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Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Phelim McIntyre (9th Apr 2011 - 14:08:05) Do you know where are Georgian Ice House is in Liphook? What is built over the site of a communal WW2 air raid shelter? Where a Royal Hunting Lodge was? Where the nearest Roman Road is? Where there is a tumulus or iron age burial ground in the parish? This Parish is full of history and while we have the Preservation Society so much of this is unexplored - we even have a lost settlement somewhere in the area of the old A3 near Radford Park. The U3A have a local history and archaeology group but they really just hosting speakers. Is anyone else interested in doing more? Field Walking, Landscape Archaeology, possibly even digging? If so please leave comments or email me on phelimmcintyre@hotmail.co.uk. For the answers: The Ice House is in Radford Park, the car park and flats next to the Newtown Road Surgery sits over the site of the air raid shelter, the Burg Estate is built on the site of the Royal Hunting Lodge and it's grounds, the Roman Road is part of the road from the Black Fox down to Milland, and the iron age burial mound is amongst the fairway of Liphook Golf Course. What else though is out there?

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Sue (9th Apr 2011 - 20:17:58) Have you contacted the Liss Archaeology Group?? I have been a member for about 5 years and every year try to spend as much time helping and learning when their 'Romano British' site is open. There is activity of Iron age, stone age and roman. Unfortunately part of the area was dug up for the new A3, but enough was left for us to unearth. The site is now closed, but they are actively looking into other sites in the area - for future digs. Some of the members have expert knowledge and equipment which they use for surveying and taking readings with. It may be worth contacting them for further information/help if you wanted to set up a group here, to help get the answers to your questions - and like Liss discover far more than was ever visualised. They do have links on the web, and videos to watch. Hope this helps. Sue

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Phelim (10th Apr 2011 - 18:47:22) Thanks Sue - I asked for details on joining Liss Archaeology Group and got no reply - not once but twice - so I am not that keen on contacting the Liss group for help. I am contacting the Council for British Archaeology for help as well as Woolmer Forest Heritage Society, Hampshire Field Club and Archaeological Society, and Hampshire and Sussex Boarder Archaeological Research Group.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Sue (11th Apr 2011 - 08:11:25) I am sorry you had problems getting a reply - dont know how long ago, but there is a new Secretary now. I just turned up to the site, was given a form to complete and started digging a few days later. They have exhibitions in the Triangle Centre Liss - and I will have to check the dates of the next one, which should be even better as its the last one of this 8(aprox) year project I will pass on the contact e-mail - via editor, as its a personal one for the Secretary - you dont have to use it, but its there if needed. Good luck with your plans for a Liphook group. Sue

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - liz (11th Apr 2011 - 08:33:31) Alternative answers: There is an Ice House at Hollycombe. Forest Mere claims to have originally been a Royal hunting lodge for Woolmer forest. What is now Tweenways supposedly used as a WW2 air raid shelter.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Sue (11th Apr 2011 - 08:43:45) The date for the exhibition is 22 OCTOBER from 11am - 3pm. For anyone else interested in local history or Archeology its worth while popping to Liss to have a look. Sue

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Phelim (12th Apr 2011 - 20:35:47) Liz - ice houses were common in the Georgian era so it's not surprising that Hollycombe has an ice house. The house at Chiltley Park (Burgh Estate) was the site of a residential lodge, where the Monarch stayed in the area. The Deer's Hut was a hunting lodge as in people could stay overnight but was not so large or grandeose. As to Tweenways (the cobler's) being an air raid shelter, I doubt it unless it has a lot of modification. With the large amount of army in the area (Chiltlee Manor was a military base until the 1980's) there was a large risk of bomb damage. The window seems original, and the walls do noty appear to be reinforced concrete so if there was bomb in the area then Tweenways would have supplied very little protection.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Ian Baker (pres. soc) (12th Apr 2011 - 21:35:24) It seems pretty certain that the cobblers building in liphook square WAS an air raid shelter in WW2, The pupils at the nearby school (now the library) would have been taken there by their teacher when an airraid was threatened.The window was most likely added in the post war era, when the building was converted by the owner Mr Luff. I understand that the builders had to work hard to cut through the thick walls.Fortunately the building doesnt seem to have been put to the test in WW2.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - gr (12th Apr 2011 - 22:27:10) The air raid shelter WAS at Dons shop there was also a search light where the bungalow by the church centre . If you speak to the older generation n Liphook they will soon tell you the facts

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - R Lock (12th Apr 2011 - 22:56:59) Tweenways (the cobler's) being an air raid shelter, was the shelter mum & dad remember it well !!!!

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Owen (12th Apr 2011 - 23:37:18) Re: Tweenways. I understand it was actually a public air-raid shelter. Wouldn't have survived a direct hit, but would have sheltered people from shrapnel, flying debris etc. Looking inside, the entrance and doorway to the workshop are offset (as you find in bunkers and pillboxes) and the walls and roof are reinforced, (I seem to recall concrete beams). Don’t believe the window is original, I think it was cut through after the war. If you are so inclined you could ask the cobbler to see his workshop - evidence of where the benches were can be seen.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Eneida (13th Apr 2011 - 00:18:15) Phelim, Since you've got this wrong twice now, may I just point out that it's the BERG estate!! I used to work for E & L Berg of Esher who built it....

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - liz (13th Apr 2011 - 07:46:53) Phelim, you sound as if you are quite new to the area. I think you will find the local people know about the various points of interest you have mentioned and many more. As someone has suggested, talk to them. A lot of work has been done locally on the history of the River Wey and local water meadows, you may also be interested in that.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Owen (13th Apr 2011 - 19:44:35) In your original post you talk about a Roman road in the Black Fox / Milland area - does this connect to the Sussex Border path in any way? I'm told the (very) old London-Portsmouth road runs along at least part of it and comes out close to the Black Fox. Are these connected?

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Phelim (14th Apr 2011 - 14:13:03) OK I got it wrong about Tween Ways - though I still have doubts as to if that was it's original purpose as my father was a builder and while the walls are very thick it DOES NOT meet the standard of building for a formal bomb shelter that I have looked at elsewhere in the country either by design or structure. Having sat in their for the cobbler while he was on holiday there is NO EVIDENCE that the walls are re-enforced. with metal as would be standard. The brickwork is thick and has an internal cavity. The area from the door into the main area would be too big (yes between the lobby and the inner space the door is quite thin but the lobby appears to be much larger than normal. Any above ground building was normally covered by earth as a secondary protection - does any one remember this being the case? While people have memories of the building being used as an air raid shelter this does not mean it was built as an air raid shelter. Now to the Berg Estate. People know this as the Berg Estate because that is who built it. But, if people bothered to read the history of Liphook (a village where I have lived nearly all my life having gone to all three schools in the community) then they would know that it's official name when built and still today is NOT the Berg Estate. Can I prove this? Yes - just go to the archives and check them out. Also, if people want I can produce photos of me as a Liphook Cub, a Liphook Scout and in the uniforms of all three schools and certificates from those schools. So sorry to those I think I got two things wrong - I only got 1 wrong. On this issue - with the Queen's Golden Jubilee coming up next year can anyone else remember Chiltlee Manor, which was at the time a military base, being opened and riding on the minature railway? I was six at the time, living in Malthouse Meadows and this made a big enough impact that I remember it. Also can anyone else remember the Library being in the building where the kebab shop is opposite HSBC?

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Phelim (14th Apr 2011 - 17:45:26) Having spoken to my mum she remembers people speaking of Tweenways as an air raid shelter. She was born in 1943 so is too young to remember using it. But I now have a big problem? If Tweenways was built as an air raid shelter why was it built as a shelter? During the war Liphook had 4 public houses in the centre of the village. There was the Royal Anchor, Tap House (now a private cottage), the Ship (what is now Lloyds TSB) and what is now the Green Dragon. In other areas the cellars of public houses were used as air raid shelters by everyone - regardless of age. All these public houses are in walking distance of the Old Liphook School (what is now the library) and the Village Hall where they had their meals. Was it a wealthy Methodist or Quaker who decided that the village needed a bomb shelter that was away from the evils of drink? Or was there something else going on in the village to do with the SOE/British Resistance that we know nothing about? Now to the issue of the Berg Estate vs Chiltley Place Estate I looked into this while I was at Bohunt. I was intrigued by the fact that there are two spellings of Chiltley in Liphook - the other being Chiltlee. We have Chiltley Lane and Chiltley Way, Chiltlee Manor and Chiltlee Close. What I discovered, with the help of Lawrence Giles, was that Chiltley Place dates back to before the time of William the Conqueror. Chiltleigh (as it was spelt) is listed in the Doomsday Book (we did the history of the area at that time as part of the 1986 anniversary project) and is listed as having a royal hunting lodge. During the reign of Elizabeth 1st this was sold off and ceased to be royal property. During the Victorian era, when the railway was built it appears that two brothers squabbled. The younger one built his manor house and used the spelling Chiltlee to distance himself from his brother at Chiltley Place. When Chiltley Way and Shepherds Way were built (named after the house that was demolished and it's then owner) people started refering to the Berg Estate as that was the name of the builders. Willow Gardens, Willow Close, Golden Fields, Chestnut Close and Ash Grove were added later explaining the sometimes confusing road layout. I have directed people such as gas engineers and even post men who are looking for Chiltley Place Estate as that was the name of the complex on official land registry records. More testers - before it was extended what was at the end of The Avenue? Where could you pick Strawberries in Liphook in the 1970s (something I remember doing)? Where did Bramshott Scout group meet? Where did the Methodists first meet in Liphook? Where was the tin church? Having lived in Liphook all my life I know but how many of my critics do?

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Paul Robinson (14th Apr 2011 - 21:04:03) For the record I can report that the Air Raid Shelter that became 'Tweenways' was one of a number of similar constructions built during World War 2 on the A3 as refuges for drivers of military lorries in convoys heading to and from the docks at Portsmouth with supplies and amunitions. In the event of enemy aircraft strafing, the lorry drivers would leave their cabs and take cover until safe. Mr Cook told me that when he wanted an aperture made in his workshop for a window it took two men the best part of a week to cut a hole in the wall with a Kango hammer. Paul Robinson

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Paul Robinson (14th Apr 2011 - 22:22:26) As one of the early residents of the Avenue in Lowesley Park I recall that the farm behind the estate was always known as 'Swinnies' being farmed by Mr Swinstead ably assisted by Agnes, who originally started work there as a Land Army Girl during the war and was still working there until the early eighties! Mr Swinstead sold vegetables from the farm and from a van door to door. Paul Robinson

Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Phelim (15th Apr 2011 - 13:25:30) Paul - thank you so much for solving the mystery of why Tweenways was built. The more digging I do the more confused I get because it still does not fit normal plans for an air raid shelter. The issue now becomes that Tweenways is probably unique. After WW2 these bunkers were destroyed (does anyone know of another one?) so it is highly likely that Tweenways is the only one standing along what was the A3. Similar shelters were probably built along other A roads and have also been destroyed. Many underground shelters are now too dangerous to enter because of lack of care - they were just abandoned. So now we need to ask should we apply to get the Tweenways building listed? My dad built the house you live in, and I used to ride around the building site on my BMX and also on the dumpster trucks (driving them once or twice). I remember walking up to Loesley arm with my brother and sisters to get eggs from "Swinnies" and remember feeling scared by Agnes.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Phelim (17th Apr 2011 - 16:36:14) Talking to Mr Cook about the building (and working out where the blast walls would be - this still poses a problem as to the design of the building) he said the building was built in 1938. Does anyone know when this building WAS built. Until September 1939 we were in a time of peace. Most air raid shelters were built in 1940 so anything pre-1939 raises serious questions of why it was built.

Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook & The Berg Estate - Sue Hodgkinson (4th Feb 2015 - 20:58:44) In 1964/5 I worked for an Estate Agent called Clarke, Gammon & Emerys (head office in Guildford) and the office in Liphook was based in the wooden building opposite the Green Dragon. This Estate Agent was selling these new prestigous houses being built by the Berg Company and at the time housing in the area generally sold at about £3000. These new houses started at about £7000 and everyone was stunned and thought they would never sell at that price. The houses were being sold "off plan"so I never had a chance to view any of them myself. Always referred to as The Berg Estate.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Terry (5th Feb 2015 - 01:01:40) Unless my aged memory is playing tricks with me, I believe there was also a shelter the same design as Tweenways, on the Midhurst Road, or what we always called 'the back lane', it was sited next to the old fire station which was where the entrance to Shipley Court now is and immediately opposite one of the entrances into the OSU. The spelling of place names, property names and surnames have changed often over the years, Bramshott for example, has been spelt in at least sixty two different ways. My father was born in 6 Losely Cottages, not Lowesley Cottages! In 1901 Chiltelee Manor still encompassed the whole of Liphook, excluding only the area covered by Rogate Bohunt Manor. Chiltlelee stretched approximately from the Deer's Hut at Grigg's Green to Lake House on the Haslemere Road to roughly Stanley Farm off of Highfield Lane or what was the old London Road via Haslemere, across to the edge of Folly Pond, at what is now Forest Mere. Some forty-five years after the railway went through, it was still called Chiltelee Manor on both sides of the railway. Incidentally the old London Road which went via Haslemere continued from Highfield Lane across the Midhurst Road and along past North Lodge to join the old London to Portsmouth Road (A3) The 1st Bramshott Scout Troop “Thesiger's Own”, had their own Scout Hut, given to them by Bishop Crossley, it was originally his garden study and was re-erected on the extreme left hand corner of the site which is now occupied by the Church Centre on the Portsmouth Road, the ground rent was one shilling a year IN PERPETUITY! During the war a Search Light Battery was situated Immediately behind the Scout Hut. Prior to going to Bramshott School I attended Liphook Girls and Infants School until the age of 7, some of our lessons were held in the "Tin Church", my grandmother lived a very short walk away and I used to go with her to clean and tidy it. Here's a question, who knows where in Liphook was “The Loampits” ?

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Terry (5th Feb 2015 - 12:16:26) Further reference to the manor of Chiltlee and it's modern day spelling, Chiltlee v Chiltley, it is incidentally, spelt 'Ciltelei' in the Domesday (not Doomsday) Book, and not 'Chiltleigh'. Chiltlee manor house, off the Haslemere road, has a footprint considerably older than the comparatively modern property once named Chiltley Place which was demolished when the Chiltley Estate was begun. Note that Chiltlee Manor house has the spelling most closely associated with the ancient manor and not the later corruption of Chiltley. The difference in the spelling is in all probability quite simply one of transcription and nothing more. The only family “squabble” that I am aware of which involves the owners of the manor in recent years concerns the Butler family. One time owner of the manor of Chiltelee and a large number of other estates, John Butler, died in 1775, his immediate successors adequately managed the estates until John's grandson's, John and James eventually inherited, John was left all the family holdings except the manors of Chiltelee and Empshott which were left to the younger brother James. John was a spendthrift and fairly rapidly lost all of his holdings and was forced to leave the country, to spend the remainder of his life in the Channel Islands. James continued to run his own Chiltelee and Empshott estates successfully until eventually he involved himself in developing and farming merino sheep which resulted in massive financial loss, to the extent that Chiltelee had to be sold in 1830 for £10,000 this was almost a generation before the railway was to cut through a portion of the estate and some years after his brother was exiled.

Re: Archaeology around Bramshott and Liphook - Terry (5th Feb 2015 - 18:16:59) Re Chiltelee and further to the above. The family of Sir John Hawkeshaw owned Chiltelee manor estate during and after the period in which the railway was constructed (1854-59) They were also responsible for constructing what is now the Midhurst road between Haslemere Road and Newtown in lieu of closing a public footpath which ran across the Chiltelee manor estate, the footpath had been used in general as a short cut from the Haslemere road to the Wheatsheaf and White Hart Inns. It is not difficult to imagine how much busier the footpath would have become with the advent of the railway and the new dwellings which were springing up to become Newtown. In 1869 Mrs Mary Robb purchased all of the Chiltelee estate on the Southern side of the railway and built her new home, Chiltelee Place, (note, not Chiltley Place) on the site in 1880. In 1939 Chiltlee Park, by this time the spelling had altered slightly to how we know it today, was requisitioned for use as the OSU depot, it is reasonable to assume that the bomb shelters were constructed around the same time as the OSU buildings. The park is reputed to have had one of the finest cricket pitches in the country. I previously mentioned the change in the spelling of Losely, off the Headley road, to Lowesley. Losely or Loseley is a name which locally has remained virtually unaltered for hundreds of years, it originally denoted a 'sheepfold' and was certainly in use during the 1500s and probably earlier, the name can be found in other areas, for example between Godalming and Guildford. Why on Earth change it from the original ancient spelling?

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