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Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Pam (5th Jan 2012 - 17:44:57) I was appalled to read in this week’s Herald that preliminary meetings have taken place and are due to continue to take place before parish council and committee meetings – the reason – wait for it – “to help with talks.” It was reported that Cllr Mrs Easton explained that this procedure would help councillors avoid heated discussions in public. What part does democracy play in this? She will be saying next that we in Bramshott and Liphook do not want to behave like The House of Commons!! Pre-parish council meetings behind closed doors, whatever next. The fact that she states that Denmead and Haslemere Town Council have already adopted this practice does not make it a sound and democratic procedure. What a terrible example some of our present parish councillors are giving to young and old alike. The inference that must be drawn from all this is that some councillors are incapable of behaving themselves in public and unable to have reasoned, well balanced and informed discussions and therefore must be given the chance to “blow off steam” or “throw their toys out of the pram” in private. Or worse still, any councillors who have an ounce of spirit, individuality or integrity and are perceived to be “rocking the boat”, are firmly subjugated in the pre-parish council meetings. Who knows? We can only guess and the answers that are clear to me bode no good for the people of Liphook.

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Paul Robinson (5th Jan 2012 - 20:40:58) Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Paul Robinson, I am a Parish Councillor and, although I frequently post on this web site, I have never posted with regard to Parish Council affairs as I believe that this should be done at Parish Council meetings. However I should like to explain what pre meetings are all about and, if I may, I should like to illustrate the benefits by using an actual situation which illustrates the benefits of a pre meeting. The first meeting I attended as a Parish Councillor was called upon to decide the fate of the oak tree at the rear of the Parish Office, close to the Peak Centre. A couple of limbs had fallen off the tree, one of which had damaged the Peak Centre. The fate of this tree was discussed in open meeting and the decision was made that a \'felling order\' should be issued. A couple of parish councillors strenuously opposed this decision and stated that the tree should be surveyed by an arborealist in case the tree could be saved. If a pre meeting had been operating at that time the chairman, Eve Hope, who knew the proceedure, could have explained to the protesting councillors that a \'felling order\' on a tree with a TPO (Tree Preservation Order) is merely a trigger for the tree to be surveyed by a specialist who would decide if the tree should be felled, lopped or left untouched. As a new parish councillor, I watched as the exchange became unecessarily heated with one half of the council knowing what needed to be done, as a duty of care to the public, and other half protested in order to save the tree. This is a prime example of the sort of thing that a pre-meeting could sort out, sparing the public from an embarressing exchange of hot air all for no benefit. Liphook and Bramshott Parish Council have not used this form of pre-meeting before but, as witnessed at recent meetings of Haslemere Town Council and Denmead Parish Council, one of Hampshire\'s premiere Parish Councils, we were out of step. Pre meetings are not, as suggested here, some sort of secret cabal, intent on passing motions by sleight of hand. No motions are passed or decided upon. They are all about sorting priorities and proceedures in order to make meaningful decisions that make sense. Paul Robinson

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Finchie (6th Jan 2012 - 00:12:34) Sounds like a good thing to me ... "Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance" And boy do we need to avoid that ;-) Particularly as there seems to be loads of protocol & process involved and there are people new to it who can't be expected to know everything in detail - as Paul pointed out. Happens all the time in business. I assume all councillors are invited to the prep meeting - otherwise that would be odd. Happy New Year and Happy Weekend ! Cheers, Finchie

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Dawn Hoskins (6th Jan 2012 - 19:00:03) Hi Pam. Have you been to many Parish meetings? If you have, you will no that a lot of discussion is amongst Councillors who are finding out info and up-dating each other etc. This is time consuming and has nothing to do with how people vote for any particular item. In fact, no voting of any sort is permitted at a meeting that is not an official Parish Council meeting. When we visited the other Councils, they were absolutely amazed that we did not have a preparation meeting. They asked how on earth do you cope - your meetings must last for hours! I have found it particularly useful as a new Councillor as I can ask about procedures that have to be followed etc which everyone else already knows. I have not got a copy of the paper yet, but imagine we have all been painted as baffoons again? [no offence meant to any baffoons who may be reading].

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - pam (7th Jan 2012 - 14:36:16) Thank you, Paul for your very interesting and enlightening posting. It is always pleasing to read well balanced and literate postings on this site. Would there were more of them. I totally agree with the content of your posting and I think some councils who adopt this method of approach call these meetings pre-Agenda meetings. If this were to be the case in Liphook and Bramshott then I, along with may other electors I am sure, would welcome it, as no one wants to attend long winded and drawn out meetings where people say much and achieve little. My only reservation would be that given the recent history of Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council, these meetings might be a vehicle for coercion and secrecy. However new councillors have been elected recently breathing fresh and invigorating air through the parish offices. Dawn, in answer to your posting, yes, I have been to many parish and district council meetings and I was well aware that at pre parish/agenda meeting no motions or votes are taken. In my original posting if you read it carefully, no mention is made of decisions, motions or voting, I was concerned for democracy, free speech and integrity.

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Dawn Hoskins (7th Jan 2012 - 16:52:35) Hello again Pam, I haven’t yet had a chance to talk to Councillor Jerrard in depth , so bear with me on that. However I can comment on the Human Resources services and legal services that the council have the service of. The Decision (Resolution) to have HR was taken by the last Council – over two years ago. They passed that resolution as they were advised by EHDC to do so. Councillors [whether they like it or not] become employers when they take their seat and many do not know [and why should they] how to abide by the law with regards to employees. There are many employees of the Parish Council – all of whose needs should have been catered for and it is very unfortunate indeed that these services were not obtained at that time as considerable future expense could have been spared -rectifying problems that have occurred in the past. The only way to rectify serious problems correctly is to allow the professionals in that field make the decisions. That goes for HR and Solicitors. The previous Parish Council have always had a solicitor on hand, and have spent many thousands of pounds pursuing advice. The only reason people didn’t complain about it is [in my opinion] because they didn’t know about it. It is the very fact that the new council is being transparent about fees that you are given the opportunity to know about these things. You will be shocked when you find out how much money as been spent of legal advice in the past. In addition, our solicitor did not work for Baker & McKenzie [to my knowledge]. That firm has over 4,000 lawyers and about 1,500 partners. I think you are trying to say that if a person has worked there then they must be a friend of Councillor Jerrard. I can confirm that four people met and interviewed Mr Armstrong prior to him being deemed acceptable to us as a Council. We had originally chosen another person but she opted out as when the depth and breath of the problems were seen she felt they were outside of her specialisms. We did wish to employs a local specialist but that also was not possible.

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - helen (8th Jan 2012 - 10:09:15) Pam I believe all pre-agenda meetings are open to all councillors to attend What difference does it make whether they are called pre-meetings or pre agenda meetings? if it has the effect of creating more harmony and less personal sniping is that not a good thing? As a previous poster has said the district council have them but I believe they are called political meetings instead, as they are more party0 politic focused.

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Mike O’Neil (9th Jan 2012 - 13:06:24) See quote from Haslemere Town Clerk ‘All Councils in the UK hold management meetings to plan and prepare their business for approval by Council. It is not practical to have Council agenda items when there has been no thought to the substance behind that item. Accordingly, it is indeed common practice to plan ahead of a meeting’. Mike O’Neil Haslemere Town Clerk

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - nick (9th Jan 2012 - 13:47:46) It Is a "grey area" and i would argue that there should be liason between Chairman and Clerk beforehand anyway i cant see the informal mettings are a problem if it helps make a smooth passage later. Obviosly any vote and discussion should be aired at a proper public meeting and must be minuted. It is impossible to go into a meeting "cold" as a councillor when an issue is contentious and start washing all the dirty linen in public... background knowledge, information etc is vital. At district level there are always "reports" prepared for councillors by officers(usually by the CEO,s office) prior to any meetings for just this purpose. Can't be specific but from prior experience (if done correctly) it should work.. looking back at at what has occurred over the last few years and all the aggrevation and upset some have caused all i can say is do it properly and openly then there should be no kickback from nitpickers.

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Pam (9th Jan 2012 - 20:32:36) Helen, thank you for your reply. At the risk of becoming repetitive, I can only say again that if these pre, whatever one likes to call them, meetings assist the democratic process and enable meetings to be concise and co-ordinated to the benefit of the Liphook electors then I would fully support them. However in this free and democratic society I exercise my right to express my doubts, given the recent track record of some of the councillors on Liphook and Bramshott Parish Council. For the record East Hampshire District Council do have pre-Agenda meetings. The attendees are only the relevant council officers and the Chairman and Vice-Chairman of that particular committee.

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - pam (10th Jan 2012 - 13:23:52) Dawn The Threads seem to be geting a little confused so I am replying to your last posting to me in this thread in full in the Councillor Jerrard Thread as I think this is more relevant.

Re: Pre-Parish Council Meetings - Dawn Hoskins (10th Jan 2012 - 13:38:06) Yes Pam , think I put my reply in the wrong place, sorry about that.

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