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front page liphook herald - graeme irwin (28th Jul 2011 - 16:07:22) What is going on, new councillors (1 of which is a [former] solicitor the other has a degree but has never practiced) digging up old issues that have been settled and put to bed. Chairman of finance and vice chairman ot the council Mr.Croucher seems intent on costing the parishoners more money as he seems to employ with gay abanon. May I suggest that we all be reminded of the words of the wise man. The pragmatist says,'I change my mind when the facts change' The dogmatist says,'My Mind is Made Up-Do Not Confuse Me With the FACTS' New beginning ill do the jokes Graeme

Re: front page liphook herald - helen (28th Jul 2011 - 17:03:17) Do not believe anything written on the subject by our local "reporter" do you have your degree in spelling Graeme?

Re: front page liphook herald - dawn hoskins (28th Jul 2011 - 17:28:15) I haven't seen the paper yet, but just looked at the strap line on the Herald website. However, I have been to the meetings, and can confirm that there was NO STORM whatsoever amongst councillors on this matter. Again, I am not sure which meetings our trusty Herald reporter has attended, but it wasn't any of the ones I have attended if the paper is stating that hiring HR etc has caused a storm. The Council were advised years ago to appoint HR, and it was actually the OLD council that approved this (but didn't get around to doing it). No employer should be without HR advice and even EHDC has told the Council to get it sorted. Parishioners can rest easy in their beds Graeme! Additionally, the Council are changing their solicitors. This will not cost any more than the old one used. Again, parishioners can rest easy The only real item of contention as the last meeting was about a tree and whether to prune it or fell it. The reasons behind changing our solicitors was explained quite clearly and so was the employment of HR. The audience actually gave the Chairman a round of applause (which is a first for any Council meeting I have attended)! Two councillors who had not managed to attend the Finance and Policy meeting wanted a run down of what had happened and didn't like it that the minutes had not been published. (Minutes are always produced in time to the next meeting of that particular committee, so will be ready as per normal in time for the next Finance and Policy meeting). I would very much like to know who these 'parish represensatives' are that feel justified in accusing any one of the busy new Councillors of “wasting public money on “navel gazing”. We are the subject of a litigation claim based on the old council. What would you like us to do Graeme? Sit on our hands and pretend it is not happening? I urge parishioners, don't believe all the negative spin that the Herald print - come to meetings instead and hear it from the horses mouth. You might even give us a round of applause like the public at the last meeting! Wouldn't it be nice to have a headline like this "...Public are so pleased with New Council that they give them a standing Ovation........." but maybe the truth doesn't sell newspapers?!

Re: front page liphook herald - Commoner (28th Jul 2011 - 17:41:34) I was at the last meeting held in the Peak Centre to allow for more members of the public to attend. 9 did so we could have stayed in the Haskell Centre. If you want to moan then attend the meetings and listen to the facts. The reported was not provided with a table to lean on so she was not happy from the start.

Re: front page liphook herald - Richard (28th Jul 2011 - 17:46:51) Forget the accuracy damn it!. Make sure we have a photo on the front page, perferably children or a cute animal because that sells papers, and the correct facts do not...Maybe we should suggest that The Herald reporter hacks a few phones to get some accurate scoops :) (And I am only joking about the last, in case anyone thinks I am serious! Go and change your Voicemail PIN if you are feeling nervous)

Re: front page liphook herald - Liz (28th Jul 2011 - 18:07:26) So Dawn as you seem to know so much, how much did the old solicitors cost and how much do the new ones cost per hour? It is a simple question that has not yet been answered, not at the meeeting and not by you now, enlighten us we are still awaiting an answer. Also how much is the HR costing?Why didn't Mr. Croucher let us all know rather than keeping the figures from us and refuse to answer the questions. Liz

Re: front page liphook herald - Dawn Hoskins (28th Jul 2011 - 20:24:34) Councillor Croucher did not talk about costs in the open session as some contractual arrangements are not open to debate. Over the years the Council has spent absolutely thousands with the last solicitors that were used. That was public money. The new Council has set up a working party especially to look into the accounts to ensure that this has been presented in a transparent way. When that investigation has finished a report will be given. As yet, are not in receipt of the paper work required to complete this. I believe the last solicitor that was used charged £250 per hour, and I can confirm that the new one will cost less. I cannot however go into specific contract details. We are acutely aware of costs and will do everything possible to keep them as low as possible. Again, the Human Resources advice is on an 'as and when' basis. It would not be possible to forego this at the present time and we have been told by EHDC to do this. Apart from agreeing who we might use, I don't think any costs have been incurred yet. It has taken a while to get to this point as every decision is put to the full committee or the full council, so that no individual councillors can make arbitrary decisions. All Councillors can [and most do] attend all committee meetings. We are doing this so there is a clear paper trail and a clear log of every resolution [vote] that has been passed. This is a long and quite tedious process, but we need to ensure that every I is dotted and every T is crossed. It is not nice to be in this position, but we must, and will, deal with it in the most cost effective way possible. I post here giving my own opinions and do not speak for or on behalf of the Parish Council.

Re: front page liphook herald - Liz (28th Jul 2011 - 21:35:00) Dawn, It seems very strange that you can conjure up figures from somewhere for the last solicitors costs (which you seem pretty vague about anyway) but still seem to hide the costs of the new solicitors fees, in your response you never actually tell us what the new costs are, you just say "I think they will be less". If your aim is to allow the public to know the costs and be transparent about all the councils dealings why the secrecy with the new costs? It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier for Mr. Croucher just to tell everyone the cost of the new solicitors if they had been cheaper than the old solicitors, therefore my conclusion is that they are not cheaper and his silence on the matter and your vagueness about the figures only stands to strengthen this argument. It is all very well you writing a large and confusing response but without any actual figures being released by you, it seems you would like us all just to take you at your word and I'm sorry but that is not good enough for me, facts and figures is what we want not a smoke screen and long winded excuses. Liz

Re: front page liphook herald - liz (29th Jul 2011 - 10:35:11) Other 'Liz' I would think Dawn has answered your question as well as she possibly can at this stage. At least things are changing. As I have said before I think the new councillors need a bit of time.

Re: front page liphook herald - dawn (29th Jul 2011 - 12:02:18) Hi (other) Liz, To make it clear: no solicitor’s costs have been incurred – all that has happened is that the Council have passed a motion for new solicitors to be agreed. This has been done because the Council were having some problems with the previous solicitors. As with all law firms, different levels of staff charge differing amounts. If and when we are billed we will then be able to give an accurate figure. This, as in all legal costs, will depend on the level of seniority of the staff dealing with the matter (which will be more if it is more complicated and less if it is straightforward). What the Council were voting on was to agree to have solicitors available to us should they be required. There is nothing secret going on as much as the Herald would like it. It like me asking you how much you will have to pay for an item you have not actually purchased yet – you can’t say until it happens. Your argument that ‘as we cannot tell you how much we might have to spend in the future - that the replacement must be more expensive’ is simply not the case. With regard to the previous law firm, it is true that there is confusion over the figures. The council are working hard to establish what work was done and how much it cost, but until we receive those documents we are in the dark. A working party has been tasked with this, for the specific reason that we wish to have transparency. That is why it is so laughable that the Herald says the new council is secretive. I think that when you use the word ‘you’ you are referring to the Council rather than me personally? The absolute intention of this Council is to properly account for every decision that is made, and for all Councillors to vote on every decision made. The majority of the new councillors stood specifically as they did not like the previous administration which was felt to be dysfunctional and very much ‘smoke and mirrors’ as far as administrative processes were concerned. This Council will therefore not require anyone to ‘take them at their word’ as everything will be minuted and on show. To reiterate: When we know how much has been spent on the law firm previously instructed – we will publish it. IF & WHEN we need to use a solicitor, costs will be agreed depending on the nature of the work required. I am sorry if you find my posts confusing. That is not my intention. I am certainly not making excuses – just stating the facts. Please also remember that I am one of 12 councillors, and just because I choose to communicate my opinions on this forum does not mean I am ‘in charge’ of anything [far from it].

Re: front page liphook herald - liz (29th Jul 2011 - 12:40:45) I have not read the Herald Report but in the past a journalist on the paper was very supportive of certain members of the council who were not voted in this time - so it sounds like sour grapes. It is a pity we do not get accurate, impartial reporting, particularly as change does appear to be happening but I suppose that doesn't sell papers.

Re: front page liphook herald - graeme (29th Jul 2011 - 15:32:01) Dawn, you contradict yourself,first message implies that you have had to appointed new solicitors because of a litigation claim against the council, therefore you must know their fees, specifically as you claim that you have issues with the councils previous solicitors. Where is your \'prima facie\' evidence?

Re: front page liphook herald - Richard (29th Jul 2011 - 16:23:45) If the HR advice is on an "ad hoc" basis, could EHDC provide it at a suitable rate (who we also pay for) or is their anyone locally who would be prepared to do it "pro bono"

Re: front page liphook herald - john (29th Jul 2011 - 17:26:08) Spot on liz.

Re: front page liphook herald - Liz (29th Jul 2011 - 18:37:41) Dawn, Your analogy of legal pricing is ridiculous! You compare it to buying a product in a shop! You do buy products in a shop and yes you do ask how much a product costs before buying, so in fact your analogy completely undermines what you are trying to say. You can however use the analogy of employing a tradesman you get a £ per hour rate and once the work is done there are usually unforeseen added costs, in my experience with legal firms which as my husband was a solicitor for many years is quite extensive, they have a rate per hour for their work and will set this out to you before commencing with any work, it would be ridiculous for them to not do this and highly illegal. It seems like a strange position you seem to have put yourself in as a council to change solicitors and to agree to a new firm without any knowledge of their pricing structure, If the new solicitors are reading this they will be rubbing their hands together thinking we will charge huge sums. But as you said you will just wait for the bill to come in and let us know then, what a very odd way of working. Also if it was a simple as just "we do not know the costs yet" why didn't Mr Croucher just say that at the time rather than the silence. It seems like every excuse in the book is being used to hide a very simple answer to a very simple question how much are the public being asked to pay for the new solicitors compared to the old solicitors. Graeme you seem to be seeing the same thing as me, Dawn Hoskins defending Mr Croucher and the decisions of certain councillors with some very contradictory reasoning and no facts. Greame keep on trying to get the truth eventually one of them will actually give it to us!! Dawn I look forward to the facts, not so much the excuses and analogies Liz

Re: front page liphook herald - Dawn Hoskins (30th Jul 2011 - 11:39:42) Graeme. Cannot see where the contradiction is. A claim was issued. We have to deal with it. Previous solicitors not getting on with new council. Solicitor needs to be authorised to act if we need it. Not prepared to spend tax payers money unless required, so no legal work done yet. What are you talking about …'prima facie' evidence? Richard. Council members [not me] spent hours and hours at EHDC but their advice was to get independent HR as it was beyond their capabilities. Liz. Can see no reason to keep repeating the same facts. There are standard price ranges in any firm – which I said quite clearly. If you would like to contact the service providers and get their permission to print the details, please go ahead. That is their decision – not ours. The standing orders within which EVERY Council must work, does not permit the negotiations of contracts between parties to be discussed. If you would like to take that up with the National Association of Local Councils, please go ahead. Councillor Croucher said very clearly, that the cost will be either the same or less compared to the previous solicitors. I believe I have also said that in one of my previous posts. Simples! As far as defending councillors. Meetings are open to everyone, all councillors vote in front of the public. The two councillors that did not come to the previous meeting where this was discussed, were invited to come in exactly the same way as everyone else. They chose not to and therefore did not have the background information as to why providers were to be changed. They are entitled to vote for or against any proposal. They voted against – everyone else voted for. Liz, if you would like to come to the next meeting and direct your concerns to the Council I am sure the Chairman can assist you further. Meanwhile – I am being very polite and do not think that your personal attack is warranted. I am not the Council. Again, I urge the public to come to meetings. The minutes of any meeting can only ever give a summary. The only way to fully understand what is going on is to hear the full debate behind the issues and the points raised / questions asked before voting takes place.

Re: front page liphook herald - Richard (30th Jul 2011 - 21:21:19) The detail that the HR issues were beyond the EHDC HR department does concern me as I would have assumed (perhaps wrongly) that they would have had a full time team for this area (and the EHDC web site lists 6). If I get time I may ask the question to the District as to why they are uanble to undertkae this. It may be resourcing, or is it ability?

Re: front page liphook herald - Sharon (31st Jul 2011 - 09:31:33) Has anyone contacted the Editor of The Herald to take issue with the accuracy of their reporters? Is Ms Pike employed by The Herald, or freelance? I just wondered why some articles name the author and others don't.

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