:10) Hi In answer to the deficit that the local council tax payers may need to find to 'subsidise' the scouts and guides because of the financial disaster that IS the Millennium hall.... .....I do believe that the hall made a trading profit in the last year, so that arguement holds no weight whatsoever. Lips x

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Sue (27th Mar 2006 - 09:23:20) We all seem to agree on one thing; that the MH is a nightmare and has been badly managed from the start. I suspect another topical issue which would get considerable agreement is that we need to be doing more in Liphook to provide facilities for the younger people in our community. Surely the MH has a role to play in the latter. So rather than charging a rent that could well mean the closure of a facility that over 400 children and teenages of the village enjoy I suggest that we should all be supporting the Scouts and Guides and asking our Councillors to act in the best interest of the entire village by doing so.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (27th Mar 2006 - 09:45:49) The fact is that the S&G are being asked to contribute beyond the costs of running the portion of the halls that they occupy. Don't forget the halls were handed to us as an empty shell which we fitted out with the help of local people on the promise that the facility would be "affordable". The sum being requested from us £6K each from both the S&G is after costs hgave been paid, that is the S&G will continue to pay, as they always have, the full cots of running the halls. THIS FACILITY IS NOT A DRAIN ON THE PARISH RESOURCES! We accept, as we always have, that the S&G should contribute towards the furure costs of maintaining the building. That is not what this is about.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Mike Grimes (27th Mar 2006 - 10:29:04) As far as I'm aware I think the LMC made £2000 profit last year and some of this was distributed as "Community Chest" awards to the Little Cherub Nursery, Liphook United Football Club, Liphook Junior School After-school Gardening Club and the Peak Centre. This implies that the LMCMC are trying to maximise the profit from the centre in order to cross subsidise commmunity organisations that are not based at the centre. I remain to be convinced that this is what was intended when the MC was conceived. I would have thought that commercial ventures using the centre should pay a fair wack but that this should be used to subsidise community activity at the centre and ensure that best overall use is made of it. There should be no profiteering from one community organisation that uses the centre to pay for arbitary awards to others that don't (there are other mechanisms for this). This view is not confined to the Scouts and Guides argument, recently I have witnessed highly enjoyable amateur dramatics at the centre. These occations would probably been even more enjoyable if the group had been able to spend some of the income on costumes and sets, for example, rather than on "rent" for this community resource and ultimately the Junior School Gardening club. I'm not sure how it can be achieved but a lot more people and organisations would be prepared to promote community events at the centre if there was a lower risk of that event making a loss. Maybe a rent based on the number of attendees rather that a flat rent. The Scouts and Guides have enjoyed almost exclusive use of a substantial part of the centre for some time, maybe this is an area that needs looking at in any settlement. I hope this can be resolved without the imposition of a penal rent regime and I hope that agreement can be reached in the best interests of the community now without regard to old scores that require settling.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (27th Mar 2006 - 11:10:08) The S&G do make the facilities of their halls available to other groups and have always done so. The halls are regularly used by 2 separate nursery groups as well as intermittant use by others as required. The original intention was that income from these other users would be made available, less expenses, to a Community fund. The PC in their wisdom decided to go back on this arrangement at a time when agreement had been reached on a fair and equitable settlement. This has been the story all along. Just when we thought we had something we could work with the PC changed it mind and brought in some other restriction to our activities that we could not accept. You may like to know that the halls are used every night of the week by S&G so only day time and weekend use can be accommodated for other groups.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - LippyChick (27th Mar 2006 - 11:37:39) Hiya Whilst the Scout and Guide halls have been purpose built and been mostly used by these organisations, other community groups do use them as well. For example, the Chase Children's Outreach group uses the Guide hall regularly Regards Lips x

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Brian (27th Mar 2006 - 14:30:36) Allan - I know several Guiders & Scouters who have been involved in these discussions and who have been asked not to speak about the discussions with anyone else. Surely this should work both ways. Interesting that you have 'heard it from the PC side' . Seems we have one rule for one and one for another. The Halls were fitted out by the Guiders and Scouters at their own expense - they fitted the floor and put in the dividing wall. At no point has public money been used. It seems to me the council are attempting to make money out of something that was provided to them for free. S&G have always been willing to pay for expenses and maintenance and a small rent on top of that and it was with that in mind that they agreed to move in. The Scouts would heve been quite happy to stay in the old Scout hut near the library but were denied this by the council who refused to renew the lease. The S&G Halls are not a drain on the public purse but if the S&G are forced out of them then responsibility for their upkeep will fall on the PC and will heve to be paid for by Liphook council tax payers.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - rob (27th Mar 2006 - 21:31:43) Well this is a pickle, isn't it. What we all seem to be a bit short of is facts. Why doesn't the PC - or whoever it is who accounts for the MH - post some data on liphook.co.uk, so we can reach a rational view of our own? We all agree the MH is a disaster - which if nothing else just siphons off some of the income that would otherwise be available to the Bohunt Centre or the Village Hall (and could help them both update some of their facilities). It should never have been built. The fact it's turned the S&G into accommodation junkies shouldn't really be part of the equation - there are other places they could go (which would still be (lots) better than the old scout hut), which would be perfectly good enough and likely a lot cheaper. So lets have a rational debate, rather than one driven by emotional blackmail. Can we?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - A (27th Mar 2006 - 22:49:42) Yes Rob, you do seem to be (very) short of facts. Were you at this evening's meeting?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - rob (27th Mar 2006 - 23:11:04) A No, I wasn't. Don't care that much one way or the other. Lots of other interests/commitments. But still happy to hear of any facts you might have gleaned. Rob.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (28th Mar 2006 - 01:20:11) Fact is, courts are now involved,and whilst it is all very well having opinions on a running sore, it may well be best to wait for their adjudication. It is rightly an emotive issue, but, I think, best postponed until a legally binding resoloution is arrived at. The one thing I am certain of is that whatever judgements are arrived at, nobody will be a winner. I was discussing this very aspect with Mike Grimes earlier on this evening and we agreed that it would be a crying shame if our collective youngsters were to be the ultimate victims of this adult problem. Andy, If the court judgement goes against you and you need to raise sponsorship cash to meet bills to carry on, count me in, the voluntary work you do is invaluable to the community and should be recognized as such. May common sense prevail over personal egos!

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - B (28th Mar 2006 - 03:38:28) Many parishioners turned up to the Annual Parish Meeting last night hoping to hear some facts regarding the S & G halls and a justification of the Council's position, as well as being allowed a chance to air their opinions, but they were very disappointed as the Council refused to discuss the issue. Granted there is a court case to be heard in the near future, but why has the Council not kept us as parishioner informed of its policies on this over the last 7 years? Apparently all the discussions and decisions made by the Council over the past few years on this matter have been held in secret. Apart from a small number of people involved with the Uniformed organisations, no-one in the parish knew that there was any dispute or that these negotiations were taking place. Even parents of children involved in the uniformed organisations were not aware. Do we not have a right to know what the Council is doing on our behalf? Obviously as parishioners we want our Council to get good value for our money on its assets when possible, but making money 'per se' is not, or should not, be the main aim of the council, and certainly NOT at the expense of the quality of life of the young people or indeed any people in the parish. The Council (or at least some of its members) appear to believe that making money matters above all else. Of course they can't afford to lose our money, but this is not in question here, the Scouts and Guides are not using Parish money to run their meetings or to maintain the halls. In spite of fine words, providing facilities and activities for young people seems to be a low priority for Liphook PC. Providing skate parks and swings is good, and also looks good for PR purposes as these facilities are on obvious show in the village, but children can't play on these all the time, they need more constructive things to do. We need inexpensive clubs for our children to be part of which will help them develop their skills while having fun and allow them to fulfil their potential. The S & G organisations provide opportunities for all our children at a reasonable cost. Members don't need to be sporty or musical or good at acting or dancing, as they do for many clubs; any child of any ability can join. (Rob, mentioning children or young people is not intended as emotional blackmail, you cannot debate this issue rationally without mentioning them.) As a village, Liphook is extremely lucky to have excellent Guide and Scout Groups which are providing high quality 'youth services' AND it's all run by unpaid but hard-working and well trained volunteers. Our council should be grateful to the Unifomed Groups for the service they provide our young people. The Council are not asked or expected to assist with funding the S & G groups' activities, but the least they should do is help facilitate the provision of a safe and well designed place to meet. (By the way, anyone who has a child in one of the uniformed groups can see that there's obviously no where near enough other venues in the village for all the groups to meet. Both the S & G halls are used every night of the week, often twice a night, (for example Brownies following after Rainbows, and then a Leaders meeting). I don't know the exact figures, but I guess there are at least 18 different groups to be accomodated per week. In many other villages and towns, Councils have to pay large sums to youth workers to provide a service that can't even begin to compete with the wide range of activities that Scouting and Guiding offers. If we want our children to become resonsible and good citizens, in my opinion and that of many others, we couldn't ask for a better programme than that provided by the uniformed groups. All these benefits to our children and citizens of the future can't be measured in purely financial terms. The council have only looked at one side of the equation, the financial side. If the Council wins their case, I suspect that the fees the parents of Scout and Guide groups are asked to pay would have to be raised beyond what the average family can afford, so membership would be just for the rich, (and there aren't sufficient rich families around to make the meetings viable even if the leaders were prepared to run them on that basis, which I suspect most of them would not). Then the Scouts and Guides would have no option but to leave the Halls which were designed for them, and the Council would be left with two true white elephants. (The halls are not white elephants at the moment, they are greatly appreciated and well used. During the school holidays and half terms they are hired out to Brownies and Cubs from other areas for their Pack holidays). I doubt very much, in the absence of the S & Gs, that the Council could find a youth club or children's organisation commercail or otherwise, to utilise both halls to their maximum capacity and even if it could, no group would be able to afford to pay the council and maintain the buildings at the level the Council expect. (I understand that the halls were built by Sainsburys with a legal proviso that they must be used for youth activities, so the Council can't turn them into industrial units or shops or whatever, although I'm sure they would love to as that would make money). I feel the Scouts and Guides have been very restrained in waiting this long to 'go public'. Now we want to hear from the Council how they justify their position....why won't they tell us, what have they to hide?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Finchie (28th Mar 2006 - 09:08:52) Hi - Can anyone give a brief update on yesterday's meeting ? Forget about all the history/facts etc. Let's not get diverted. How can anyone justify charging the Scouts and Guides £6,000 each and hiking fees up so much. How very bizarre. Why do you NOT want those organisations using the facilities ? Finchie

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Brian (28th Mar 2006 - 16:00:19) Lots of places S&G could go ? Where they could store all their equipment. Where they could hold ad-hoc meetings outside of normal unit meetings ? Where they could construct the carnival float ? Name some.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (28th Mar 2006 - 17:58:21) come on the rest of the people in liphook expected to pay for 400 of you. you have a lovley building and you want to pay sod all for it .on that basis can you find me a three bedroom house to rent i have about £50 per month. pay up a proper rent or leave

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Concerned Tax Payer (28th Mar 2006 - 22:19:29) £6000 x 2 = £12000 divided by 400 scouts & guides = £30 per annum divided by 52 weeks = 60 pence a week from each scout and guide. What's all the fuss about?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - T (29th Mar 2006 - 00:08:34) Concerned Tax Payer - As it is only 60p a week, you obviously will not mind paying it yourself, if the Scouts and Guides can't afford £12000 and the halls are left empty. It may be 60p a week for the rent, but from what I understand there is maintenance and insurance on top of this £12k, without the normal running expenses of S&G's. Plus, we arent talking about 60p a week per child, because I highly doubt the PC would accept weekly payments of 60p per child, but rather would expect a lump sum.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - B (29th Mar 2006 - 03:06:57) To " Concerned tax payer" You have obviously never done any voluntary work with young people's clubs, otherwise you would understand that your sums look good on paper, but are meaningless in practice. (Not that it matters, as it's all academic, but you based your calculation on 52 weeks when there are usually only about 39 weeks in a term, so your figures are inaccurate.) Rent to the Council is just one of many financial demands to be met before Group Leaders can even begin to see if they have enough to buy resources for the children's activities. For example mandatory per capita insurance of the members while they are doing Scouting and Guiding activities is very expensive in these litigious days, and London HQ take a proportion of each child's fee for their administration and so on. It is only because Leaders are very resourceful and good at organising fundraising events that they can run exciting programmes on a shoestring. I suggest that you volunteer to help with the Brownies or Cubs (you have to be checked by the Criminal Record Bureau first, but otherwise no qualifications are required and full training will be provided. Then once you are aware of what is involved in organising and financing these organisations, you will see that your statement was naive in the extreme. Andrew Ellis, with respect, it would be a good idea to get your facts right before you air your opinions. The local tax payers are NOT paying for 400 children; THE SCOUTS AND GUIDES ARE SELF-FINANCING. Yes the Scouts and Guides are lucky to have a nice hall and they appreciate it, (although it does have it's faults), but don't our young people deserve good facilities? Why can't you be glad for them.....perhaps you would prefer to see the children meet in a dirty and dilapidated old hut which is falling down and has no plumbing? I'm sure you realise the ridiculousness of drawing a parallel between you as one private individual being given a three bedroom house for 'sod all' and the youth of Liphook paying as much as they can afford to have a place to meet. But perhaps you don't. You suggest the Scouts and Guides should leave the halls if they cannot pay the rent, but this begs a crucial question: what is your suggestion for how the halls would be financed when their current occupants have gone? Please someone answer this as the only obvious answer I can see is that the LOCAL TAX PAYERS WOULD PAY, but perhaps I am missing something. If I am, I would really like to know what it is......it may take away the feeling that those wanting the Scouts and Guides to leave the halls have a hidden agenda of their own.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - j (29th Mar 2006 - 10:08:51) Dear concerned tax payer Grow up - the Guides and Scout movement was started as a charity organisation to help fund the underpriviliged and believe it or not we do have underpriviliged children here in affluent Liphook. Not all parents can afford camp,uniform and subs - I suggest that as your so 'concerned ' why not go and do some voluntary work with the movement. Or donate some money to Andrew Ellis.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (29th Mar 2006 - 10:18:24) So Andrew Ellis and concerned Tax payer disagree, They are entitled to their opinion but I would suggest they could perhaps take the time to establish the facts. Those of us who have been dealing with this issue for 6 years without recourse to public opinion will know that the situation is not as straightforward as it may seem to those not involved. To the rest of the community who have voiced their support to our cause I and the other S&G leaders would like to offer our thanks. Andy

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - LippyChick (29th Mar 2006 - 10:26:52) Allan Thank you, words of wisdom as ever. There is little that any of us can do until the court case on Friday. However your offer of sponsorship is gracious and appreciated. I hope sincerely that the Scouts and Guides do not have to take you up on it, but your offer shows what community spirit is all about. Regards Lips x

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 10:38:29) Well Mr Scout Leader. Could you answer these very simple questions please. How much money do you recieve from rental of your rooms? Where did the money come from to buy your replacement bus? If you can afford this bus and the money has come from your room rental, i suggest you have your priorities wrong. I would like a replacement car, but i have to pay my rent first. If the money to purchase the bus was from another source, again where is the rental money, if the bus was given as a gift did you sell your old bus and recieve any money for it, and if so where is it?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 10:40:27) sorry Mr Woodage i was a parish council member at the time you entered the new hall

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 10:46:48) ta any money recieved with thanks .

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (29th Mar 2006 - 10:59:05) The S& G finances are transparent, in that as a Charitable organisation we make our finances available to both the local community and the charity commissioners upon request and at our annual AGM also a copy is sent to the PC each year. Our bus was financed by donations from many local and national organisations who believe the work we do is worthy of their support. the previous bus was similarly financed and its sale proceeds went towards the purchase of the replacement. It is disingenuous to suggest that the S&G are in anyway decieving the community in this issue. Income from letting the halls does not directly benefit the S&G as the accounts for the halls are entirely separate and are used solely for paying utilities, insurance, cleaning etc. Again the accounts are public records and are available to anyone who asks or attends the AGM.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 11:02:44) Well b you seem to have your knickers in a twist .I was one of the first on the council to move the youth club and skate park along its way .There were many people up in arms about both . I helped many of the young people to do their presentation to the public to help them get the skate park . This was what came out top of the youths wish list . It might not be what many of us ADULTS wanted for them but what do we know. Now there is a space on the council why dont you any anyone else who have not tried give it ago , see how much free time you have to give and how you can sort out these simple problems

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - T (29th Mar 2006 - 11:57:18) Well done Andrew for helping the youth with the skate park and the youth club. However, you say it was top of their wish list, of course it would be as they didnt exist, whereas the Scouts and Guides already existed and have so for nearly 100years in Liphook. Anything that benefits the youth is great for our community, as they are the future of our community. However, personally I do not think a skate park benefit's a 5 year old, but Scouts and Guides do. Any child from the age of 5 is welcome. It doesnt matter whether they are sporty, artisit, dramatic, shy, loud, rich, poor, they may have a disability or illness, every child is welcome.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 12:31:35) Mr Woodage, the question was how much do the s&g get from the rent from your part of the hall . If your accounts are so transparent please give the amount on this site.I also believe the parish council spent somthing like£168,000 on the hall and the s&g recieved matched funding from the council on money your s&g groups spent "doing up" the hall.Yes you run a good cause but im afraid you hape to pay the same as the rest of us.Can you also show a copy of the notice to Quit you recieved from the council

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (29th Mar 2006 - 12:51:13) Firstly the S&G do NOT and have NOT received any money or matched funding for completing the work on the halls (This was another promise made by the PC in 1999 that was never followed through) Secondly although I do not have the actual figures to hand at this moment I can tell you that contrary to some opinions the S&G do actually pay £2100 each to the Hall fund each year. This plus the income from lettings is held in a separate account managed by the S&G hall committee and is used to pay the costs of running the halls so they do not become a burden on the council tax payers of the parish. There is a small surplus in the accounts and once the issue of the lease terms is resolved that money will be used to pay whatever is agreed. This is providing it is affordable. Mr Ellis I am taking exception to your tone which suggests that something underhand is going on and you should really get your facts straight before you let loose you particular predjuces.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 12:53:15) T . When the children grow up as they will the skate park will be there for them ,if the young people of Liphook want other things let them go to the council with a plan and it will be looked at . That is what happened before and after much hard work by the youths they got what THEY wanted at that time. Many of them did not want to be scouts or belong to a group that was organised, sad , but thats life . Many people of this village should go and try to be on the parish council and then would be able to judge and be judged on the things they do not on just feelings from the heart.The youth of this village have moved with the times and want a great deal more than scouts and guides again that is a shame but it is a fact. Wish i knew what was the answer but i dont .It is no good saying it was good enough for us because we cant live in the past as i wish we could .

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 13:16:09) Dont think i suggested anything underhand think you might not explain all the facts . And you still have not said how much you recieve in rent , good to see you pay into all hall fund as you should.Think i will go to council offices in petersfield and ask for coppies of accounts to see how much was paid to the hall and how much was paid to S & G because you got something some how

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (29th Mar 2006 - 13:34:34) Mr Ellis, The income from lettings for 2004-5 were £4280 + £4200 from S&G making a total income of £8480 set against costs of £6317. As I stated there is a surplus which is being held pending the outcome of the Lease "negotiations?" I expect the lettings income for this year will be similar although the accounts will not be closed until Friday. The notice to quit was sent to the S&G solicitor by the PC solicitor and was a legal process to cease the current arrangements and set the terms for a formal lease.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (29th Mar 2006 - 13:46:43) The S& G have NEVER received any funding from the PC in relation to the halls. You may ask at the parish office and will be told the same. The operating "profit" of the entire MC run by the PC was somewhere around £2000 so the result from our small portion of the centre was equivalent and it has always been our stated position that any operating surplus from the halls would be made available to the PC for community purposes. We have been "prevented" from making some of this information public by the PC who have requested that these negotiations were not published. The final straw last week when the PC refused our last ditch effort to talk about this before the Court hearing resulted in us reluctantly "going public"

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 14:11:56) I think you do not want "your" hall let out and do not do as much as you could to increase your rent income. A few extra hours a week would give you a good deal of money and this rent issue could be solved. Its NOT your building alone let it out more

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (29th Mar 2006 - 14:24:18) The S&G have never prevented any user letting our halls and the opportunity to let them out is published in the same way as for other parts of the MC. The fact is the S&G use the halls every week night, during term times, and the business beyond what we already have is just not there. You obviously have a very entrenched position Mr Ellis and I'm sure nothing I say will change your mind. I have responded to all your points on this string with openess and honesty and I think the least you could do is accept that many of the points you have expressed have been rebuffed and you have been shown to be WRONG.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 14:37:53) we will see

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - T (29th Mar 2006 - 16:05:39) Andrew, further to your note, I know not ALL the youth in the community want to be members of the Scouts and Guides, but there is a large proportion wanting Scouts and Guides. The Scouts and Guides are obviously here to stay, no matter what hall they are in. I am not living in the past, its just they are as much of what is needed in this day and age as a skate park is. As far as I am aware the Scouts and Guides have more members now than ever before. The term "youth" should not separate the Scouts and Guides from other members of the youth of liphook. Just because they are Scouts and Guides should not mean they have any less rights in the parish than the rest of children their age, many of them will have other interests in other youth activities within the village. You say the youth should go to the Parish Council and ask for what they want. How do they go about this? How do they know what is on offer? When I turned 18 and could vote, I only knew who a few of the councillors were. Now a couple of years later, I know of them, but I still have not met them. How do the youth know who they need to speak to? Maybe this whole situation shows a need for change within the parish council to make them more approachable and recognisable. I am sure that any youth group within the village would welcome the councillors to visit and to discuss youth issues with them. I know the council have made effort in the past by for example going into Bohunt, but does this really capture the attention of Liphook youth, when half the class doesn't even live in the parish. Maybe the Parish Council need more help, but people need to know more about them to help. I am not necessarily siding with the Scouts and Guide, but I do side with the youth of this village. From my point of view as a parishioner the Scouts and Guides need a base, they can not function properly without a hall, due to the activities that they do. This is their specific youth need and want. They are not saying they are not willing to pay for it, they are not saying give us these halls for free. They already have contributed and will continue to contribute. They are saying they simply can not afford the cost of £12000. They do a lot to raise money for equipment, activities and resources; they sponsor children for meetings, activities and camps. They already have to raise money for these kinds of things, so how can they afford this huge rent as well? I highly doubt groups such as the Carnival Committee and Lidba would be happy for the Scouts and Guides to use the money they give to be used on rent to the Parish Council, not that they would ever do this, but it is a point that needs to be made. They will continue to need equipment and resources. How will they cover all their costs? I have attended Guide Coffee mornings and events they have organised; I have been to the Scout Christmas fayre and used the Scout Post at Christmas. The money raised has gone back into groups for equipment activities, resources for the children and this is what they should be for, not for raising rent. With regards to the skate park, as you stated the youth worked hard to get their skate park. How much did it cost them individually? How much did the equipment cost them individually? How much are they paying now individually towards the maintenance each year? Maybe this is the reason that the Parish Council want to set the rent at £12000 for the Scouts and Guides, so the Parish Council have the funds to pay for these other youth activities. As I said youth groups should not be separated, so why take money from one to pay for another. If the £12000 is not going to be used on the youth, what is it going to be used on? As far as I can see this would be pure profit for the council, and I think it is important that the parish knows what the council intend to do with this money, if the Scouts and Guides had to pay it. Also, I want to know what would happen to the halls, if the Scouts and Guides could not afford to pay for the halls and they moved out. What would happen to all their equipment? Before the Scouts and Guides moved into the halls, I know particularly in relation to the Guides side all the equipment was stored in garages, shed and lofts. Maybe if they move out of the halls and this has to happen again, the leaders could charge the Parish Council rent for storage of youth equipment? I do not know all the facts and can only judge on what I have seen. This is now in the hands of the courts and all we can do now is wait for the decision to made and hopefully both sides can move forward soon and there be happier times for the community.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - ratbag (29th Mar 2006 - 16:16:31) As a Mum who has a son at Beavers and a daughter at Brownies, I am extremely saddened at the situation the S& Gs find themselves in. I realise that Mr Ellis has an opinion on the benefits of children attending these groups but does he not understand that not every child is remotely interested in skateboarding! (Which incidentally is soooo yesterday!). Of course the are major budgetary implications of peppercorn rents, but this is an investment in our kids futures too. This site is always debating the unsavoury youth who vandalise our village, and I am not suggesting that being a brownie or cub will prevent this, but surely instilling a sense of belonging and citizenship is what this is all about. It is not a case of providing for a minority, it's about encouraging our youth to become responsible citizens, and although this may not touch your life now.... who is going to be supporting you in your old age?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - M King (29th Mar 2006 - 16:20:27) I do not propose to enter the debates that are going on at the present time owing to the hearing on Friday but there have been several points made that are not accurate, particularly from Mr Ellis who as an ex-Councillor should have better knowledge of the history of these halls. 1. The halls were offered to the S&G and accepted. They did not ask for help in obtaining HQs. 2. Match funding was offered to help with the expense of fitting out the halls, to a limit of £3500. Having paid the Millennium Hall Trustees their match funding, the council changed the rules and stopped match funding any cause including the S & G halls. No fund have been received from the Parish 3. There appears to be an allusion that the Parish has in some way paid ratepayer’s money towards the S&Gs use/occupation of the halls. The ratepayers through the council have paid nothing. The halls are self-supporting. The rent asked by the PC will, I believe go into the Community Chest to aid other causes in the Parish. We have no objection to that only to the sums demanded. 4. The income from lettings so far this year is £4273.25. Our expenses for the year so far are £8496.67 of which £2592 was for the cleaner (necessary when letting) and £2527.60 to the PC for two years of insurance. 5. The Scouts have had a bus for many years. The first was vandalised while parked at the sorting office, as Mr Ellis should remember from his time as a Postman. The second, bought with the insurance and donations from industry, became difficult to find drivers for and has been sold. Money from the sale and donations from industry and charities has paid for the new, second-hand bus. 6. It has been said that the PC pay the rates on the S&G Halls. No rates are due as we are charities and therefore exempt. I hope this may clear up some of the misunderstands and I will just end by saying the S&G are extremely grateful to have these facilities and have done everything that was asked of them before they moved into the halls except pay sums of rent and maintenance charges which were only put on them after they had fitted out the halls. We cannot commit our membership to expenses we cannot afford. We have offer what we can afford and that includes money that would have to come from increasing subscriptions.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 17:13:24) T. Youth is a term ment for all, scouts, guides or not .when i was a council member members and parents arranged many meetings with the young boys and girls , after they had approached us to get more things for them to do . I can only point you in that same direction , if you know a group of youths that want something get them to go to the parish office and i am sure the staff there will be only to glad to help and point them in the right direction. As far as cost goes it was many £1000s of pounds and i cant give the right amount as i cant rember .It will be on file . I do know the kids raised money that went to the cost and the council had money put aside.Again cant remember the details but they too will be on file.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 17:24:05) .ratbag.Firstly i dont have an opinion on beining a S or G but i know they do a good job , that is not my point.Yes skateboarding may have been a thing of the past but i do believe it was put in as a cycle park too.I dont think how ever much you give to the youth or how ever many different clubs there are , it will never be enough.There will always be some who spoil it for the many who behave but short of national service i cant think of an answer.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 17:24:22) .ratbag.Firstly i dont have an opinion on beining a S or G but i know they do a good job , that is not my point.Yes skateboarding may have been a thing of the past but i do believe it was put in as a cycle park too.I dont think how ever much you give to the youth or how ever many different clubs there are , it will never be enough.There will always be some who spoil it for the many who behave but short of national service i cant think of an answer.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 17:40:53) Mr King as you will be aware much of the meetings that delt with the scouts and guides and money matters were at exempt meetings and as such even now i am not allowed to give amounts but the council did pay money to the hall for which you have seen the results of . what might be a fair rent and what you can afford will be two different things, whilst i have no idear how you run your clubs , i do think that the £20 the boys and girls have to pay is very cheap and i would guess a small rise in this yearly fee would be of no hardship to most of the parents and would give you more funds not only to help with the rent but also to offer more things for your clubs to be able to offer.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - LippyChick (29th Mar 2006 - 18:11:32) Mr Ellis The £20 you quote as an annual subscription to Guides or Scouts is in fact incorrect. The subs are £25 a term. Some groups for younger members (such as Rainbow Guides) only occupy the hall for 10 hours for each term. I hope that clarifies the subscriptions that members are asked to pay. Lips x

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - B (29th Mar 2006 - 18:20:26) Mr Ellis, I think Andy Woodage has done a very good job trying to enlighten you regarding the facts on which you had previously been misinformned, but there is one other point you made on which your knowledge is way out of date. I think the following is relevant to this discussion, as both sides need to understand each other better if they are eventually to come to some agreement. You said (I quote): "........The youth of this village have moved with the times and want a great deal more than scouts and guides again that is a shame but it is a fact. Wish i knew what was the answer but i dont .It is no good saying it was good enough for us because we cant live in the past as i wish we could. ......." Sorry but NO, it is not a fact. Firstly, Scouts and Guides have very much moved with the times, so much so that both groups are more popular now than ever before, both in Liphook and nationally. Both movements have had new programmes geared towards modern young peoples' interests. Sadly public perceptions are very hard to change and a few still assume it's all middle class gin gan goolie and reef knots, but if you care to visit the following sites www.girlguiding.org.uk/ or www.scouts.org.uk/ you will see that these are very modern organisations. Ask the 21,000 Guides and Rangers who managed to get tickets for this years Big Gig held at the NEC and watched pop acts like Liberty X etc, whether guiding is out of date. Ask the Scouts who go canoeing and caving in France or take part in International camps in exotic locations if Scouting is out of date. Liphook's Guide camp this year will be attended by 39 girls and 11 adults, and the Scout camps are always equally popular. (Leaders are hoping there will be a hall available to dry the tents in when the camps finish!) Admittedly Scouting and Guiding isn't for all children, but the range of ativities is very broad and very few don't fit in. You mentioned that some children don't want organised activities and you are right, (I guess you are thinking mostly of young teenagers) but ask some of the boys who use the skate park and the chances are you will find many of them were Beavers or Cubs at one time and had a great time. Nowadays the emphasis in Scouting and Guiding is on members choosing their own activities and the leaders are there to facilitate their choices. For example, Guides work together in small teams to gain "Go for Its". They choose and plan their activities themselves in subjects as diverse as Chocolate, Football and Showtime. The (plastic) award certificate is credit card style. Lots of fun and lots of skills and self esteem gained. Numbers of both Scouts and Guides have been growing every year for several years. There are currently 50,000 girls on waiting lists wanting to join GirlguidingUk in Britain. Liphook Scouts have more members than all other scouting groups in Hampshire. Liphook Guiding is lucky to have sufficient adult help at present to run enough Units so that although there are waiting lists for all sections, children do not usually have to remain on them for too long. Far from being in decline, Scouts and Guides are a dynamic and vibrant movement in tune with the times. It will be such a shame if future generations of children in Liphook don't have the opportunity to experience all that Scouting and Guiding offers due to lack of a home.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - ratbag (29th Mar 2006 - 18:29:39) Mr Ellis. I am a little confused that you don't appear to have understood me. I was suggesting that the leisure needs of children in our area need support from us all. While it was indeed admirable that you were involved in the Skate/cycle park, the needs of each generation changes. We need to be encouraging children to participate in group activities that are not purely fashionable, and often end up not being used for their intended purpose. The S & G hall has been used for years for it's intended purpose and looked after by the groups using it. Can we say that for other areas? My six year old could no more petition the PC for his choice of activity that fly to the moon. We, as responsible adults, must be prepared to provide them with safe areas to develop those communication and reasoning skills that the users of this site take for granted.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 20:11:31) B The scouts and guides may many modern things but im sorry but many of todays youth and young people want more whatever could be provided would not be enough , im sure scouts do many interesting things but the fact that they are well run and organised puts many young people off. This how ever is getting off my point which is that a fair rent should be paid

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (29th Mar 2006 - 20:19:10) Ratbag No you are right you son could not go to the council but im sure you and many other mums could and start the ball rolling if you feel this village is lacking in something. I also think the liphook football has very many members ranging from kids your childrens age to adults . I think this village needs more sports clubs and youth club style places .

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - T (29th Mar 2006 - 20:56:54) Andrew, The need for more sports clubs and youth clubs is getting off your point again of a fair rent. But, as you left your point once again, I would to point out. We already have plenty sport clubs, a great football club, cricket, tennis, dance groups, archery club, baton twirlers, you name it Liphook pretty much as it, as far as sports go. Maybe more youth clubs are needed, but if it is going to cost them £6000 a year to rent 1 hall without any other running costs, who is going to do it?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - rob (29th Mar 2006 - 23:14:20) So the facts appear to be .... Rental income £8500 (M King, A Woodage); accommodation costs £4273 (King), £6317 (Woodage); so accommodation surplus £2327 (King), £2183 (Woodage). So far so good. Subscriptions: £25 a term (Lippychick) from 400 members, equals £75 x 400 a year, equals £30,000. Costs: probably very large (Liberty X don't come cheap, I suppose). But still ..... Not much info from the Parish Council side. But clear implication from the S&G side that £16,000 rent has nothing to do with the opportunity cost of the space (everyone says the PC will have to pay it anyway, even if the S&G move out) and something to do with cross-subsidising youth activities elsewhere. The Judge, I suppose, will be an unbiassed searcher after truth like a number of us. We watch with interest. R

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - David (30th Mar 2006 - 00:16:22) Well Andy B and Mike, I imagine your conversations on this forum with Mr Ellis remind you very much of the discussion had with the PC over the past years!!

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - P (30th Mar 2006 - 01:11:30) I think you will find that Mr Woodage's figures are from 2004-2005 financial year, and Mr King's are 2005-2006, so it is not a discrepancy. The fact of the matter is, what I can gather, the Scouts and Guides, if you were to look at their accounts, do not have a spare £12000+ lying about in their funds with which to pay rent. And they would not have moved into the premises had they known they would be expected to pay such a figure.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (30th Mar 2006 - 02:03:04) Lippychick, Thank you for reply which was measured and to a point. Tell me, have all of the above gone nuts and lost their sense of perspective. We are discussing here a local issue which has a potential dramatic outcome for the most important members of our community ; our youngsters. Their seniors are are arguing like 2 rats in a sack over something which they should have been able to reach a compromise on eons ago. As I see it, the rent issue is secondary because, to preserve the integrity of both parties, were the representative of Liphook scouts, guides, etc. to accept that the parish councilors have a legal responsibility not to operate at a deficit at pain of legal action were they to do so,go with a realistic rent, and then apply for grants back to enable ,the costs to be met. Andy Woodage, Mike King, your commitment, contribution and goodwill free of charge to the S&G is recognised by all, where will you be if the court rules against you, with associated costs and you are effectively skewered. You may not like it, but the time has come to make your accommodation with the elected officers of your council responsible before you get into court 'cos then there ain't no going back and could be personally disastrous financially. Step back now whilst you may.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - RT (30th Mar 2006 - 07:54:16) Mr Ellis, I see from the site that you helped set up the skate park and youth club. I know where the skate park is but can you tell me where the youth club meets?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy Woodage (30th Mar 2006 - 09:19:28) Allan, Just a few points following your comments earlier: The S&G did not start the court procedings and only late last week requested a without predjudice meeting with representatives of the PC to avoid the need for the Court hearing. This offer was refused by the PC. The PC does as they well know have discretionary powers to set below market rate rents for charitable community organisations. The S&G are willing to pay what we can afford and the costs of the halls will be fully met before any payment is made to the PC so it will not be operating at a loss. many of the Current PC members are in fact Not Elected members as the last elections were not held and the current councillors were nodded through to the new council. There has not been a proper election of Councillors in Liphook since 1999.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - N (30th Mar 2006 - 09:55:51) Hi, first of all just to let you know libertry x dont come cheap and thats why any of the guides that went to the big gig had to pay for their tickets (so thats a cost on top of subs just so we're clear) other activites such as camp or the canival also cost extra and the money litteraly only covers the costs, for example the money the parents pay for carnival goes straight to fabric for costumes, wood, paint etc we dont ask for money to teach prize winning routines (as most others do) last year the girls actually took part in a sponsored danceathon to help keep the costs down an activity which involved them getting some exercise and learning that they could get the benifits of doing something for themsleves. we hope to do this again this year thats if we have a hall to dance in of course. i also take exception to any of you who seem to think that guides and scouts is out of date or behind the times i feel that is a very narrow minded way to see a group of young people who are involved in something that they totally and utterly enjoy and gives them some actual skills they can go on to use in the future something the 'youth' will not learn from sainsburys car park.........oops sorry the skate park!!!!! N.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Eneida (30th Mar 2006 - 16:35:12) I can't really comment on the rights or wrongs of this argument since I don't know the full story. But could someone in the know tell me if we, the Council Tax payers of Liphook, are going have to foot the legal bill for the PC taking this court action? I'm interested to know, since a lot of us don't agree with it and weren't even aware it was going on until the matter appeared on this website. Eneida

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Finchie (30th Mar 2006 - 21:25:01) Good Luck tomorrow S&G. I have everything crossed for you. I am sure that common sense will prevail. And just to get you thro' the day ... What is the difference between the S&G organisation and the PC. One is focused on the needs of the local community and provides facilities for the youth. The other is ... ... you've guessed it - the Parish Council. I have huge admiration for Simon and his resignation on this point of principle, which speaks volumes. I am sure there will be others ... Cheers, Finchie

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Guide Parent (30th Mar 2006 - 22:29:55) Phew! What a lot of passion from all of you. How sad that a compromise could not have been reached and that the time and energy that this has taken been otherwise channelled in to benefitting not only the young people of the area but the whole community. Whatever the outcome tomorrow I should like to thank each and every volunteer who has given up their time so generously over the past five years to contributing to the personal, practical and social skills of my child. Your movement has offered so many opportunities which would not have been gained through school or any other single organisation and each and everyone of you has my deepest respect for the dedication committment and genuine enthusiasm you have for those in your charge. I sincerely hope that the situation can be resolved amicably and quickly and will eanable Scouts, Guides, Brownies etc to all stay together as a family unit.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Mike Grimes (31st Mar 2006 - 00:39:51) Mr F. Whilst I share your admiration for Mr Coyte's resignation on this point of principle I wonder whether his voice might be better heard on the Council rather than off it. You suspect that there may be others - I hope not for the same reason. Eneida and Allan are absolutely right to be concerned about who, exactly, can win this court case. In financial terms there are always two losers and one winner in these situations and I suspect the losers are going to be :- 1) Us as residents of the Parish and 2) Us as parents of the S & G because I cannot see where else the money to pay the legal establishment is coming from. A moral victory may be scored tomorrow, but who will pay for it? And we probably cannot afford an appeal!

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (31st Mar 2006 - 01:20:49) Andy Woodage, Either the report on the front page of The Herald contains an entirely false representation of the statement Dr. Tough made to the meeting on Monday night or you have lied to me in your last post . You said that the P.C. instigated legal proceedings against you; Dr.Tough said in his statement that the P.C. were defending a petition in court brought by the S. & G. You cannot both be telling the truth. If you have been embelishing facts/ history of your dispute with the P.C., are you oblivious to the fact that that will be presented in court at some stage?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Mike Grimes (31st Mar 2006 - 01:24:31) This issue has been going on, unresolved, for some six years but the arguments have, hitherto, been restricted to the main protagonists. Since this thread was started I feel that the, mostly, open debate has teased out a lot of the ingrained assumptions that has clouded this issue. It is a pity that the PC has had to take the sub-judicial stance to not comment because I have the sneakiest of suspicions that a good healthy debate on this site might have resolved this issue without recourse to the courts. Wishful thinking perhaps but, as Eneida said, few of the community knew there was a problem until recently, but now there has been a public debate 'they' now know how we feel. Incidentally, this must have been the fastest growing thread of all time - even if it has not yet (quite) reached the dizzy heights of the book club thread, it will (3 to go) and that took 5 months.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Concerned parent (1st Apr 2006 - 14:01:33) I am, like many others I'm sure, very interested to know the outcome of the court hearing. As a parent of a Cub and a Guide I very much hope that the S&G organisation has been successful in securing a future for our children in the Scout/Guide movement. Can anyone enlighten us all as to what happened on Friday?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (2nd Apr 2006 - 21:13:09) I have heard, unofficially, that the court has made an interim ruling. I am surprised that Mr. Woodage, or indeed Mr King have not brought you up to date. Given the fact that they used this web site to try to incite opinion in their favour, you would have thought that they would, as a matter of courtesy, inform you all of the outcome (temporary as it may be) even if it did not go as they wished. The P.C. kept a dignified silence on this even though they were being criticised by everybody and their mother in the local press/this web site et al. They were correct.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (3rd Apr 2006 - 20:04:34) concerned parent . I wish i could give you an answer but am unable to . I hope all is sorted so there are no winners but i suspect the court will rule for the council and despite my concerns over rent payments i hope S&G have a place to work from and a rent is paid that is deamed fair by the court

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Mike Grimes (4th Apr 2006 - 00:20:41) I, like everyone else, am very interested in the outcome of this, but the court ruling is only part of it. Both parties have to agree, else the ruling is worthless in the long term and the dispute goes on. I think most of the Parish (many of which are also S&G Parents) would hope that the parties will now sit down and arrive at an agreed settlement and if they can't agree, I think we ought to help them. If you can't agree, why not ask us rather than some expensive guys in wigs in Portsmouth?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (4th Apr 2006 - 01:45:05) Andrew Ellis, This, if it were not so important,is in danger of becoming boring. The fact is that an adjudication has been made against the S&G in a court of law. Andy Woodage & Mike King were ruled against for more than one reason. Apparently, the assertations they had made on this web site were presented to the judge in print form . I refer you to a not too far back post advising them not to disseminate. Deaf ears, I fear. I am also drawn to the fact that full accounts for lettings activities have not been registered with the P.C. as should be, the suspicion being that if, no full disclosure of accounts, possibly, something to hide. Andrew, you were very aggressive on matters financial on earlier posts, do you know something the rest of ought to know?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (4th Apr 2006 - 01:52:12) By the way, I am reliably informed that e-mails have been flying around instructing S&G types to not post on this site any more. Come on, call me a liar!!!!!

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - liz (4th Apr 2006 - 08:26:33) When were the parish council members voted in and when will be the next time we can vote for parish council members?

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Freddie Dawkijs (4th Apr 2006 - 22:17:30) Dear All - As one of the 12 Councillors, I've watched this message thread and kept quiet. I am posting below the official Press Release which went out yesterday from the Parish Council. No doubt the Herald, The Messenger et al will all be covering the Court case and it's result, when they publish later this week. I can't get into conversations about this, much as I would like to, so please don't start sending me messages. All the Councillors have had dozens of letters about the matter and we are endeavouring to answer all of them as quickly as we can. The Press Release reads: Bramshott & Liphook Parish Council attended a court hearing at Portsmouth County Court on Friday 31 March 2006 as the defendants in a case brought against them by Liphook Scouts and Guides last December. The case concerns the proposed lease agreements offered by the Council to the Scouts and Guides and their terms. The Council were hoping that an interim rent would be set at the hearing because they had not received any rent from the Scouts and Guides since they first occupied the building seven years ago. At the hearing, Deputy District Judge Collins set the "interim" rent as £2,000 for each of the Scouts and Guides, and awarded reserved costs to the Parish Council. The Scouts and Guides are regular users of the buildings, and the Council would wish to continue to promote this use but not to the detriment of the local community. The Council wish to make it clear that at no time have they asked either the Scouts of the Guides to quit the building. The proceedings continue, and will be determined in court should an amicable settlement not be reached between the parties. The Council would hope to resolve the matter through a negotiated settlement. The Council will be making no further comment, and will be working toweards trying to find a reasonable solution with the help of the Scouts and Guides. So, that's where we are. Hope this helps to at least get everyone up to date. Freddie Dawkins

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (5th Apr 2006 - 00:09:53) You won't believe this: Andy Woodage contacted Mike Grimes by telephone last w/end and, amongst other things asked if the poster on this site known as ALLAN was the mouthpiece of the p.c. in general and Freddie Dawkins in particular. How dare he. Iam totally independent of thought and deed. I asked him on this very website after his initial post; are you sure you are being totally honest about what you are saying, he continued to post a misleading version of events to garner public support for his position. Subsequent events have revealed that he and his fellow protagonist are economical with the truth to a degree that would make Tony Bliar proud. I have a real problem now with trusting these individuals as scout leaders. The major problem is that not too many people put themselves forward as volunteers and we ,as parents in the community will have to put up with the status quo for lack of alternative

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Eneida (5th Apr 2006 - 09:12:21) I've read the PC statement posted by Freddie. I don't know about anybody else, but what I really don't understand is the phrase "the Council would wish to continue to promote this use but not to the detriment of the local community". I know Freddie isn't allowed to answer questions, but could someone explain how the S&G using these halls, which I understand were built for their use, be detrimental to the rest of us?? I suppose what I really want to know is...was the Millennium Hall built and given to the people of Liphook for their use or was it meant to make a profit for the PC? This question isn't meant to be offensive to anyone on the Parish Council, I would just like to know the answer as it might explain why this problem has arisen. Eneida

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Finchie (5th Apr 2006 - 18:10:43) Mmmm, Interesting ! I had not realised that not a bean had been paid for rent in 7 years - must have missed that important fact :-) I kind of assumed that when the increase was from £1,000 to £6,000 that £1,000 was actually paid annually !!! No wonder some people are irate. I agree with MikeG that this can (must) be resolved without involvement with courts. IMHO, I think you should swap all the personalities involved in the "negotiation", put in some fresh faces to move forward, since it appears to have got very personal and emotions/stubborness on both sides won't get any further. Cheers, Finchie

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (5th Apr 2006 - 20:26:11) allan. NO i do not have any inside information i just go and read papers that can be read by members of the public and make my own judgements

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (5th Apr 2006 - 20:34:03) eneida. I think that statment means the S & G dont get the hall for an extra cheap rent and thus other bodies in liphook ask why is the hall getting the most rent it poss could. If the council were to let the hall out on the cheap how many of you in this parish (those of you who give a dam) who then moan at the council . You also seen to think the council make (or your words suggest) some money out of this, the council is YOU and its you that will see the good out of any money. Go and be on the council and see things from the other side

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Dante (5th Apr 2006 - 22:56:56) Well said Eneida! I'd like to hear answers to those questions too. What I find most baffling is that the parish council are supposed to be working on behalf of the village, yet appear to be battling against what the majority wishes (I too would like to see the S&G remain in the hall - even if means we did have to pay tax towards it, although we don't!). The PC has a lot of answer... - Why do they hold these meetings behind closed doors? What do they have to hide from us? I mean come on! - Why didn't they inform us of what was going on? I don't appear to have been the only one who has only just found out there is an issue here! Can someone tell me how I can get these answers off the council?!? Do I write to them? If so what is the address? I assumed that turning up at a council meeting would have been the way to speak to the people looking after my area on my behalf but it appears not! What is frustrating is I don't seem to be able to have any influence over what 12 people decide is apparently best for all of us. Also could Freddie or one of the other councillers post up a list of the people on the council (sorry I don't know who has been elected - yet again more bad communication!), I'd like to check there aren't any other people like Andrew Ellis still on board you see (as the way Andrew has presented himself in this thread is, in my opinion, very poor). There clearly are though based on the news that the PC are throwing away all this money on a court case no one wants but them wants. Finally, one last question, when can we vote? I'm sure I'm not the only one who has decided that it may actually be worth voting next time to ensure that we finally get people interested in the community running our village. (No offence to any councillers who haven't done anything wrong - this is aimed at just those who clearly don't get what we all want and require of them). p.s. Respect to Simon Coyte. Hope he stands next time the vote is on - I'll vote in back in to replace someone!

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Eneida (6th Apr 2006 - 08:26:23) Andrew, I'm not interested in any of the arguments going on between certain 'personalities' on both sides. I simply feel sorry for the children, because I know from a friend who works with the Rainbows, how much enjoyment they get out of it. I think it would be a terrible shame if they lose their halls because a buch of adults can't reach an acceptable compromise over the rent. And hardly a good example to set children!! You say the Council is ME...well if that's so I can't think of a better use for my money than providing children with all the benefits and enjoyment they get from belonging to the S&G and I would certainly let them rent the halls "on the cheap" as you put it. Eneida

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (6th Apr 2006 - 17:52:15) A point that also seems to have been missed is when the S & G have been getting money from letting the hall out why have they not paid ANY rent

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (8th Apr 2006 - 17:21:06) Like i said before go to the council offices and ask to see what papers are available and you can sit there all day and read them. Dante you should get off your backside and go and be on the council if you feel so strongly.You should ask yourself why have no S&G members posted any comments since the court case.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Freddie Dawkins (8th Apr 2006 - 22:32:49) The Parish Council offices are at The Haskell Centre, Midhurst Road (in the car park and opposite the Chinese takeaway). The offices are open Monday-Friday, 10-4. They close for lunch between 1-2. Any member of the public can ask to see any minutes of any meeting. They cannot see minutes of exempt sessions. Exempt sessions are set by the Local Government Code which all Councils and Councillors have to work to. So B&L PC is not unusual in having to go into exempt sessions - all PC's do when they have to discuss certain financial, contractual or staff matters. The next Parish Council elections will be in May 2007. The Parish Council information on this site was compiled by me as one of the volunteer contributors to this site. It's three years out of date - mostly my fault. I did a complete revision a few weeks back, with all the new Councillor details. This website's editor is redesigning the site at the moment and has not had time to upload all the new info. But I know he plans to do so shortly. Hope this helps. rgds to all Freddie Dawkins Parish Councillor

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Dante (9th Apr 2006 - 15:59:11) Andrew - Maybe I will stand. That's not a bad idea, I guess my manafesto would be to make the PC open and honest to the people it is serving, and accountable, and sensible - I think that'd be enough to get me voted in even though I have no prior experience of politics. I'm a bit confused why you are not on the council any more too if you feel so strongly. (Just to point out I do admire the time and effort the current councillors are putting in - its just a shame the effort is mis-directed in my opinion) As for why the Scout and Guides are not posting - I read a comment above that it was because, much like the PC, they've been told they can no longer comment on this issue due to the court case?!? Freddie - thanks very much for the information. I must admit I was stupidly clueless - I might pop into the centre next week. I'm still confused why the S&G issue is being discussed behind closed doors. Freddie, can you give a clue as to what financial data is being discussed that cannot talked about in the open? Surely it is tax payers money so we have a right to know what possible plans there are for it. Also can you let me know when the council is planning to hold a Scouts and Guides questions and answers session? Based upon the reports of the last meeting there are a lot of questions which have been deflected until a later date. I'm sure the parish council is not deliberately avoiding them thus will be happy to answer them as soon as they can?!? (Being dim I'm particularly keen for someone to explain to me why the council is not out to make a profit but, despite already making a profit, is looking to make an even bigger profit!) Thanks all. Bring on 2007!

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andrew Ellis (10th Apr 2006 - 11:52:08) Dante . 1 I left the council due to work commitments and not being able to give the full amount of time needeed. 2 The reason matters like the S & G are talked about , at times behind closed doors is that money or legal matters being discussed and those matters are private .3 The council is not out for just a proffit but to get value for money for the asset they have.4 The question also comes to mind is that if the S&G cant pay this rent what would they expect to pay for a building with the same facilities as they have.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - S & G Halls Committee (11th Apr 2006 - 12:21:44) Some clarification to the issue of the Scout & Guide Halls as follows:- 1. The proceedings issued by the Scouts and Guides in Portsmouth County Court in November last year were a direct consequence of a Notice to Quit issue by Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council in May 2005 pursuant to Section 25 of the Landlord & Tenant Act 1954. Had those proceedings not been issued, the Scouts and Guides would not have been able to claim security of tenure as permitted by that statue. 2. Negotiations as to a possible new rent and other terms of the Lease have been underway between the Scouts and Guides on the one hand and the Council on the other as a result of the Notice to Quit ever since. A form of draft Lease was issued by the Council’s solicitors in September 2005, there are a number of technical issues to be resolved, all of which have a bearing on the rent which is properly payable. 3. The rent demanded by the Council under the terms of the Section 25 Notice was £6,000 per annum from each of the Scouts and Guides. The rent offered by each of Scouts and Guides following professional advice from a Chartered Surveyor was £1,225 per annum each. Having heard arguments for both sides, the District Judge on 31st March 2006 ordered an interim rent of £2,000 per annum each. 4. No costs were awarded in favour of the Parish Council at that hearing on 31st March, they were “reserved to the Trial Judge”; this means that each party at any subsequent trial will have to make its own representations to a judge then, who will then make his own decision. Mention is made above of a surveyor acting on behalf of the Scouts and Guides. The Council’s solicitors suggested as long as June 2005 that surveyors ought to be instructed on behalf of both parties to discuss the rent question. The Scouts and Guides advised the Council’s solicitors as their choice of surveyor, Peter Elford F.R.I.C.S. of Gascoignes Limited of Guildford, as at the beginning of August. As at the 10th April 2006 our solicitor has not heard from the Council’s solicitor as to which surveyor is to be appointed to represent the Council, if any.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Allan (12th Apr 2006 - 02:13:36) So, if what you say is true; that you received notice to quit from the P.C., then we have been misled by them! I was personally in conversation with a former parish councillor just two days ago;he says you are wrong. He also gave an informal insight into the original workings of the agreement between S&G and B&L.PC and the representatives of Sainsburies P.L.C. I can see from that where S.&G. are coming from in their claim to ownership of their particular sector of the building. Regrettably there does not appear to be any legal status to this belief. You know what; I wish you had! I'm not impressed by the performance of the officers of the S&G on this site (I think they have, at best, tried to manipulate the members of our community misleadingly) I imagine their motives were honourable, even if naive and clumsy S&G, your original post was entitled S&G v Parish council. the P.C. are the representatives of all of us. You can't seriously be suggesting that it is S&G v a caring community, can you? Now, I have a suggestion; lets all get away from the stand off created by S&G and the P.C. I know there is big time history to this, but it is, by and large to do with egos, damaged or otherwise. Why not take the guidance given by the judge as a baseline to work with and allow a quorum of good men and true (sorry, I'm not being sexist) from, say L.I.D.BA., to adjudicate. I know from personal experience the wealth of intellect and integrity that resides within. You would do well to ask their advice and divest ourselves of what is becoming a devisive issue serving none of us. Can I suggest, without prejudice, the following L.I.D.B.A. members as eminently suitable for the task: Ken Charles:,lives his professional life sorting out far more complex issues with what used to be known as The Forestry Commission. Bernard Bailey;wise as an owl and always sees the big picture. Peter Lawrance, financial director of an eminent local company. Form a commitee, ask these people to join you, take their best advice, and get on with it as they recommend, both parties, that is, and push all this nonsense aside Finally, I will make no more posts on this thread, but ,if Liphook S&G do require sponsorship to assist their continued existance at The M.C., I'm still in(with qualifications) the ideal is more than worth it.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - M.A. (11th Aug 2006 - 13:21:10) Any progress ? Things are very quiet !! M.A.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - andrew ellis (13th Aug 2006 - 11:16:36) think things have got to legal .

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Finchie (13th Aug 2006 - 12:24:15) If that is the case then that is PATHETIC and a number people should grow up and not throw toys out prams. Both parties should be ashamed of themselves. Finchie

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Paul Robinson (14th Aug 2006 - 13:00:03) Has anyone considered enlisting the services of ACAS? They are more associated with high profile employment and payment issues but they can be called upon to mediate in seemingly implacable cases like this. Surely anything has got to be better than resorting to law. Paul Robinson

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - M.A. (23rd Aug 2006 - 13:15:02) I emailed our MP sometime ago and asked if he could get the two parties together, to save public money and at least ensure that they spoke together, guess what - he said he couldn't interfere in a local issue unless both parties asked him to - I did not persue this rabbit hole as I thought that the parish council would not want to ask anyone for help for fear that they would find it difficult to put up a proper argument for requesting that amount of money from the scouts and guides because the hall already runs at a profit. M.A.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - James Arbuthnot (24th Aug 2006 - 10:43:30) That's quite right. I cannot mediate between two sets of people unless they both want me to. I have extremely carefully refrained from taking sides in this long-running dispute - not an easy thing for an MP to do - on the off-chance that one day both sets of people might want me to mediate. But since so far neither side has asked me to, I think it would be extremely presumptuous of me to suggest that I should.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Mike Grimes (31st Jan 2007 - 17:31:34) Whilst browsing Parish Council meeting minutes I could not help noticing that whenever the Scouts and Guides issue was discussed a number of councillors either left the meeting or did not vote after declaring a "predudicial interest" presumably as they had a son or daughter in one of the organisations or some other connection with it. Surely the rest of the council also had a predudicial interest as they did NOT have offspring in the Scouts or Guides.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Andy woodage (2nd Feb 2007 - 13:15:39) Just to complete the picture re mediation by our MP; The PC recently rejected an offer by Mr Arbuthnot to mediate in the dispute although the Scouts & Guides had agreed to this initiative.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - derek bruce (21st Mar 2007 - 10:19:50) Just a quick technical point for the halls committee! If the Council did not serve a section 25 notice, then the S+G would continue under their curent terms of occupation - with full security of tenure! It is only if a section 25 notice is served that the Council can woop the rent up and seek to change any lease terms - however - always at the discretion of the judge! The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors does run a lease renewal scheme alongside court proceedings - it could be that you ask the RICS for a pro bono arbitrator! Finally - God bless Andy Woodage who is no longer with us - and who gave so much time - free of charge - for Scouting/Guiding and other youth in Liphook. I am sure as a legacy to him - an amicable agreement could be reached. Derek

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Rhys G (21st Mar 2007 - 15:06:49) Totally agree with Derek there. Best wishes to all who knew Andy, of which I was one.

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Sue (21st Mar 2007 - 19:24:43) So, what have the scouts and guides paid thus far? Absolutely nothing as far as I can see! Get a grip - something for nothing is all I see here and as I understand it, making money out of other users. I'd love to be living in my home and paying nothing for it. Dream on!

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - LippyChick (22nd Mar 2007 - 08:49:52) Hi Sue The Scouts and Guides never ever expected to pay nothing at all. They are certainly not looking for free handouts. The hall was originally designed with them in mind, and both organisations have invested vast sums of money and manpower to get the halls fitted out, including with kitchens, bathrooms and floors. All they are asking is that the fees that they are being charged are realistic and sensible. They are both voluntary organisations that work tremendously hard to get a fantastically high quality of service to literally hundreds of children in the village. They simply do not have the budget to pay what the parish council is suggesting. On another thread you (rightly) argue the fact that due to the larger Sainsburys we may lose local traders, which would be a dreadful loss to Liphook. I truly believe that losing the Scouts and Guides would be an even bigger blow, and I say that as a local trader myself. They offer a low cost activity for all children, the learning of new experiences, teaching social responsibility and a real investment in the kids of the village. Surely that is something to be taken seriously? They are not looking for handouts, just a reasonable approach. It is painful to see the row having gone as far as it has with court dates now set. I just hope that someone can see reason. I too would like to add my own condolences about Andy Woodage. A wonderful man who gave freely of his time and energy for the Scouts of Liphook, and much loved by many whose lives he touched. My love and best wishes to the family. Lips x

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Nigel Marr (22nd Mar 2007 - 10:42:02) Like many people who have read through this thread and the various articles in the local newspaper I would dearly wish that a final and fair resolution to this matter can be reached. With the very untimely death of Andy Woodage it would be wonderful to see the matter brought to a swift conclusion as this ongoing conflict does no honour to a man that encapsulates evrything that our Scouts and Guides are about. Andy gave freely of his time to ensure that our young people from Beavers up to Scouts had the opportunity to develop life skills that are not taught anywhere else. I did not know Andy as a personal friend but on the many occaisons that our paths crossed whilst my son progressed through Liphook Scouts you were greeted by a kind, dedicated and caring man whose total outlook was to the welfare, enjoyment and nurturing of our children. At this very sad time for Andy's family it would be wise for us all to sit back and reflect on why people like him give their time to the children of Liphook and try to put this business behind us so that we can move forward and build on this tremendous avenue of child development. Andy you will be greatly missed by us all. Nigel

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - sue W (23rd Mar 2007 - 13:32:20) Lips Hi, Think you aimed the comment yesterday to the WRONG SUE. I have no axe at all to grind for either side, and have such little facts that would fit on a pin head, and certainly would not interfer in issues that I am not involved in!! This is the danger when so many people have the same name. From sue the other trader - you know who I am - luckily i know who you are too!! LOL Love & xxxx

Re: Scouts & Guides vs the Parish Council - Mammal (25th Mar 2007 - 13:24:07) Tricky one this I sense an impasse and a very awkward decision for the Judge, a high court appeal and possibly further, but the scouts must hold firm because they will have the Judge's sympathy. Be prepared to budget about £40,000-£70,000 for any impending high court trial. If you don't win the first round force the Parish council into an untenable financial commitment to Legal fees this will then put public pressure on the Parish Council and hopefully some resignations will ensue. It is also important to remember that consumer regulations are now applicable to Land/property contracts, contact the Office of Fair trading they could easily turn up something that will strengthen your case. Remember an outright win is not completely necessary as you are already in occupancy but the right to appeal could be the key factor here. So good luck scouts and guides you have the upper hand morally and certainly my support. Slam dunk those bureaucratic prima donas, take 'em down to china town and most importantly. BE PREPARED!

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