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Postings on Talkback - Stephen (31st Dec 2009 - 08:49:30) I have read some of the postings on this site and I think it is disgraceful how posters are treating each other. When people post they seem to be attacked by a small group of people and some of the language is undignified. It is rather like swimming in shark infested custard. I am all for freedom of speech but this has to be tempered. I do not think that it does the image of this site any good at all. If I was thinking of moving to Liphook I would think twice if anybody pointed me to the talkback on this website. I am not sure that the editor should be involving himself so much in postings. He appears to be linked to many posters and I am not sure this is very professional,esecially if he has a personal, social, or work connections with them. You also have to question why people have submitted posts which have not been put up, when others have, and are far worse than those that have not.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Editor (31st Dec 2009 - 09:09:22) Hi Stephen What you say is very true, people seem to attack rather than empathize. However, I have no associations with any of the posters, and would be more than happy to pass the responsibility of moderating this forum to someone else who has the time to monitor it several times every day. So, if you feel you could handle the situation better, let me know. Alan

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (31st Dec 2009 - 09:53:34) Thank you for your reply. I welcome the fact that you have no involvement with posters in any way. The word manipulation had come to mind. It certainly looked that way to me - perhaps you should always use "Editor" and not use "Alan" unless "Alan" is not you and that would be more professional anyway! People have not had posts put up on this site as they themselves have stated. I am not sure what the definition of "moderation" is. Nobody would know posts have been "moderated" unless they had sent a post which had been "moderated". If they now how other posts are being "moderated" then that would not be right. As example, I note that Mr Robinson thanked you for your moderation so how would he know about your moderation? One other thing -I hope that people can use this site with confidence knowing that their computer and other details are not being searched for over the internet by the editorial team. You are welcome to continue your good work with this site and I have a job anyway. I would not be interested at all but thank you for the offer. I think that the majority of the time talback has a very negative effect to this website, to the village, and to individuals and that is a shame.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Editor (31st Dec 2009 - 10:26:44) Hi Stephen I too have a 'proper' job - www.liphook.co.uk is just a 'hobby' site run in my spare time. So the the fact that you are already employed is in no way prevents you from doing this work. As the 'editor' I ensure that no 'porn' type of posts get visible to our readers (OK - I missed 2 a few months ago !). I try to allow lively debate about local issues, it is difficult to decide a which point a post should not be accepted. I cannot 'edit' any dubious posts at all, as this could make me legally liable. So, some posts do not get accepted. I do some correction of spelling on posts, when I notice them. If the general feeling of the readers of www.liphook.co.uk is that TalkBack should be removed, I'd be very happy to comply. Alan

Re: Postings on Talkback - Editor (31st Dec 2009 - 10:29:27) Stephen, I'm not sure what you mean by your statement "I hope that people can use this site with confidence knowing that their computer and other details are not being searched for over the internet by the editorial team." Can you explain your concerns further ? Alan

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (31st Dec 2009 - 10:57:55) It was a posting about the posting of threads on talkback. It was all about somebody supposedly pretending to be someone else and you gave details of computer settings on talkback post. I do not know where you got them from, but it has the feel of big brother is watching you. I am not sure that you should be doing that sort of thing as the Editor. And by the way, where is my reply to the posting I made about t mobile earlier today? I was talking about buying a flip phone for my wife and cannot see how that would need moderation.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Paul Robinson (31st Dec 2009 - 11:11:28) In posting the compliments of the season to the editor of this web site I wished to acknowledge the work done over the year by one who, although unknown to me, I appreciate does a sterling job in managing and editing this site. I have from time to time contributed threads which have elicited lively debate and focussed village attention on some of the best things that the village has to offer e.g. Liphook in Bloom and, unfortunately, the worst e.g. our Parish Council. I too regret that some posters choose to use intemperate language and personal abuse from the relative anonymity of an assumed identity or nick name. If you really feel strongly about something then at least have the guts to use your correct name. Happy New Year to all here Paul Robinson

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (31st Dec 2009 - 11:14:40) Nobody has suggested that talkback should be removed and I certainly haven't and wouldn't. You raised it, a classic example of what I have been talking about. I think you have sown a seed in peoples minds which you did not need to do. I missed the "porn", and you missed my spelling mistake! Happy New Year.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Dawn Hoskins (31st Dec 2009 - 11:39:26) Stephen I do not see this site as a negative. There is so much variety in the posts that all topics are covered. People ask villagers to help them find their lost cats, engagement rings etc and also let people know when things are found like wallets etc. Events are discussed such as Gig in The Garden, Carnival and calls for helpers put out e.g. for the Bloomers. Just look at the outcome when the village got together to complain about their mobile phones not having signal. It unites people. The huge variety of posts is fantastic and makes you feel very connected to the village. It is sadly true in life as well as on-line, that some people are unnecessarily aggressive, but it is up to us to point that out to them isn’t it? If regular posters piped up and told people off for using unacceptable language or threats etc then the people spouting it would be shamed into correcting their behaviour. Peer pressure. Also, the issue about ISP addresses should not be an issue to honest contributors. If you are using a false name in order to attack someone anonymously but using the same networked computer as an ‘apparent’ pillar of the community – then that is news in itself surely? – we should definitely get to know about it and the editor was quite right in his decision to publish the two ISP addresses and expose the false identity of the ‘ringers’. I do hope that you (and others) will continue to read and contribute to this site and not be put off by ‘cyber bullies’

Re: Postings on Talkback - Editor (31st Dec 2009 - 11:54:54) Stephen - reference your 'flip-phone' post. Yes, it was 'moderated' - it really had no relevence to the T-mobile thread and I felt that a quick 'google' search on your part would have been more appropriate. Google search - flip phone Alan

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (31st Dec 2009 - 12:55:30) Dawn I agree with you that this site enables connectivity for people in the village which is excellent. Talkback is different. There are some very useful and valuable contribitions from many people on talkback which are welcomed and appreciated. My observation is that there are a small group of people who as I said in my earlier post are like sharks circling waiting to attack anybody that posts on this site. I am sorry to have to say that I think that you are one of those types of posters. It puts me off making a contibution. You seem to be working aginst rather than drawing together. You do not normally have anything good to say about anything or anybody and you posts appear to be very rude, aggressive and vitriolic. You seem to know everything about everybody but I am doubtful over the pearls of your wisdom and knowledge. I am bored with your continual rants which do nothing for the cohesiveness of this village. I am not put off by cyber bullies whatever they might be, but I am completely put off by many of your posts. Sorry, but I am being honest with you. Having looked over the posts on this site, I will not be voting for you again if you stand for election as I would not want you representing me. Perhaps you might see your way to more friendly postings in 2010 for the good of everyone.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (31st Dec 2009 - 14:17:42) Dawn I forgot to say that if the use of an ISP address by two people or whatever happended is news, then I am definitely not on the same planet as you or the editor. I am not in the slightest bit interested or worried about that and could not care less. Surely what is wanted is people particpating however they want to, as long as they are civil to each other and hopefully add something to the debate. If they do not then that does not matter either. In reality there are very few people actually debating issues on this site. A lot of postings are indviduals slagging off each other, other people or groups like the local council which I think is pointless and resolves nothing at all. I did not know or understand that talkback was aimed at distributing news. There is a Local News area for that. I think we need to have some perspective. It is a local forum according to the editor. This is Liphook not London, and not Fleet Street or Canary Wharf. If talkback is aiming to distribute news then perhaps its content needs editing and not moderating whatever that means.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Eneida (31st Dec 2009 - 19:05:35) Dear Stephen, If Dawn Hoskins has put you off posting on Talkback, as you claim in your post, she's (sadly) done a very bad job of it ;) ....2 threads and I've lost count of how many posts in the last 24 hours!!!! LOL

Re: Postings on Talkback - Sue W (31st Dec 2009 - 19:20:28) Stephen OMG someone has hit the nail on the head!! I do not participate much,anymore, for a lot of the reasons you say - it seems to do more harm than good. Having heard some comments from people who have had the wrath of certain posters(and been on the receiving end) - understands the danger of 'speaking out'. Behind every business, council, organisation etc there are real people, with real feelings - trying to do their best in sometimes difficult situations or just earning a living or asking questions of bodies that should be accountable to the general public- Its far too easy for anyone to sit at keyboards and bash people down - most would be too fearful to be open and tell them to their face. (Did not comment further - as it probably would have been modified) There are some genuine links to some posters and the editor. Ms Hoskins has been the sites legal adviser for some time, and she worked on the events page. I do have correspondance that backs this up - some threads have been 'run past' Ms hoskins before being posted, not all for legal content, but some of the Parish Clerk ones had been sent to Dawn to see if she wanted them posted!! Probably in the poo now for making this comment.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Phil (1st Jan 2010 - 13:39:01) Stephen I read your posts on this thread with objective interest. I believe you should be (genuinely) congratulated for having made your points in such a calm, structured way. Keep it up! Best wishes, Phil

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (1st Jan 2010 - 19:36:46) Sue W and Phil Thank you for your comments and views. It does concern me greatly if what Sue W said is true then the Editor and Dawn Hoskins and possibly others have had a connection and what the editor said in response to my earlier post is incorrect. If Dawn Hoskins has been providing legal advice to the Editor and posts are being checked for legal content then I think we should all be told about this so we are all clear about the system that is in place. Perhaps this is what is meant by "moderation"? I am sure the Editor and Mrs Hoskins would be able to explain. I am bit surprised that nobody has questioned the legal side of some of the posts, and thinking about it,some of Dawn Hoskins posts are really bad. I am no solicitor, but from one of her posts she has had some training but she does not appear to have qualified or that is how I read it. The whole thing is questionable and a little suspicious. I would hate talkback to swallow itself down its own plughole because as I have said previously I think that tallback has a worthwhile part to play in village life. It is sad that some posters continue to use it the way they are and not for the good of us all. I am sure we can all play a part in helping to tidy up the act and maximise the use of talkback as a worthwhile village forum.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (1st Jan 2010 - 20:01:30) Eneida Dawn Hoskins does put me off because of the expectation of a long ranting reply, a feeling of being talked down to, and being treated with little dignity or respect and that her knowledge is superior to everyone elses and is unquestionably correct. Certainly that is what can be seen on the other threads she has contributed to. But I will post because I wish to have my say in a pleasant and civil way on this forum and would like to see it used more to connect people and produce some more postive outcomes. This, I think, accords with the views of two other particpants on talkback. But I respect what you have to say and I hope that I have given you a satisfactory explanation.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Editor (2nd Jan 2010 - 12:06:32) Hi Stephen. Dawn does provide legal advise with regard to postings that might over step the mark and could result in the poster being liable for serious legal repercussions. There is no other connection - in fact I have never even met her in person - to the best of my knowledge. Again, Stephen, you need to understand this site is NOT an official web site set up by any official body. It is a hobby site run by myself. My decisions are therefore FINAL - you have no come back, no right of reply etc. You could of course set up your own Liphook Blog - which might be a good idea for you Stephen. But suffice it say for now, you may find any number of your future postings 'moderated' at my personal discretion. Happy New Year Alan - www.liphook.co.uk Editor.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Mike Grimes (2nd Jan 2010 - 12:47:05) Keep up the good work Alan. If this site were reduced to postings about the date of the next Brownies jumble sale then I don't suppose I'd use it.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Sarah (2nd Jan 2010 - 14:29:59) Can I also say keep up the good work Alan. It had never really occurred to me before that this is essentially a 'hobby' website, and it must take up a considerable amount of your time. I thoroughly enjoy it and use it for many things, including Talkback. To a degree I understand what Stephen is saying in his initial point about people being rude and aggressive in certain postings, and some posters do indeed seem to join in just to stir up trouble. I have been on the receiving end of this myself when I joined in a post about people mis-using the allocated parking spaces in Sainsbury's. The vitriol it stirred up was extraordinary and slightly off the point, and made me think twice about posting again. But this is not your doing and I imagine you do indeed have to moderate some postings or the site could turn into something very nasty, and if you can gain unofficial and presumably free advice from a local person with legal knowledge, then why not - I see no problem with that. As you say, it is not an official site. I agree with Stephen that if I was a non-resident looking to move to Liphook some of the posts might make me think about the kind of people living here (though you get that in any place), but again you cannot win - you appear to be damned if you moderate and damned if you don't. Ironically, when I read Stephen's posts I personally found them to be slightly aggressive and personal in attack on you and other contributors to the site, the very point which, I think, was being argued against. Just to clarify my support of this site, I do not know you, Dawn or any other contributor!

Re: Postings on Talkback - barbara (2nd Jan 2010 - 15:35:11) I am grateful there is a moderator and someone checking posts for legal reasons, as there are too many attempts to use false names and multiple names from the same ip address. This is deliberately to add weight to spreading mis information or spin. These people are easy to spot now, as they never post again if they think their true identity will come to light.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Sumi Olson (2nd Jan 2010 - 15:51:59) Hi and Happy New Year! I've a great deal of sympathy for what Stephen has highlighted here and recognise that these valid concerns are often raisd on forum sites. I think that it’s healthy for these questions to be raised and helps create a sense of community ownership of the site. Over the years, the talkback section has helped keep me informed about all sorts of things such as road closures, water & power outages, local events, trade recommendations and so on. So thanks everyone who is community-minded enough to contribute in such a way. The site has also provided me with laughs (Finchie's contributions come to mind) and also, as is the way with all genuine discussions & vigorous debates, food for thought or disagreement. I’ve been inspired by some of the outcomes of threads (e.g. the quiz night just organised), frustrated by others (the parent & child/disabled parking debate where sexism, parochialism, digs against incomers and other off-topic inputs came up) and grateful (the monthly markets organised by Ben). I don't want genuine debate to be stifled by any means but I confess that some recent threads have really left a nasty taste in my mouth. I've previously acknowledged that emails can sometimes appear abrupt or brusque, or imply an intention that the author may not have intended, and personally try to be mindful of what I write; writing on an online forum should ideally bring in a degree of self-censorship and sense of responsibility given one isn’t merely gossiping over a garden fence but is contributing to an open arena. Apologies all round if, at times, I’ve failed. I don't profess to have any formal legal training but reading some of the recent (rather self-indulgent) posts have left me wondering how close to slander posts can get without someone one day deciding to take action. It is, as is often highlighted, all too easy to sit down and type off a post which in hindsight one might regret. I remember succumbing to an unusual level of irritation and then asking the Editor to delete the post before it went on the site and since then have tried to be more careful to practice what I preach. After seeing yet another speeding driver in the village or one using a mobile whilst driving (I can count on seeing at least one of those a day), I've been minded to type out a rant but so far have resisted the urge to add yet another drip of negativity onto the forum. It doesn’t matter how important a topic is, negativity and bad feeling is not always interesting to read! For the health of the site we need a range of contributors and a range of opinions but I wouldn’t like a site which is simply a vehicle for uninformed judgments which stifles debate, or one which is, as Mike says, little more than a diary of events. So thanks, Stephen and others for voicing misgivings which I share because I think the site and talkback great resources for the community and would hate to see others put off by the current trend. At the same time, as it’s a difficult job to ensure a right balance of debate & information is achieved, contributors need to be more mindful of what they write. I do appreciate the Editor's time & commitment to the site, especially given it's a voluntary occupation. Mr Editor, do you think it's worth having a fuller description of the moderation policy available in the future? Sumi

Re: Postings on Talkback - Dawn Hoskins (2nd Jan 2010 - 16:11:58) I realise that I am a target because I am speaking out. I realise that if I continue to speak out I will remain a target. However, the issue at the heart of this is important and I have made the decision to carry on regardless. I do not mind if people wish to paint a black picture of me, that is their choice and they are free to do so. I am a big girl so I can cope with it! However, that should not detract from the real issue that I am banging on about. I will continue to ‘bang on about it’ until you are given the full facts by the people who should have given you the full facts in the first place! I appologise if I seem vitriolic, I am not sure I would go as far as describing myself as spiteful – but I am very fed up about what has been going on behind closed doors. Being ‘fed-up’ about something probably does make me write in an angry and negative way – so for that I am sorry. I just want people to tell the truth – and I don’t understand why they can’t. Apart from the ‘non-entities’ who were personally attacking me using fake personas to conceal themselves, I can’t remember ever being nasty to anyone. I would be very upset if I was the cause of anyone not wanting to join it with this site. For all other issues I will not contribute further. Perhaps other newbies will be able to join if I am absent?

Re: Postings on Talkback - Sumi Olson (2nd Jan 2010 - 17:34:04) Hi Dawn I really really really don't want to turn yet another thread into one where the Parish Council/FOI issues are brought up so will just try reply to your general point on style & approach. There may or may not be issues at stake regarding the PC and its practices (BTW, you may feel that you are taking up the debate on our behalf but speaking JUST for myself here, if I'm concerned then I am happy to take action for myself), as I've said before, I feel deeply uncomfortable at the direction the threads have taken. Passion for one's subject is commendable but "banging on" regardless whether or not people want to hear about it or are put off by one's style, undermines a discussion. I would suggest you are not being "targeted" because you are right (or wrong) so criticism shouldn't be taken as vindication on continuing in the same vein. As previous posters have said in discussions ranging from allocated parking to the PC, this is Liphook not Westminster, Fleet Street or anywhere else where mountains arise from mole hills. However righteous one feels any cause to be, we should all consider whether this forum is always the place to discuss it. People will just stop listening, or as people have said to me, stop visiting (the site) as they become weary of the general tone of threads. Please understand that whilst I may not agree with many of your posts or may not always enjoy the style in which your points are addressed (I speak in particular about the above debate), to paraphrase, I would absolutely hate it if you decided not to contribute at all! As I've just written, we need the widest range of contributors! So Dawn, I genuinely hope you will continue contributing to the site but also, I hope you will consider the impact the current debate is having on the rest of us. Can we talk about something else in 2010? Cheers, Sumi

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (2nd Jan 2010 - 20:12:28) In reply to the editor and others at least you have been honest about the connection with Dawn Hoskins, although at Dawn has not been honest open with us about this. So is she "moderating" her own posts? I think that is a little hard to swallow especially following the content of some of the posts she has made in the past which people have said to me could be actionable. I do not wish, and never have wished to detract or imply detraction from the good work the editor does with this site and as a hobby site as well. It is great, and I am supporter and have no intention or wish to set up my own blog. But I do think we all need to be clear about the meaning of "moderated". If Dawn has been checking? the posts made about specific indviduals and deciding if they should be posted or not especially when she started posts about those people then that cannot be right and the whole thing is a bit of a set up and I do not think she should be involved. Posts are therefore being controlled or might I say manipulated or that could be the charge. Perhaps Talkback has got too big and complex in this day and age and you need some proper professional advice now. I dont have problems with the editor's decision being final but I think it would be good for all of us to know the critieria for making those decisions and any other people involved in that decison making process. Talkback is a local village forum and should be able to police itself without involvment of an "editor" or "moderator" or Dawn Hoskins or anyone else if we all know the ground rules. It should make your job easier to. An if Dawn wants to "bang on" thats fine as long as she knows that some people are bored of it and mega bored. She is not adding anything to the sensible debates and discussions that take place. What a shame, or not, depending on how people feel about it. Sumi, thank you for your supportive comments, a voice of common sense and force for good...and Finchie's posts are brilliant and a breath of fresh air. I nominate Finchie as the Liphook Talkback Prize Poster 2009, so come on editor what about a competition and a prize? I will start another thread...sorry Eneida.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Editor (2nd Jan 2010 - 22:01:15) Hi Stephen You really haven't got it have you. There is no collusion between Dawn and myself regarding any posts on MY site. If you think that you are capable of writing a set of RULES for TalkBack - please do so. You have already declined to moderate the site yourself and you have said that you don't want to start your own Liphook Blog. There is NO requirement for you or anybody to ever type www.liphook.co.uk into their web browsers. In the same way that you probably never go to porn sites. Stephen - you have now "banged on" (in your own words) enough. If you don't like what you see - stay away - 'simples' as the Meerkat would say. Alan

Re: Postings on Talkback - Phil (2nd Jan 2010 - 23:43:50) Some interesting angles to this debate, I'm sure all will agree. Alan (Ed) - with respect, I personally feel some of your responses to Stephen have been 'challenging' in themselves - e.g. calling for him to nominate himself as a Moderator, setting up an alternative site himself etc. If we take that to its logical conclusion, would you be willing to accept others as fellow moderators, and in doing so publish detailed criteria on the rules and process for moderation? Doing so may encourage the generation of a team of Moderators, which should be in your favour and assist with running your site? I also suspect everyone should consider if they would be willing to re-state any post in public to the other party, away from their keyboards? It might improve community relations, and remove any perceived sense of cyber-bullying as some here have referred to it. Finally, some posters make what I feel are excessively lengthy posts, which to my mind become overly argumentative,sometimes self-serving and definitely tedious. Perhaps more pithy post are needed, or a reasonable limit imposed electronically? It's 2010 and there are bigger issues in the world to worry about than Liphook - live and let live, but let's not be fools either! Best wishes, Phil

Re: Postings on Talkback - Neil (3rd Jan 2010 - 09:29:15) Stephen, I agree with you that Dawn can go on a bit and will bring the same news up in any thread possible but I hate to say you are starting to catch-up with her. I think we should start a Stephen and Dawn Blog so we can all have some fun reading. Alan, keep up the good work I for one think you do a thankless task. Neil

Re: Postings on Talkback - Phil (3rd Jan 2010 - 11:58:02) Apologies, one further thought .... ! Is 'Talkback' a social experiement, along the lines of Lord of the Flies?! Happy New Year!

Re: Postings on Talkback - Sumi Olson (3rd Jan 2010 - 13:48:28) Phil, Good suggestions all round! Sumi

Re: Postings on Talkback - Stephen (3rd Jan 2010 - 17:54:41) Phil and Neil I did respond to the Editors post of 2 Jan earlier today but it has not been posted. In that post I did apologise to everyone if it was felt I had been banging on so you will not see what I said. I do not know what was wrong with it, but I must respect it has been moderated. It may be a time delay problem as posts can take 24 hours. I also made some suggestions about rules. I am pleased that there is support for this. It could improve talkback and hopefully the image of this site which is what is needed. I see that Editor is starting to respond to the ideas of having some simple rules and I think this is a good move, and hopefully a positive one.

Re: Postings on Talkback - Phil (3rd Jan 2010 - 18:09:01) I suspect 2010 could be the year when the wider Talkback community says 'enough' to the tone of certain threads and contributors, establishes some ground-rules that supports the Editor and posters, and moves forward in a positive manner. I do hope so. I do hope sense prevails.

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