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Conservative Party - jo (13th Jan 2018  18:12:19) I have Noticed many people vote for the Conservative Party in East Hants and I wonder why ? With the cuts to public services that have effected this area and The hard benefit policy's being put into place that are leaving people with disability and mental health issues hard why keep voting for them ? I know some older lady living with MS and mental health issues and cannot receive PIP due to the point system and the local children centre's closing that leave young children and mothers and fathers without support and reduces the benefit from the children . I have not seen a single police officer patrolling Liphook in 4 years apart from carnival night ? But the Conservative party can give themselfs a pay rise for MP's ,and pay for lovely Holiday , and the amount they claim back on expenses from our tax money is day light Robbery ???

Re: Conservative Party - Sdr (13th Jan 2018  22:03:24) There is no such thing as a good political party when it comes to voting I go for who will tax me the least so I keep more of the money I earn. Conservatives at present are the ones who have beniffited me the most. Since they have been in power I’ve paid less tax and found my earnings have gone up. Due to this I’ve been able to buy my own house, buy myself a nice car that I enjoy, take decent holidays on a yearly basis and actually be able to treat my family to nicer things. If this was labour in power I’d keep less of what I earn, not be able to get a mortgage as interest rates would go stupid and still living in a 1 bed rented flat in aldershot. I work hard for what I earn travel 20k miles a year to earn it and I’m not about to give up more of my hard earned money without a fight

Re: Conservative Party - Bert (13th Jan 2018  22:15:21) It’s like Chelsea supporters they think they are better than everyone else. Part of voting Conservatives is the feeling “your better than everyone else, you have made it” in addition Conservative voters are easily swayed by the communist argument in that labour is akin to being Joseph Stalin, Selfservative voters always fall for that one even though their own party hurt them harder than many others. When they see the Conservatives they salute them like it’s a Rolls Royce being driven by Churchill but they don’t dig too deep, like digging into the official name, The Conservative and Unionist party…. Unionist…. DUP the bunch of hateful idiots in the north of Ireland whom have more money spent on them than any other part of the UK. It’s all the same thing regardless of party, politics in the UK is a laughing stock, 1 level up from North Korea, on the same level as Russia and Trump and many levels below the rest of the world and France…. Sorry it’s just the way it is, been laughed and mocked at for decades, the specific thing we get laughed at is how we see it so differently and hence the empire jokes… living in the past and so massively unimportant now

Re: Conservative Party - Ian (13th Jan 2018  22:19:39) This Conservative government are one of the worst ever BUT do you really think that terrorist supporting, communist influenced Corbyn with his outdated leftist policy's could do any better? Talk about jumping out of the frying and into the fire! And the pathetic Liberals are just as delusional. Our political classes are appalling, we need a fundamental forward moving change in our politics, not a return to failed socialist and Thatcherite philosophy but something new, vibrant and relevant to motivate the people of this country out of the mess that Blair, Brown, Cameron (with Clegg) and May have dumped us in.

Re: Conservative Party - The Joy (14th Jan 2018  12:30:59) None of them are fit for purpose, it's a carousell of plonkers out of touch with normal people.

Re: Conservative Party - Katie (14th Jan 2018  20:20:07) I don't agree that all politicians are as bad as the current cabinet or the previous Tory government. They really are absolutely ruthless when it comes to dealing with ordinary citizens. I genuinely think that they are deliberately and permanently damaging all of our public services, emergency services, schools and seriously harming people's mental and physical health and in particular the health of children. We need a change.

Re: Conservative Party - Ian (14th Jan 2018  22:34:33) Katie, whilst I would not disagree that this government is damaging the country in many ways, I would be intrigued to understand your reasoning why they would be deliberately trying to wreck the country? I think they are indeed inept, incapable and somewhat dim but I still cannot see why you think they are deliberately seeking to damage the country? What would be their motive? Please elaborate/substantiate your curious opinion.

Re: Conservative Party - Katie (15th Jan 2018  11:13:37) For example... People are dying prematurely whilst waiting for hours on trolleys in A&E corridors but Jeremy Hunt is more interested in saving his job. He is the longest serving Health Minister of all time. The buck stops with him. He has been happy for years to blame NHS staff for inefficiency rather than admit the problem is chronic underfunding. He has switched tack now that the situation has reached breaking point and admits the NHS needs more money, but again only to save his job. Theresa May won't sack him because of her weak position, so essentially both of them are more interested in preserving their own careers and power than preventing the enormous suffering and premature deaths of ordinary people. David Cameron arrogantly went ahead with the referendum in order to preserve his position, despite believing that Brexit would hugely damage the UK economy. He gambled with our nation's finances all the while knowing that as a multimillionaire he was not risking his own family's future. The DWP ploughed ahead with Universal Credit and with merciless Work Capability Assessments, despite knowing that they were causing people serious harm and in some cases lead to their deaths. They were eventually forced to make changes to both after huge amounts of pressure from other parties and from the media. Consistently, self preservation, a sense of entitlement and viewing the devastation of people's lives as collateral damage seems to be their MO. I think they would bring back workhouses if they thought they would get away with it.

Re: Conservative Party - Gray (15th Jan 2018  11:33:11) Kate - I suspect "Consistently, self preservation, a sense of entitlement and viewing the devastation of people's lives as collateral damage seems to be their MO" would apply to labour politicians equally well. See Blair and the Human Rights legislation for example. The problem for the UK has been highlighted elsewhere in this thread and is down to the dearth of quality politicians across the board and for all the parties. Mrs May is simply a dreadful woman but then Jeremy Corbyn is an untrustworthy, terrorist sympathising hyoicrite, conning the vote out of students recently with a promise to remove tuition fees that he simply had no intention of fulfulling. Note it was also Labour who bought in tuition fees in the first place. I could go on. We need better politicians - preferably not career politicans as well, people who understand the way we have to live and are not part of their own out-of-touch political / ruling class.

Re: Conservative Party - James (15th Jan 2018  12:57:09) The national debt is currently £19,678,679,000,000, you can only spend on public services what the economy earns, or you have to borrow from future generations to pay back. The NHS spent an estimated £100 Million pounds over the past 5 years on translation services, perhaps we should stop borrowing money to treat people that can't speak English.

Re: Conservative Party - Steve (15th Jan 2018  14:17:45) There is plenty of money for everything!!! More money for NHS, school and everything else just stop foreign aid charity starts at home and it's our money keep it in our country!!!!

Re: Conservative Party - Jack (15th Jan 2018  15:37:25) Whilst James is right in saying that you can only spend what the economy earns, it is necessary to prioritise what we spend our money on. Might I suggest that the £1,000,000,000 paid by the Conservative government as a bung to Northern Ireland in return for a deal with the DUP to keep the Conservatives in power at any cost somewhat pales the cost of translation services into insignificance. To the minds of many, this terrible Conservative government simply prioritises to suit its own grip on power. A further £1bn to the NHS would have made a substantial difference. We have a Conservative government who are beholden to their hard-right wing and a Labour opposition led from the far left. Neither are in any way ideal (although the cost of Labour policies were set out in their manifesto in last year's election, unlike the Conservatives). In the recent past, there were politicians rooted in the centre-ground. They worked on the basis that capitalism and self-advancement were the way forward, but that a civilised society also tempers this with a social conscience (helping the elderly, infirm, or, otherwise in need, investing in education etc). Parties recognised that the UK was better-off when we engaged internationally. This was the approach of New Labour, the Lib Dems and, to a certain extent, Cameron in his pre-PM days. Debt was not out of control (until the latter Labour term) and everyone benefited. It is known elsewhere as social democracy (cue sniping about the SDP). It wasn't perfect, but I hanker for this approach now. The chances of a new party breaking through (in the style of Macron's En Marche in France) seem remote and the only party in the centre-ground, the Lib Dems, seem to be unelectable (at national level) at the moment. I see that the new Renew party, run by ordinary people, is getting going. I'm not in any way affiliated to them, but the idea is attractive, to me at least: renewbritain.org. Quite honestly, it wouldn't need to do much to be fairer and more responsible than what we have now. The solution to most political issues is usually in the middle-ground. How unfortunate we are that UK political debate is now about the extremes just shouting at each other.

Re: Conservative Party - The Joy (15th Jan 2018  19:29:46) Just had a look at renew, after seeing the words stopping Brexit. I had to laugh and discontinue looking.

Re: Conservative Party - Ginny Stacpoole (15th Jan 2018  21:17:11) But RenewBritain apparently does not like democracy and wants to suppress the wishes of the voters who turned out in the greatest numbers ever.

Re: Conservative Party - Helen (15th Jan 2018  22:31:23) I do not understand how there is plenty of money? Look ay how much is owed. There will be a huge amount payable to leave the EU. Do not forget our debt we are still paying off a first world war debt from 100 years ago. We will now bail out the Carillion workers and pensions.

Re: Conservative Party - Jonathan (16th Jan 2018  06:42:28) If they run with a set of policies and get elected, then that’s still democracy. You don’t have to vote for them if you don’t agree with them. That’s how democracy works.

Re: Conservative Party - Jack (16th Jan 2018  06:47:03) But Brexiteers don't like democracy and apparently want to deny the UK electorate a say on the deal we reach with the EU. Well, except for Nigel, it seems. Slippery concept, democracy

Re: Conservative Party - Keith Budden (16th Jan 2018  13:23:16) But I don't see how you can give the people a vote on the exit deal. If you've already got lots of people saying they didn't understand what they were voting for in the last referendum, when it really was a simple in/out choice, they sure as hell aren't going to understand an exit agreement which will likely run into hundreds, if not thousands, of pages. And what if there was a vote, the British public say No we don't like that agreement, go back and negotiate again, and when we try that the EU say, no, sorry, that was our best offer --- we end up on WTO rules and no one wins. I wish people would stop dragging up the old debate (and before you ask, yes I voted (and indeed campaigned) to remain in the EU, but hey ho, we lost -- the British people voted to leave the EU, and that is what should, indeed what must, happen. Yes remain didn't win the vote, but you know what, get over it - that's the way democracy works, some you win, some you lose - what it isn't is a best of 3....

Re: Conservative Party - Penny (16th Jan 2018  15:41:02) It is rubbish to say that Brexiteers don’t like democracy. The question that was asked in the referendum was do we want to stay in the EU or leave and the people of Great Britain and Northern Ireland voted to leave. There was never any suggestion that if the majority of people voted to leave then there should be another vote on the deal that was subsequently agreed. More importantly if Parliament do decide that the people should vote of the eventual deal and the people vote against it then the UK will walk away with No Deal. The best way forward is to work with what we have, get the best deal possible and move on. There should be proper and healthy debate on both sides but not this pointless bickering and point scoring which is happening at the moment. The longer this continues the more likely we are going to get a bad deal which will force to UK to walk. Is that what anyone really wants?

Re: Conservative Party - Jack (16th Jan 2018  18:19:51) My point about Brexiteers not liking democracy was a tongue-in-check reference to the poster who claimed that the Renew party does not like democracy. Neither makes sense. Democracy can only ever be imperfect. We will have to agree to disagree about a referendum on the final deal. Cameron and his majority in parliament naively put the first referendum on an advisory basis, meaning that there was no minimum threshold win for such a momentous change. What was the point when he intended to bind us to the result whatever? Conservative incompetence and complacency. As such, we are lumbered with a catastrophic economic hit after the transition period (£40bn to exit, a £59bn hole in the public finances (per the Chancellor) and untold costs for new bureaucracy to replace EU regulatory functions, border staff etc.).That is before a hit to tax revenues, overseas investment and jobs lost if we don't achieve a good free-trade deal and how much will we need to contribute to get it? It is only reasonable, in my view, that people have a chance to change their minds when the facts change - ie leaving the single market, no free-trade deal on services, no £350 million for the NHS etc. It may also incentivise our friends across the channel to improve the terms of our membership. From what I see in the media, the EU leadership have, so far, actually been quite patient with an indecisive and gaffe-prone UK negotiating team. Still, the PM has proudly declared that we are getting blue passports (which we could have had anyway)... Sorry, OP - I seem to have turned your thread into another Brexit one...

Re: Conservative Party - Penny (18th Jan 2018  13:33:26) Cameron decided on a referendum because he foolishly said that if the EU were not prepared to negotiate better terms with the UK the people of the UK would have the opportunity to vote as to whether we stay in the EU or leave. He came back from negotiations with absolutely nothing and therefore the referendum went ahead. I don’t think either Cameron or Osborne thought that the majority would vote to leave but they did and Cameron resigned. I do not agree with Jack’s comment that and I quote “the EU leadership have, so far, actually been quite patient.” I don’t think they have been patient at all. They have been unhelpful and obstructive and will make it as difficult and as uncomfortable as possible for the UK to leave for two very good reasons. 1 They want to punish us and 2 They do not want any other country following suit. It is a “cat and mouse game” and the EU is the cat. With regard to the endless criticism of Mrs May and the Conservative Government and their handling of negotiations I would say this. I don’t think Corbyn and the Labour Party could do any better, in fact they would probably do a lot worse and the more people who are generally misinformed moan and complain, the more the EU bureaucrats rub their hands in glee. I don’t think that the people who want a vote on the final deal either by another referendum or parliament understand that if the vote is “no” to the final deal, the UK will leave the EU anyway on 29 March, 2019 with no deal. There will be no further negotiations and no going back. In conclusion I realise that the last posts have wandered away from the Thread, so to return to that, in defence of the Conservative Party and I am not saying they are perfect, far from it, what is the alternative? Corbyn and the Lib Dems do not fill me with confidence and don’t forget it is easy to criticise and not be held accountable when you are in opposition. You have absolutely nothing to lose.

Re: Conservative Party - Jack (18th Jan 2018  18:06:48) I don't get the impression that the EU negotiators are trying to 'punish' us. I don't believe they are "rubbing their hands in glee'" about any of this. The right-wing UK press will assert that they are, but they will blame the EU for anything under the sun - no wonder people are "misinformed". I'm sure its true that the 27 don't want anyone else to leave, but is that really unexpected? They are taking realistic negotiating positions; it isn't some malevolent EU-plot to trip us up. Brexit campaigners and newspapers, before the referendum, told us that that the EU would be falling at our feet to get to a deal, so that they could sell us BMWs and champagne. I suspect it is something of a shock to them that realise that this was just fantasy. Just because the EU negotiators are not rolling-over on our every demand does not mean they are punishing us. Negotiation is compromise and give-and-take. If we had a referendum between leaving with the agreed deal or rescinding Article 50, then we wouldn't crash-out on WTO terms either way. I honestly don't think we'll be given that opportunity though - the Conservative hard right just won't allow it. Many have openly said they would be happy for us to leave without a deal. Penny, your point about alternatives is right. There is no current palatable alternative. This is the worst government I can recall and I'm sure a Momentum-led Labour Party won't be any better. But that isn't a reason to accept the status quo. We can campaign for something better, something more centrist, whether that is supporting Labour and Conservative moderates as party members, or supporting newer parties - if UKIP can achieve their policy objectives without even being in parliament, if Macron can win in France with a start-up party, then I don't see why any (well-organised and funded) new party can't exert influence.

Re: Conservative Party - J (18th Jan 2018  20:18:09) Jack for PM!

Re: Conservative Party - Rob (19th Jan 2018  01:40:16) The unionist part has nothing to do with the DUP, it is to do with a belief in the union of the United Kingdom. May and co are pretty terrible, but the is a good argument that she isn't really a"Conservative" at all, but more of a European style Christian Democrat. She is very centerist as was Cameron in government. What we need, add identified by many on her is a shake up, Thatcher for all the demonisation of her wasn't a conservative at all really. She was a Whig a moderniser, a believer in fee trade and the ability of people to look after themselves. Probably not lost. It send that everyone these days expects the government to look after them. Personally I just wish they'd stop interfering and get in with their primary job of ensuring the safety and security of its citizens.

Re: Conservative Party - John (19th Jan 2018  15:33:00) “The unionist part has nothing to do with the DUP, it is to do with a belief in the union“ Rob, the DUP are Unionists, it’s a fundamental part of the origin of both parties, so important to them they use the word in both their names, and it’s the core belief of the DUP. Yes there different parties with different views but both the DUP and the Conservatives come from the same stock and bear much more similarities than most other parties in the UK. Accepted the DUP are extreme, both the conservatives are in bed with them both historically and currently (£2 Billion) I like the comments re North Korea, it wouldn’t surprise me that the UK’s political setup isn’t an international laughing stock as were about to regress back into the 1970’s

Re: Conservative Party - Penny (20th Jan 2018  13:26:59) This certainly isn’t the worst government I can recall. What about the Blair government and Tony Blair’s evil-doings, to say nothing of taking us into an illegal war with Iraq and leaving it in a far worse state than it was before. History will show that he was the worst and most hypocritical so called Socialist Prime Minister of all time – accumulating a vast fortune and buying countless mansions all over the country. Talk about not practicing what you preach!! I do agree with Rob when he says that some people do expect the government to do everything for us – what about more people taking responsibility for themselves and before I am shot down in flames, I am not talking about the vulnerable in our society. Of course they must be cared for and supported, but there are a great many people out there who should be taking responsibility for their actions and behaviour and don’t!

Re: Conservative Party - Jack (20th Jan 2018  17:05:16) I'm no apologist for war-monger Blair, and Penny I believe you are right about Iraq. But other "evil doings"?! The state has never done anything for me and neither do I want it to do everything. I run my own business and make my own luck. I do want it, however, to provide prompt medical care when I am sick and ensure there are police nearby when I am a victim of crime. I want them to make decisions which keep our economy sound and resilient in a global marketplace. I want a well funded military to protect us. I want my childrens' school to have sufficient funding to give them a good education and the best chance to make it for themselves. I pay my National Insurance and income tax. Depressingly, however, I see all of these essential public services deteriorating while dogmatic obsessives in the Conservative Party lead Mrs May by the nose to be the first civilised country ever to attempt to negotiate a worse trade deal than the one it already has and a incur a massive administrative burden. For what? Some vague notion of sovereignty and a blue passport. Against weak opposition, the Conservative Party didn't have the leadership and vision to win outright an election we didn't need (and which cost us £140,000,000). I want my government to put my country's interests above those of its own party. This is easily the worst government in my adult life.

Re: Conservative Party - Katie (20th Jan 2018  18:51:19) I completely agree with Jack's last post.

Re: Conservative Party - wolfie smith (20th Jan 2018  21:29:46) saddam hussein used poison gas on somewhere between 80,000 and 120,000 people in faluja in Iraq. what would you have done with a guy like that penny? hit him with a major leafleting campaign? ask him to go the hague to face charges? i am bored by the anti war lobby apologising for dictators and murderers tony blair did the right thing in supporting bush it wasn't blairs fault that cheney was clueless about the aftermath in iraq 1997 labour government is the best government i have ever lived under

Re: Conservative Party - Pete (20th Jan 2018  22:47:12) Hear hear, the Tony Blair Government was the last swashbuckling get things done government we had, it’s a pity that half the voting dinosaurs left in this country still fall for the Labour = Communism trick. Yes there wasn’t weapons of mass destruction, but who gives a F***, saddam was a monster and needed his arse kicked and despite the fall out many many other despots like him have rained in the level of horror they think they can get away with. Tony Blair for all his failures was the last one whom went out in the world and stuck his boot into it and made us proud. We are on a massive down slope now, one that’s going to take 10-15 years for us to hit the bottom, all because we sh*t in the next of our international mates re brexit.

Re: Conservative Party - ian (21st Jan 2018  09:22:29) History will show that Blair will be viewed in the same league as Lyndon B Johnson and Nixon. I'm no supporter of Labour but at least Harold Wilson stood up to USA and refused to let us get dragged into Vietnam, which is just what Blair should have done with Bush. Cameron was just as bad with Libya

Re: Conservative Party - The Joy (21st Jan 2018  09:49:47) Blair and Bush both successfully managed to cause the present vacuum for ISIS etc to take control. Pity no one listened to David Kelly, strange what unfortunately happened to him when he spoke out?

Re: Conservative Party - helen (21st Jan 2018  12:12:40) Blair and Bush did not go into Iraq to help the Kurdish People, that atrocity had been going on for decades, Claire Short begged Tony Blair for many years to do something, it was control of thr OIL which Bush wanted. The Iraqi people were collateral damage, and there was eveidence to show that Tony B Liar knew there was no firm evidence of the weapons of mass desctruction, let alone that they could succesfully reach Britain from the Middle East.

Re: Conservative Party - Jason (21st Jan 2018  17:12:41) Blair, Brown, Cameron, May all them dropped bombs on other countries. You can postulate your ISIS vacuums all you want, Britain drops bombs and sides with countries that drop bombs. Labour or Conservatives the results are the same, the fundamentals will alway want to hurt us. Blair & Cameron at least killed a**holes

Re: Conservative Party - Penny (21st Jan 2018  21:47:34) Jack - "evil doings". The Joy posted exactly my thoughts and I say 3 words to you and all the other misguided and misinformed people who think that Tony Blair did anything but good for the UK and they are "Dr David Kelly". A truly good and honest man who was reported to have committed suicide and yet 4 doctors have said that he could not have inflicted such wounds on himself and certainly could not have died from them.. Read the reports - open your eyes. Dr David Kelly spoke out -he was a man of great integrity and his family were frightened into silence. Tony Blair wouldn't understand the word integrity if he met it face to face - he and his government were in power when Dr David Kelly died.

Re: Conservative Party - Jack (22nd Jan 2018  12:59:00) "I say 3 words to you and all the other misguided and misinformed people who think that Tony Blair did anything but good for the UK". If you read my post Penny, you will see that I said I was not an apologist for Blair and that I agreed with you on Iraq. Dr David Kelly's treatment was a travesty (although, I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory that his death was state-sponsored murder). I'm no fan-boy of Labour, although I do agree with Wolfie Smith that the first Blair Government of 1997 was the most progressive in recent times and you only have to look at the increases in poverty and homelessness since the Conservatives took power to recognise the good that had been done in this area previously. From what I know of the Kosovo intervention, his (and Bill Clinton's) actions saved thousands of innocent men, women and children from humanitarian catastrophe, from death, barbarism and ethnic cleansing by a brutal dictatorship. I don't think Blair was evil, but he did make major errors in his later years, which had bad consequences. For the record, however, I'm not a fan of either major party, as my posts testify. I get very concerned about accusations of people being "misguided and misinformed". It shows the polarisation of our political debate and, I think, makes the case for a pushing for a more centrist and consensus approach. Since the referendum result, I have made an effort to read not only newspapers that backed remain and my world-view, but also to delve into the editorials of those which have a completely different opinion. It is an unpleasant, extreme world where judges are accused of being "enemies of the people" for upholding the letter of the law and MP's, worried about our economy post-Brexit, are accused of being traitors and their addresses published. It is a philosophy where the hard-right is right and if you disagree you are stupid, traitorous and/or unpatriotic. I read a warped view of what I think constitutes 'common-sense' and I despair at the conspiracy-theories. Nevertheless, I do now have more of an insight in the views of others, even if I disagree with what I read. It really hammers home how split the UK population is; how people see the same things in spectacularly different ways - I guess more so than at any other time since WW2. I would urge everyone, whatever your political view, to read more widely than their usual sources and to step out of their 'echo-chambers'. Perhaps then we may start to reconcile our divided country.

Re: Conservative Party - Mrs (22nd Jan 2018  17:25:02) Well said Jack

Re: Conservative Party - The Joy (23rd Jan 2018  17:38:46) For all the good in the world that Blair may have done is heavily out weighed by Iraq

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