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Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (12th Apr 2015 - 15:15:24) Hi, For anyone having a Labour/Green voting dilemma on the 7th of May, I found this website helpful. voteswap.org/seat/i65569 Katie

Re: Labour/Green dilemma,,,anything but Cameron - Question 7 (12th Apr 2015 - 16:44:23) Think the protest will end up going to UKIP in our constituency.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (12th Apr 2015 - 17:51:17) That is a shame - I think UKIP's policies and general outlook are utter nonsense.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Question 7 (13th Apr 2015 - 10:20:26) Could not agree with you more, but I think there is a general apathy towards all the big parties who simply have no idea of the realities of life. There is an arrogance which is astonishing. Just because it is a general election we will all fall back into line. The whole UKIP band wagon, is a little like the NF in France the hope is the Westminster bubble may burst. We are like many, in a safe seat, we will not see any canvassers, little money will be spent by the parties and life will continue. All you need to look at is the Parish Council thread, we have a guy who is up in court, changes his allegiances with the wind, who will continue because no one has the time or inclination to stand. Come the revolution! ;)

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (13th Apr 2015 - 12:36:50) I can completely understand the apathy towards politics and distrust of/disconnection with Westminister & the main parties. We need a complete overhaul of our political system. I just hope that if (when) we end up with another unelected coalition people will revolt & demand proportional representation.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - wolfie smith (13th Apr 2015 - 21:06:58) If you are anything other than a Tory or UKIP voter you have to vote Lib Dem in the general election here. Labour and the Greens have no chance. But if UKIP can split the Tory vote there\\\'s a smidge of a chance the Lib Dems could sneak it. Let\\\'s face it though. This is about as safe a Tory seat as it gets. On May 7th though I think Labour will get in. Probably a coalition. Though they\\\'re running a good campaign and might sneak a majority. 600,000 people in the UK used foodbanks last year. Unbelievable. And how many bankers have the Tories prosecuted?

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (14th Apr 2015 - 00:23:16) Wolfie, you are completely right that this is a Tory safe seat (why oh why?!) and so I will vote for the best candidate (imo) which is Peter Bisset for Green. The Green Party apparently have the largest youth membership of any political party, so that gives me hope for the future. Perhaps we will one day have an MP here who didn't vote in favour of fracking. Remember that when you are voting Tory & UKIP people!

Re: Labour/Green dilemna - Peter Shooter (14th Apr 2015 - 06:04:08) I am new to the area as my wife and I moved in last year from a very Labour seat in South London. I agree with you that in a safe seat a vote against the encumbent will not change the status quo but I genuinely feel that an unelected coalition would not be fair. I believe that we may have a second election very soon after the first but all of that could be avoided if we had a much more representative voting system such as pr. All of our votes against Mr Hinds will count for nothing even if he only polls 60%.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian (14th Apr 2015 - 09:35:02) Ah, its nice to see the vocal minority in action. Well just to put some balance here I for one cannot forgive the last Labour Government for dragging the nation into an illegal war and the carnage and misery that is still being felt today. Not much to choose between any of the politicians nowadays, no matter what side of the political fence but please spare us from the usual left wing, self-righteous claptrap, they are all as bad as each other.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (14th Apr 2015 - 11:51:43) I'm pretty sure the Green Party were against the war in Iraq...

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian (14th Apr 2015 - 12:10:40) True, although the Greens remain a political irrelevance in the UK. That being said I would prefer them to UKIP

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - wolfie smith (14th Apr 2015 - 13:15:17) Ian - Don't know but If you read that well know socialist rag owned by that communist Rupert Murdoch 'The Times' today? You may be interested in the leader near the letters page. The Times says its nonsense to blame Labour for the financial crisis when it was a global meltdown starting in the USA. Though that's probably more leftwing claptrap from those dangerous Times commies. Anything else you want to blame the Labour Party for? Bankers bonuses? Foodbanks? The weather? I want the Tories out. Lib Dems offers me the best chance in Liphook. I will be voting Lib Dem. I cant stand Clegg but he's going to lose his seat anyway.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - S (14th Apr 2015 - 14:11:44) The Green party's membership has doubled in the last year, they don't have that many fewer members than UKIP, I don't think they will be so irrelevant in the future. This constituency is a Tory safe seat but I hope that doesn't put people off bothering to vote. The whole electoral system is really unfair and if all the people whose opinions aligned with the Green party actually voted for them, it may not change the outcome but it would certainly give them ammunition to push for a change to proportional representation in government (which is already in their manifesto), and give others more confidence to vote green in the future. It depends on your priorities of course, I think some of the Tory policies are utterly disgusting and disgraceful, and even if I agreed with them on other things (which I don't), I couldn't vote for them after their stance on fracking, the badger cull (there is no scientific stance for that, it is pure murder for the sake of votes from the agricultural community & money down the drain), and their disregard for the environment - though at least their latest Environment Secretary accepts that climate change exists... I heard representatives from all the major parties speak about their environmental policies last month, and in my opinion the Greens (of course) came out on top, but Labour also has some really solid environmental policies, and their representative spoke very passionately about them. The conservative speaker (Graham Cox - Hove) was absolutely appalling! Considering the whole debate was about environmental issues, he knew absolutely nothing, was totally unprepared, dismissive and unconcerned about any environmental issues, of course he had very little policy on his side, but it just goes to show where the Tories priorities lie. I keep seeing the argument from Tory voters that "but, the economy is the most important thing right now", and I appreciate that point, but I really think people should do some research into environmental economics - if we want long-term prosperity then the current system needs desperate change, which the Tories will never offer. There are some really inspiring and brilliant environmental economists out there, but their views are desperately under-represented and unpublicised since they are not saying want politicians want to hear.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - ian (14th Apr 2015 - 15:00:37) Wolfie, nope, don't read the Times, my dislike of Rupert Murdoch and his evil spawn is as great as my dislike of all self serving politicians and especially those murderers Bush and Blair (a Labour Prime Minister!!!!). Of course the current Labour party would like to disassociate itself with all the past failings of its predecessors but they always come back to the politics of envy and all labour governments fail (although to be fair I'm not a great fan of those idiots in the Tories either!). I do feel this election is like being asked to choose between two nasty afflictions and I'm reminded of a quote I once heard which was, "don't vote, it only encourages the B*******s"

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - John (14th Apr 2015 - 15:05:49) It seems to me that the continuing failure of the Greens reflects the fact that whilst most people do not object to their Utopian vision, the General Public just do not care enough about the environment, otherwise The Greens would have a lot more representation than they do.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - stacey (14th Apr 2015 - 16:00:13) I agree the greens have some good policies but enough to run a government? I am going to vote green in a protest against Damien Hinds, whose face is plastered on a board on the land belonging to Bohunt Manor and the links. No thought for the environment there is there Damien?

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Diane (15th Apr 2015 - 00:21:55) Lets face it, if the Tories put up a dead donkey for a candidate in this area The conservative voters would still vote for it and get it elected A previous poster was quite right the about the Labour goverment not being responsable for the recession. It was a global crisis caused by the Banks and we were coming out of it untill the Coservatives were elected and stopped it. 5 years down the line and they are still blaming the Labour goverment. Having said all that, the conservative MP for the area is quite a nice person

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (15th Apr 2015 - 10:41:56) I have higher expectations for my MP than them being "quite nice". I am so fed up with the line that MP's are only being human when they are exposed for corruption/scandal/fraud/sexism/racism... The list goes on. Then they complain that they aren't paid enough, because with their Oxbridge backgrounds they would earn so much more in the private sector and they are basically doing us all a massive favour. We should be extremely grateful that they even turn up to play Candy Crush in Westminister. Bring on the REVOLUTION.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - tony (15th Apr 2015 - 12:10:18) With the Greens planning to ban rabbit hutches (really), the Grand National and who knows what next, I don't think they'll too much support here, unless you like your greens with a heavy dash of Stalinism, and power cuts. The LibCons will give you more of the same, Labour are still tainted by Blair and his wars and their champagne socialist hypocracy. I guess only UKIP offer any hope of positive change for the average hard working, mustn't grumble, overlooked British worker. At least they're giving the rest a long overdue shake up, worrying them out of their contemptuous complacency! Obviously they won't get in, but since Tories will anyway, why don't we all make a protest vote. UKIP, or the rabbit hutch banning communists! So a protest vote for UKIP, if nothing else!

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (15th Apr 2015 - 13:14:39) Tony, the Greens are planning to ban rabbit cages in FARMING, your pet bunnies are just fine in their garden hutches, so snuggle away without fear! Also, having read their manifesto, there is no plan to ban the Grand National, although they do plan to ban the whip in horse racing and to review sports that may cause suffering to animals. Personally, I don't have a problem with these policies. I wonder if you have even bothered to read the UKIP manifesto? It's wonderful to make an informed decision.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - S (15th Apr 2015 - 13:50:25) Spot the Daily Mail reader.. They do not want to ban domestic rabbit hutches, their manifesto talks about banning agricultural rabbit cages. "Farmed rabbits are often housed in buildings containing rows of bare wire cages, which may be arranged in a single row or stacked in two or more tiers. •Eight or more growing rabbits are often kept together in a cage of around 0.56 square metres in floor area. Just over an A4-sized area of floor space for each rabbit in the cage. •Cages are often only around 45cm in height. •Each doe will have around five to eight litters of eight to ten young per year. Alternative systems: A small number of farms may rear rabbits in improved conditions in open floor pens, and may provide them with hay in addition to their diet of pellets." (www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/rabbits/farming) I would say that it's a fairly reasonable piece of animal welfare legislation to ban rabbits being raised in bare, wire cages the size of a piece of A4 paper, it's a pretty simple alternative to have them barn-raised, able to move and have access to hay - but that wouldn't make such derogatory loony-Green headlines, would it?

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian (15th Apr 2015 - 17:11:40) Almost laughable that there is a discussion about rabbit policy in the build up to this general election, sums the Greens up really. And as for Ukip, a bunch of closet Nazi's and a protest vote for them across the country will probably mean a labour government with those Scotish Nationalsts dictating policy for the whole of the UK, horrific prospect

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian (15th Apr 2015 - 17:33:16) Just picking up on another point, I wonder just how many of our MP's and major party candidates have ever had a proper job. To me the main problem with our democracy in recent years has been the rise of career politicians regardless of the party, there seems to be no real conviction or belief anymore, just get a few years as a minister on the cv and then get on the corporate money train or lucrative lectures tour. (or if you really want to get your nose in the trough, become an MEP

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Katie (15th Apr 2015 - 18:47:33) Ian, I couldn't agree with you more except on your anti-voting stance. On a separate thread I posted a link to Peter Bisset's (Green Party) CV. Take a look, I think it's pretty impressive. I emailed all of the other East Hants candidates to ask them to upload their CV's to the same site. The only reply was from the UKIP candidate referring me to his personal website (no CV), but he was in the editorial team for The Daily Express! Speaks volumes.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - wolfie smith (16th Apr 2015 - 01:26:10) I never really got my head round the hysteria that surrounded the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Saddam Husein was a bad guy. Anne Clywyd went to Faluja and found 80,000 people in a mass grave after he ordered chemical weapons on to the town. What should we have done? Just let them get on with it isn't an anti war argument. It's a cowardly argument. I was taught to stand up to bullys. The west/Blair did the right thing in getting rid of him. With Afghanistan I never really got the military objective. However let's rewind a bit. It was 9/11 that started this. An attack on America. Frankly I am still surprised that Bush didn't nuke someone. Because he could of. I think Blair is the best prime minister this country has had. I am not mad keen on Ed Milliband. Cooper or Burnham would be my choices as Labour leader. But i'll be voting Lib Dem in the hope UKIP split the vote and we can keep a Tory out. There's a story every day in the Daily Mail about benefit fraud. But not one banker has been charged for bringing the country to its knees. I wonder why...

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian (16th Apr 2015 - 09:39:57) Wolfie, you name yourself after a fictional 1970's comical left wing agitator, I can see why! However there is nothing comical about Blairs contribution to the world. This man lied to the country and engaged us in an immoral war that is still costing the lives of countless people. Do you really think either Iraq or Afghanistan are better countries to live in now? Do you think the world is a safer place today because of Bush and Blair's actions. I would agree that the slump was global and it was not just down to Labour (although I think they contributed to the harshness of its impact in the UK). However the same could be said for the boom beforehand which again was a global phenomena and likewise was probably not to Labours policies.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - stacey (16th Apr 2015 - 09:54:26) The atrocities by saddam hussein had been going on for at least 20 years, Clare Short was ignored for years over it, the Blair government was well aware of them, did nothing. It was only when George Bush, who decided the West was threatened and the oil at risk, that the Puppet Blair decided to follow on, with the scaremongering about the WMD which could supposedly cause destruction to England in 30 mins what a load of nonsense,there are atrocities all the time in Saudi Arabia, and because of our links and the Prince Andrew influence, we do not even prosecute lawbreakers here properly if they are wealthy royal Saudis. Stand up to bullies? what nonsense, women in Afgahnistan and the Middle East are just as opressed as they were in the Middle Ages. Recently one was stoned to death there.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - stacey (16th Apr 2015 - 10:12:48) Hi Wolfie, I think you are miss remembering history. The first Gulf war started in 1991 long before 9/11, it was all about oil then too! the reason that George Bush did not press on to depose Saddam Hussain then was pressure from the wealthy Saudis involved in the theatre of war at the time. They did not want to cede total power to the west, they thought they could manage Iraq. For years, in the IRAN/IRAQ wars Saddam was our ally? we gave the Iranian people sanctuary here when they fled the oppression in Iran. We encouraged Saddam at that particular time, even giving him weapons etc to build his army. Our industries here sell weapons and systems to whoever has the money.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - james (16th Apr 2015 - 10:32:02) I thought we had a referendum on PR a few years ago and it was rejected.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - wolfie smith (16th Apr 2015 - 12:31:17) Firstly the reason for the first gulf war was that Iraq annexed Kuwait. Not oil. Secondly none of the posters seem to get the central point. Which is what would they have done about a guy like Saddam Hussein? Just let him carry on committing mass murder? Not our problem? When I was younger I marched against Apartheid, the Poll Tax. But when I looked at the anti Iraq war marchers I just thought they were 'anti war' and just don't get it. I wondered if they would have acted the same in the 1930s in reaction to Hitler. The world had to do something about Saddam Hussein. IMO the West did the right thing. IMO Blair did the right thing.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - wolfie smith (16th Apr 2015 - 13:01:13) btw Ian- wolfie is my real name. Wolfgang Smith. Look me up in the phone book. How do I know you're not really Ian Beale? Power to the people.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - stacey (16th Apr 2015 - 13:01:44) Yes Saddam annexed Kuwait, for the oil! His first act was to capture the oil fields there for himself. Why else did George Bush go over there? There are plenty of despotic rulers around, especially in the African continent, what about Zimbabwe and the atrocities there, do we get involved- no, no oil in that country is there?

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian (16th Apr 2015 - 13:13:06) Unbelievably deluded if you think the first gulf war was for any reason other than oil. And you still have not addressed the fact that Bush and Blair LIED to justify their crusade.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian Beale (16th Apr 2015 - 13:57:38) Well apologies Wolfie although I would use a different name then if you want to get taken seriously in a political debate ;-)

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - wolfie smith (16th Apr 2015 - 20:53:26) Stacey, Ian and Ian Beale (I knew it..) What would you have done about Saddam Husein invading Kuwait? Or the 9/11 bombers attacking America? A jolly good telling off? Send them to the naughty step? Blow a massive rasberry in their face? A prolonged bout of tickling? I found it depressing how the left and the anti war movement became apologists for right wing dictators and murderers and turned there fury against democratically elected politicians.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - Ian (17th Apr 2015 - 09:16:57) Wolfie Well I would not have LIED to the electorate to justify the war! Iraq was invaded because of oil, plain and simple. What is particularly offensive is that the war was driven by Dick Cheney and his corrupt business cronies and Blair sacrificed countless young British lives to support corporate America foreign policy. You are right to condemn the lack of action against corrupt bankers but what about Blair, Bush, Cheney and most of the directors of Enron, Haliburton etc? Should they also not be prosecuted, in this case for crimes against humanity and mass murder? Now I'm not saying Saddam Hussain did not deserve what he got but please do not for one minute think there was any moral righteousness in Blair's actions. If the war was driven by wanting to get rid of the "bad guys" then will be in for lifetime of conflict because there are still plenty of them about. Do you advocate that we should invade Russia? What Putin did with Crimea is no different from Iraq invading Kuwait! You frequently talk about power to the people but the people of England gave their judgement on Blair at the last election. I'm pretty sure that Labour did not lose because of economics, as you have said that was a global problem. What lost the election for Brown was Blair's blood-stained legacy My final word, and to steer back to the original post, I do think The Greens made an honourable stance against the Gulf wars and for that at least they should be praised.

Re: Labour/Green dilemma - tom (18th Apr 2015 - 12:53:02) I think what is most amusing to anyone else reading this thread is watching the left wingers getting tied up in knots over whether or not Blair. Right he got rid of Saddam. . Who as bad as he was, was the only force holding Iraq together. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of middle east politics was aware of. Just look at it now. Talk about a Pandora\\\'s Box. Armchair lefties in this country may think ridding the world of Saddam was a wonderful thing, but ask the millions of Iraqi families that are in constant fear of their lives on a daily basis. Many would rather have retained the security that came with Saddam than the gift that Bush and Blair have given them. The same lefties were then banging on about doing exactly the same thing in Libya (another success story) and Syria.

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