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ID Cards - Alex Cameron (27th May 2005 - 23:10:37) Mr Arbuthnot, if you're listening - how about you show the electorate how grateful you are for being elected by making your objection to these disgusting filth pustule cards very widely known? Please feel free to reply with suitably shallow 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' tripe....

Re: ID Cards - Dick (31st May 2005 - 19:19:04) Alex, I think you have done him in with "Pastule", It did me..........

Re: ID Cards - Dick (31st May 2005 - 19:26:52) Alex, I think you have done him in with "Pustule", It did me..........

Re: ID Cards - rw (31st May 2005 - 23:04:39) Ok, so help me out here. What's so wrong with the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument? The ID card issue is surely important enough to warrant a serious debate, rather than knee jerk, immature, Dave Spart hyperbole, isn't it? Among many relevant points for debate, the following strike me (and, nb, they don't all point in the same direction). Most people in Europe have ID cards, and they haven't turned (any more than we have) into police states. If Big Brother wants to take charge (and I think there's every sign he does), he doesn't need an ID card system - he could use tax reference numbers, social security numbers, national insurance numbers, car number plates, etc, etc. The fact the Spanish have ID cards didn't stop the Madrid bombings. An ID card could give us a fast track for moving at least through Europe without a passport. It's not having an ID card that's the problem, it's what the State does with it: requiring it to be produced on the spot on request to a policeman is not acceptable (viz the South African "pass laws" of the 1960s); but requiring it be produced within a week (like a driving licence, following a traffic offence) doesn't sound so bad. And - if it was technologically sound - it could be a very useful first/second proof of identity, currently not available to us. So, pustule or not, I'd like to hear the arguments, rather than just be insulted. Any other takers? rw

Re: ID Cards - Eneida (1st Jun 2005 - 09:37:04) I object to ID cards on the principle that it's yet another form of BB watching us. But leaving that aside, don't you think £93 is a lot of money to pay for something even the Home Secretary, Mr. Clarke, agress is not fail safe? We already have passports and the new driving licence shows a photo. I know both of these can be faked and presumably ID cards will also be faked - so why do we need them? It certainly doesn't prevent terrorism as shown by the Madrid bombings (as they already have them in Spain) and in 9/11 the terrorist's identity hadn't been hidden.

Re: ID Cards - Alex Cameron (1st Jun 2005 - 10:08:50) Its the databases and the ability to cross-reference them, not the cards. Its the world we want to exist in in 50 years time. I could list a 1000 objections, but i'll let you read for yourself: http://www.no2id.net/

Re: ID Cards - Chris (1st Jun 2005 - 10:27:00) rw.. suggest you lay off the expresso for a while...anybody would think that id cards were your idea!

Re: ID Cards - Alex Cameron (1st Jun 2005 - 14:56:07) Allow me to follow that up with a few other points, as this is something i am passionate about: a) We're sleepwalking into something this government is determined to force on us - the card distracts us away from the hideousness of the database behind it; b) Its going to cost 10x what they expect, and the project will be messed up (as usual); c) Why should i have to have my identity registered to live in the home of my birth? d) I've seen the technology broken in front of my very eyes, and lastly, if you have nothing to hide, then surely you will have no objection to me installing cameras in your living room - on your TV perhaps? In fact, why not in your shed or your bathroom?

Re: ID Cards - S (2nd Jun 2005 - 08:47:13) I thought you already had cameras in all those places and more Alex? There is a word for that I think. I have no real problem with ID cards although I don't fully know what it represents or how it will effect me. What I object to is paying 300 quid for it. Why should I have to pay for it? How can people afford to pay 300 quid each in a household? It's ridiculous. I also object to a council tax bill of 1800 quid ish. What the hell do I get for that amount of money? It's going to be 200 quid a month within the next 5 years.

Re: ID Cards - T (6th Jun 2005 - 15:34:13) I think that RW made some really sensible points - most of which seem to have been completely ignored. There are arguments for and against, and to leap to one opinion without thinking through all the issues (and worse criticise others for having a more open mind) isn't a great way to go. As I see it, there are a couple of key questions to ask: - Do the benefits outweigh the disadvantages (loss of privacy, cost, etc.) - Can it be done (is the technology working, can rules be written tightly enough that the information can't be abused)? I think that there are some real benefits to a working ID card scheme - I want the authorities to be able to pick up on benefits fraud, identity theft and other crimes which can be reduced by definitive identification. I don't think that the terrorist argument stands up so well as unless required to show them on demand (which I don't agree with). I think that the real issue is that ID cards are only of any use if: - They are difficult to copy / forge - You can be sure that the person in front of you is the person on the card - There is a database to back them up, so you can link information from different sources The trouble is that to make these work on a national scale - and to try to have a definitive way of identifying people - is such a huge and expensive task, and requires technology which really isn't ready yet. I therefore think it's too early to jump for this straight away. Some sort of lower-tech answer - with the ability to upgrade to biometrics when they become cheaper and more reliable - could provide us with some protection, and allow us to protect ourselves in the future. Am I worried about privacy? Yes - the use would need to be strictly for closely regulated purposes only. The thing is that the government already holds lots of records about people in lots of different places which is incredibly inefficient and costly, as well as less secure than this database would be. What this does at least achieve is a bit of a debate, and hopefully gets away from idea that all identiifcation is bad and the simplistic more-bobbies-on-the-beat-will-solve-all-our-problems school of thinking which ignores many serious types of crime. Right - that's me off my high horse for a minute...

Re: ID Cards - Tim Camilleri (13th Jun 2005 - 16:24:01) Alex You may be interested in this site for this and many other topics. I've signed. http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse Tim

Re: ID Cards - Alex Cameron (15th Jun 2005 - 18:05:57) Bizarrely enough, i got sent the link to this 20mins before reading the thread. MySociety's sites are always good, and i've signed up. I hate this little New Labour plan with a passion resembling physcial pain. I hear they want black boxes in our cars for PAYG road usage (i.e. tracking our travelling movements) now too?

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