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The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - JC (9th Jun 2013 - 09:29:20) The below flyer was received on Saturday through my door: The bells of St. Mary's Bramshott have been calling Christians to worship on Sundays since the 1700's. Following decision by the vicar to change the times of the Sunday services, it now seems unlilkely that the bells will be rung again on a Sunday morning. THIS IS NOT THE CHOICE OF THE BELL RINGERS. THIS IS NOT THE CHOICE OF ST MARY'S PCC The responsibility for this action lies directly with the vicar. The question to be asked is........... What would Jesus have done?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - A. Ryan (9th Jun 2013 - 13:14:35) Had a "quiet" lie in !

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Richard (9th Jun 2013 - 14:34:38) Jesus would have done absolutely nothing as bells were not introduced into the Christian church until 400AD when Paulinus of Nola introduced church bells into the Christian Church. In AD 604, Pope Sabinianus officially sanctioned their usage. By the early Middle Ages, church bells became common in Europe. So they did not reach the UK until at least 610AD People who are going to put questions on their flyers (ie What would Jesus do?) should really do their research first.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - tony (9th Jun 2013 - 16:26:19) Great answer Richard. I have no opinion one way or the other but I do love a good ding dong! In the question 'what would Jesus have done?', 'would' is a conditional verb, so while we may never know, we are invited to guess. I'm going to guess he would have said: "For my sake, I'm telling you you're going to eternal damnation and you're worrying about bells? just drop everything and let's go catch some fish!"

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - dawn (9th Jun 2013 - 16:56:20) You do not need to go to a church to worship and you do not need prescribed religion, or prescribed times of day to speak to God. Living where he did, young Jesus would probably have grown up listening to a horn, which the Jewish people used to call worshipers to the temple, but church bells didn’t start being fashionable until Jesus had been dead for about 600 years. So, in Answer to the question, what would Jesus do? Probably appreciate the peace. His key message was wherever there are people there is a church. This is not a matter of religion; it is a matter of village life. The person appointed to run the church, makes the decisions regarding the running of the church. This may be to encourage more people to attend? But for whatever the reason, I am sure it was not done to raise the ire of local people. Perhaps if the villagers feel so strongly they should sit down and have a talk together so their strength of feeling can be understood. But maybe the whole village don’t feel strongly? Perhaps just the person who has taken time, trouble and energy to distribute the fliers is trying to raise awareness and gain followers to his/her way of thinking? Who knows? Waging war on your local vicar is not a very Christianly thing to do – so lets hope that is not the case. God would probably like a kind atheist more than a spiteful Christian me thinks.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Tracy (9th Jun 2013 - 22:00:42) Wow...simply shocking. Really truly shocking. We all have to accept change in our lives. Decisions are made which may at the time seem unreasonable however understand what Jesus would have wanted.......peace. Please forgive and move on...life is fleeting....believe me...I speak from personal experience. Support our Valentine, he is one man, doing his very best to serve us. He may not always get it right, we are all flawed as humans. On this one....really, truly, move on.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - rita (10th Jun 2013 - 12:09:05) The person that has printed and distributed these flyers has got them selves in a right old state. and also has got too much time on there hands! I love hearing the church bells i think it takes you back to a forgotten time when a sunday was special. But a member of the church disrespecting there own vicar is appauling. and also a very un christian thing to do. Also a cowardly action if no name was put on them. Valantine introduced himself to me when i was walking up the road, which i thought was nice. i have known alot of vicars and he is the only one i know to do that. Why not set up a proper meeting and discuss like adults.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Simon (10th Jun 2013 - 21:46:20) This kind of absolute faith in members of the clergy led to the abuse of hundreds of people across the years. A vicar should lead by example so that he can gain the support of his parishioners. He should not be isolating established groups for his own means. Putting people on pedestals will only feed their egos.....We should learn from history.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Dennis (10th Jun 2013 - 22:01:02) Richard, I suspect that the question, "what would Jesus do?" Was a rhetorical question, rather than a literal one, questioning the absolute faith in authority. Dawn, I agree with a lot of what you say, but alienating some of the community is hardly encouraging more people to attend the church, and waging war on the vicar is not a very Christian thing to do, but is it a very Christian thing to do, for the vicar to totally disregard some of the parishioners? God would probably like a kind atheist more than an autonomous vicar!! Tracy, yes we do all have to accept change in our lives, but "decisions made which may at the time seem unreasonable" could apply very neatly to Germany between 1933 and 1945, so is hardly a very valid argument. Rita, I think you should perhaps get spellcheck on your computer!!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - DML (11th Jun 2013 - 02:36:15) Don't know the vicar and have no axe to grind, and as an atheist and a villager the only view I have is that I love the sound of church bells for no other reason than it makes me feel good and rekindles memories. Bit of a shame if you ask me ..

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - AveCl (11th Jun 2013 - 09:27:02) Just to be clear, the ringers had nothing to do with this flier, it was as much news to them as to everyone else when it went round. The comment about discussion is a valid one, however it did not happen, the ringers (and I believe the organist too) were told after any decision had been made. There was an attempt to discuss a few days before the change came into force, but on the back of 'these are the service times and we will not change them.' The ringers feel ringing before 9am is not fair to the local, and very supportive, residents.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (11th Jun 2013 - 09:44:37) Very, very sad and quite shocked to learn that the church bells of Bramshott will not ring on a Sunday morning. I hear it's all to do with a more 'convenient' time for the Sunday Service. Seems to have been perfectly satisfactory until now.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Barbara (11th Jun 2013 - 11:39:56) I thought there were 2 Sunday services? could the bell ringers not do the later one?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - AveCl (11th Jun 2013 - 11:52:36) Barbara, there is only 1 service at St Mary's. The later is at the Church Centre. If there was a later at St Mary's there would be no problem.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (11th Jun 2013 - 13:30:37) This may be simple minded of me but if there are two services why not have the earlier one at the Church Centre and the later one at Bramshott? I'm still astonished that they can be silenced (apart from a few weddings no doubt), after hundreds of years, just for modern convenience.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Boris (11th Jun 2013 - 14:21:12) Does the Vicar rule by decree, or is this a decision of his Church Council (church wardens etc). If this is a decision that has been reached by the church leadership then it is with them that the matter should be discused. If the decision of the Vicar alone, then the congregation need to look at controlling unvested authority.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - nick (11th Jun 2013 - 15:18:07) Having read all the comments about the church feel must say none of you know the full story. From 9 June services at Bramshott are 8am communion 9:15am matins 6pm evening prayer not every sunday In regards to the PCC and the Vicar if you had attended the PCC AGM you may have been astounded by how many of those who attended were not happy about the new change of times at the Church. The decision had been made but not all voted for the change. The Church Centre service I believe is at 1015am/1030am. On certain occasions the service is at 1030 ie Canada wednesday and other special days during the week. In regard to the bells they are normally rung to call worshippers to church approx 15 mins prior to the start of the service, it was suggested the bells could be rung at end of service which to me seems pointless. I understand the RC church rings its bell 10 minutes prior to service. As regarding the flyers put them in the bin not sanctioned by many and should be ignored. To sum up check your facts before making these comments.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Barbara (11th Jun 2013 - 15:26:41) I think the decision to have the service earlier was the Vicars and or the PCCs? The decision not to ring the bells before the earlier timed service was the bellringers? I may be wrong?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (11th Jun 2013 - 16:43:59) Well done those who circulated the (admittedly rather odd) flyer, for highlighting what is happening. It said the bell ringers were not in favour of the change of time, but it would be interesting to know if this is correct, I suspect it is. So the PCC have voted in favour of the new times - but presumably this is just for convenience for somebody. I wonder how many of the wider congregation are in favour and how many realised the decision would mean that the historic church bells would not be rung.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Jenny (11th Jun 2013 - 17:45:23) As a past ringer at St. Mary's, I think it is very sad the bells are not going to be rung. Evie Karloff, Boris Karloff's wife who lived in Bramshott paid for renovation so the bells could continue. Jo Cripps put in hours and hours teaching bell ringers so Bramshott could ring out for Matins. Teams of ringers used to travel from church to church in the diocese visiting each other's bell towers. Bell ringing as we know it, is unique to the UK (although it has now spread to USA and Canada) In Europe the bells are just 'clanged' so UK 'change ringing' is both a skill and an art. We used to ring muffled bells for "Canada Sunday' now changed to Canada Day and for certain funerals. It is part of our heritage.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Dennis (11th Jun 2013 - 19:17:40) Liz, I like your optimism, and I am not a bell ringer myself, but if the bell ringers are not ringing at Bramshott, surely they will go somewhere else to ring, where they are wanted, and then who is going to ring for weddings? I can't see that they would be keen to come back for the odd wedding when their loyalties will, by then be for another church. It seems to me, that the whole village is going to suffer the loss of the bells, and it is a shame that one mans arrogance and stubbornness can bring this about.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Simon (11th Jun 2013 - 19:47:32) Having chatted to a number of the congregation at Bramshott, it would appear that the \'bells scenario\' is merely the tip of the iceberg. Many of the congregation at Bramshott are elderly and will find the 9:15 service a logistical struggle to get to, where as the 11:15 was more manageable. A number of them feel that their needs are not being addressed at all by the vicar.....and be under no doubt that whilst it may be on paper that the PCC are making decisions.....they are being strongly directed/led, even bullied, by the vicar. A phrase that keeps getting repeated by people at Bramshott is that they must just \'Put up and shut up\'! Is this how it should be for devoted christians who have remained loyal to St.Mary\'s for 30-40 years....and indeed heavily contributed their time, efforts and finances Indeed the same group of people to whom the vicar, during one of his sermons advised...\' You have had your time, its time to let the younger people in\' So much for the all inclusive \'Love of God\'! Since the vicars arrival a number of resignations have occured and whilst in industry this is something which one comes to expect when a new manager comes in.....it does seem sad that within a christian organisation such heavy footed actions are affecting personal situations. Is this vicar being led by the voice of God or by the voice of his ego?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Isa (11th Jun 2013 - 21:03:29) As a ringer at Bramshott I would just like to explain our situation. The Vicar has changed the service times at Bramshott to 8 am and 9:15 am and we have been asked to squeeze our ringing in between these times and to ring for half an hour starting at 8:45am. We were not consulted about the new times and we feel very strongly that to ring on a Sunday morning before 9am is unfair on the people who live around the church. We have over the years been very careful not to upset our neighbours with excessive ringing at inappropriate times of the day. Also technically it is difficult to fit in the mechanics of bell ringing with the preparations necessary inside the church with in the limited time available. We have had two meetings with the Vicar and asked him to delay the 9:15am service to 9:30 but he says he can not do that and so with heavy hearts we have stopped ringing until some way forward is found. The flyer posted through the doors was not from us but it does show the support we have with in the church

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (12th Jun 2013 - 09:06:42) Let's hope common sense and some tradition overcome arrogance. I'm also a bit shocked by the vicar's comments (assuming the post is correct) regarding the more mature in the parish that they have "had their time". This seems rather cruel to say the least. Surely there should be room for everyone.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Barbara (12th Jun 2013 - 13:41:22) I love the sound of the bells and would hope that the bells could be rung at the end of the service? I understand it being too early beforehand though!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Diane (12th Jun 2013 - 17:39:06) How sad there will be no more bells on Sundays. I live in Bramshott ,dont go to church, but like Barbara have a great affection for the sound of the bells on a Sunday morning. Are they still going to practice on Monday evenings? There is nothing like the sound of Church Bells on a still summers evening.I hope peace is restored soon.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - tony (12th Jun 2013 - 20:09:32) Clearly the vicar has upset a few people! Is it just a case of the guy being young and enthusiastic or tactless? Everyone knows there aren't enough clergy or congregation anymore, something has to change or the C of E will die. I suspect that Valentine is more suited to a younger urban ministry and he's rubbing the older members up the wrong way. That's just my gut feeling. The sermon about attracting more young people is probably quite right, but Liphook may not be the place to start,. It's a national problem for all the churches to address. Still, all publicity is good publicity, they say. Maybe a compromise, followed by an open invite to the village to attend a celebratory service at St Marys?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (13th Jun 2013 - 08:42:47) Surely you can be young (actually, without meaning to be rude, I didn't think the vicar was that young!) and enthusiastic and encourage new members to a congregation, without sweeping away all the good things - such as loyal older members (reportedly) and our traditional Sunday morning church bells. How about a good mix? Or is that too boring? As a compromise, perhaps the bells could be rung after the service to encourage all the new (and old) members of the congregation rather than be done away with completely. I know that has been suggested but not sure why it was rejected.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Thea (13th Jun 2013 - 09:17:51) Why don't we try the new times and see how we get on?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (13th Jun 2013 - 09:52:25) Thea, I'm sure the new service times will be OK in themselves. ...But this thread is about the ringing of the bells, or rather not ringing the bells. Maybe I'm a sentimental fool but I (and many others) love the sound of the church bells and it is a great shame they will not ring on Sundays after hundreds of years.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - thea (13th Jun 2013 - 14:31:52) Could we ask the neighbours of the church if they would mind if the bells rang just prior to the 9.15am service? It's nice of the bell ringers to be thoughtful about those who want to sleep on undisturbed but they may feel happier if they knew that local people still wanted the bells. Or not. Who know, they might all be delighted to be woken by the peels of bells - or may rise early anyway. I'm going along to the 9.15am service this week and would love to hear your beautiful bells.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (13th Jun 2013 - 15:11:13) Those very near the church will probably have been woken up by the traffic anyway.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - simon (13th Jun 2013 - 20:05:34) What an excellent piece of one-sided, biased journalism in the Liphook Herald this evening.....Allowing the esteemed vicar to have his say re; the bells at Bramshott...without any hint of quotes from other interested parties. So much for democracy!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Vera Lynn (14th Jun 2013 - 07:46:04) The bells of St. Marys At sweet even tide Shall call me beloved To come to your side And out in the valley In sound of the sea I know you'll be waiting Yes waiting for me The bells of St. Marys I hear they are calling My young love, the true love Who comes from the sea And so my beloved When red leaves are falling The love bell shall ring out Ring out for you and me **The bells of St. Marys I hear they are calling My young love, the true love Who comes from the sea And so my beloved When red leaves are falling The love bell shall ring out Ring out for you - and - me...

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - liz (14th Jun 2013 - 08:28:24) Still no comment as to why the bells can't be rung after the service?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Janet (14th Jun 2013 - 10:43:39) I don't think 8.45 is particularly early. I could understand the bell ringers' reticence if they'd been asked to ring the bells at, say, 6.00 a.m. but 8.45 doesn't seem too unreasonable. Are most people really still asleep at 8.45?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Yessam (14th Jun 2013 - 12:20:37) How is it that one person who has only just recently moved into our village can upset so many people who have lived and worshipped for decades at our beautiful church by changing the times and depriving us of the welcome calling us to worship. Visitors looking at the board outside coming at 10.30 will find an empty church

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - simon (14th Jun 2013 - 17:20:32) Liz, the whole purpose of bells is to call people TO worship, they are informing the world that a service is to take place and therefore to make your way to the church. Once the service has taken place there is no need to ring the bells as the deed has been done. Bells rung after a wedding are announcing to the world that the union has taken place.....that is why bells should not be rung before a wedding ....as the event may never actually be completed! The problem with ringing before the service at 8.45 is that the bells at St. Marys are actually on the altar, which means that whilst the bells were being rung people would have to be weaving in and out of the ringers clearing away the altar table and other items following the 8.00am service. ...to be followed by the preparations for the 9.15am service. This at its best is a very dangerous arrangement as anyone could easily be caught up in a bell rope and a disaster could easily come to pass! If the bells were rung up in a tower room, as in most churches, then there would be no issue, however as this is not the case at St,Marys it makes for a very different scenario.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - nick (16th Jun 2013 - 09:18:23) Mail on Sunday page 41 (comment page 27) BELLRINGERS GO ON STRIKE.....so VILLAGERS CAN GET A LIE IN

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Eneida (16th Jun 2013 - 09:38:48) This article is in the on-line version too: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2342351/Bellringers-strike-villagers-Sunday-lie-vicar-asks-start-work-earlier.html How old is the vicar?? He looks like a teenager in the photograph!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Tom (16th Jun 2013 - 11:37:04) Excellent article in the Mail on Sunday.......Not so much that the bellringers have gone on strike.....more they have been pushed aside! Valentine comes across as quite wishy washy with little reasoning and very weak arguments!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Jay W (16th Jun 2013 - 13:08:15) As they say on the BBC - other Churches and places of worship are also available - (in Liphook but not necessarily with bells on) for those that are dissatisfied with the current situation. Don't let the lack of bells spoil the real reason for going to Church. Remember God moves in mysterious way, his wonders to perform. Maybe the publicity will bring about a renewed interest in God and the Church.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Resident of Many Years (17th Jun 2013 - 07:02:53) This vicar has caused nothing but angst since he arrived. He is turning people AGAINST the church and upsetting the village. Now this. He has shown no gratitude even though thousands of pounds is being raised for the church roof by residents and people that truly care about the church as a historical building, not just his precious bums on seats. And in fact, those seats are fast emptying because he is turning everyone off. Bramshott bell ringers come back... Vicar Valentine... take your unsuccessful marketing ploys elsewhere....

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Resident of a few years (17th Jun 2013 - 11:30:16) Please "resident of many years" ... this is not a site for saying cruel things like that. Valentine is an excellent vicar and, even if he has made a couple of mistakes and lets face it he's only human, he is a devoted Christian who lives to serve his living God and our community. He has many gifts that are perfect for the village and perhaps a little "shake-up" wouldn't do any harm to this "sleepy" parish! The question "What would Jesus do?" - I'm sure he would forgive, and already has!, but I'm also sure he expects the congregation to unite in order to worship Him. Let's have the bells back - what is 15 minutes in the grand scheme of things?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Peter (17th Jun 2013 - 12:29:48) To the of resident of many years. how appalling !. This is a community web site, its is not to be used for slander. This does not reflect the views of the whole community, just the views of a few trouble makers. Many people admire and respect Valentine. We are in this situation because a few mindless people believe that they are above God ie ( what would JESUS do). JESUS would say ( COME JUST AS YOU ARE TO WORSHIP ) be it 8.37am 9.42am or even 11.02 pm and he would say this with Bells on ! or not as the case may be.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - thea (17th Jun 2013 - 16:55:18) I attended this Sunday's service (without bells) and found it uplifting. My daughter, along with four or five other children, enjoyed Sunday school, thanks to the help of a lovely mum from Bramshott. The church warden was kind and helpful and the coffee afterwards was fantastic - the best I have had in church. Valentine was all smiles, although he looked tired as well he might. There was a sense of love and communion in that sacred space. I'm sorry if some people physically cannot attend the service which is apparently the case and I would like to offer my assistance to anyone who needs a lift or any other help.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Tom (17th Jun 2013 - 23:21:52) Peter......the only person who thinks they are above God is Valentine........and maybe thats why he is thinking of using some of the new church roof fund at St Marys for funding a new youth worker at the church centre.......wake up!!!!!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Dennis (17th Jun 2013 - 23:25:53) To the resident of many years, I applaud your honesty and directness, the sooner the charlatan posing as a man of the cloth is on the road to Damascus (ie away from Liphook) the better! How the Diocese of Portsmouth can condone the bullying this person has got away with is beyond me, it is not tolerated in Schools, but is obviously permissible in The Church of England.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Phelim McIntyre (18th Jun 2013 - 13:00:56) As someone who was, until very recently, part of the Anglican Church in the village - and who left because of the treatment they and others have received at the hands of Mr Inglis-Jones, and was a member of the Church Council when he was appointed, I think I can add some of the missing facts that the pro-Inglis-Jones faction is leaving out. Firstly, Mr Inglis-Jones is Priest-in-Charge not the Rector (though he likes to refer to himself as Vicar). To many this may not mean much but legally it means that Mr Inglis-Jones does not have the freehold of the Parish and does not have the full power of the Rector. Secondly, there are two services every Sunday morning at St Mary's and one at the Church Centre. Mr Inglis-Jones' two predecessors who were happy to attend the 8am service at Bramshott and then attend either the service at St Mary's or the Church Centre, alternating between the two buildings. Mr Inglis-Jones is not happy to do this and has, against the wishes of the vast majority of the Parish, has changed services times. The claim is that this will allow Mr Inglis-Jones to be there and meet everybody who attends the services but, as Mr Inglis-Jones stated at the APCM, he will be leaving the 9.15 service before it finished to attend the 10.30 service after it started. How can Mr Inglis-Jones be there pastorally for those who attend the 9.15 service if he will never be there when the service finishes? Thirdly the 8am will finish at 8.45 if it runs on time. The next service starts 30 minutes later. The Bell Ringers can not step in and start ringing bells as soon as the 8am service finishes and need to stop the peels at least 5, if not 10, minutes to ring the single bell denoting the start of a service. This cuts down the service ringing to 20 minutes maximum from well over half an hour under the old pattern of worship. Around 40 people have left the Anglican Church in Liphook and are worshipping elsewhere because of the treatment they have received at the hands of the priest-in-charge, before we add to this the complaints from organisations and those outside of the church at their treatment at the hands of Mr Inglis-Jones. The worst thing is that all of this could have been avoided in Mr Inglis-Jones had listened to the concerns of those within the church he "leads".

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - nick (18th Jun 2013 - 18:54:00) South today (BBC1 South) have broadcast the current situation at St Marys Church didnt get all the broadcast tho any one else see it?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - duffy (18th Jun 2013 - 19:35:24) I attended Bramshott on sunday 16th june , I have to say it was a truly uplifting experience.All the staff excelled in welcoming and serving my familys needs. I attended because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. We as a family are not Christians but after hearing the service from the Vicar and I think a man called Peter ? we are eager to go again, the people in that service were so nice and if this is what being a Christian is all about, then we are well on the road to recovery

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Mrs (18th Jun 2013 - 20:19:01) All can say is "OMG"

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Anon (18th Jun 2013 - 21:26:57) This is surely all a little silly..... I can completely understand why Valentine has made the change to the service times! Change is a good thing and people just need to deal with it!!! Thus sort of argument makes me so angry....there are a lot of worse things going on in the World! I cannot see that people are going to get annoyed about the bells bring rung at 8.45, it is not early! Surely they would have nite moved near a church if the sound of the bells was going to bother them! Valentine is one of the nicest people I have met! Fact!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Richard M (18th Jun 2013 - 22:37:54) What an extraordinary thread! Clearly there are some bizarrely poisonous individuals that used to call St Mary’s home. Some of the posts above couldn't be further removed from what most rational people would associate with christianity. I can’t help but feel the local church community will be significantly stronger without you Phelim, Dennis, Tom and Resident of Many Years.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Resident of a few years (18th Jun 2013 - 23:02:55) Anon... Amen to that! I feel so sad that people supporting Val have not had a chance to have their say on TV (south today) and the Daily Mail. I totally agree with you, Valentine really is a nice guy and the services are still as uplifting as ever. So I'd like to say to everyone, take a leaf out of Duffy's book and come along and see what it's all about :-)

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Peter (18th Jun 2013 - 23:29:36) Tom :- I think its you who needs to wake up ! then you could make church on time,

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Ron (18th Jun 2013 - 23:45:02) In my personal experience of Valentine, I have found him to be considerate, gentle and loving full of God\'s Spirit. We are not regular church goers, but he gave us prayer & a blessing when we visited the church earlier in the year, totally spontaneously, which made our wedding anniversary very special and one we shan\'t forget. We have no doubt he is a man of God and is doing his very best for the local church and should be supported by his congregation with love. May we respectfully suggest that the congregation meditates on:- Colossians Chapter 3 verses 12 - 15

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Peter (19th Jun 2013 - 00:18:25) Richard M. Never a truer word spoken. phlegm your Ego is staggering. Do you actually believe ? if Val did leave,that you could just waltz back into the CC like nothing has ever happened ........

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Isa (19th Jun 2013 - 08:15:59) Bramshott bellringer again. Can I pull this thread back to the point. Following the item on South Today and some of the views expressed on this thread I would like to say that the dispute between Valentine and the ringers is one of safety (This is our main concern as well expressed by Simon, note we have no ringers called Simon) , practicality and concern for the community. All we ask for is a 15 minute bigger gap between the 8am service and the next one. I have 2 questions: 1) For those who attended the new service time, both those who contributed so far to this thread and those who have not. I am glad that your experience of the service was a positive one and I hope that you will continue to attend an early service. My question to you is, would the service being at 9:30 stop you attending, if so, why? 2) For those who attend the Church Centre services: Your services have been moved by 1 hour (only one change and by a much lesser amount than those at St Mary's). Valentine has said to us that the service at the Church Centre cannot be moved to 10:45 as it would reduce the number of people in the congregation. I find this very difficult to believe. Please could someone explain why this would be the case? 15 minutes may seem a small amount to some, but it means the world to the ringers.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Resident of a few years (19th Jun 2013 - 09:06:58) Hi Isa, As someone who regulary attends both services, I have to say that I agree with you in principal - 10.45 would not be a problem for myself and many others. However I am not a member of the PCC, and I know that this matter was voted on and Val did go with the majority vote (and in fact a couple of the votes that would have been for him weren't able to vote and he automatically put them down as against). Val has spent a lot of time praying about this - God knows the reasons. The Rev'd has never had a bad word to say about anyone. He speaks the truth and is an extremely forgiving and spiritual person. I feel the anger felt by a lot of people is over the top - he has not personally insulted them, he's just trying to do his job. As for people saying he doesn't listen - it's just not true. If someone is in trouble spiritually or emotionally he goes out of his way to listen and pray for them and guide them. Sorry - got away from the point there :-). Just one last thought - apart from tradition... why can't we not have some of your lovely bells at the end of the service. Val has suggested this and it could be the answer to all the problems?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Phelim McIntyre (19th Jun 2013 - 10:16:40) Richard M - at the APCM one elderly member of the church stated that because they needed help getting up from a care worker they would not be able to get to the 9.15 service to which Mr Inglis-Jones told them "well, you can always go elsewhere). How pastoral is that? You also miss a major point, as do those who have been saying that a shake up is good and needed (yes change is needed but a change imposed is a change opposed). The point is this: In the Herald Mr Inglis-Jones argues that he needs to be at every service so he can see those who only attend church every few weeks. But to attend the 10.30 service and preach there Mr Inglis-Jones will needs to, and indeed admitted that he will be, leaving the 9.15 service BEFORE the service has ended. Please explain to me how Mr Inglis-Jones can be there for people pastorally who attend 9.15 service if he leaves the service before it ends? Since leaving the Church Centre I have had phone calls and emails asking me when I will be back and when I explain that I am unwilling to worship there while Mr Inglis-Jones is the priest in charge I get messages of support. And the bells of St Mary and the service change time is only one small part of the upset. At one of Mr Inglis-Jones first church council meetings an agenda item was "service liturgy". This was the first anyone knew about this. Mr Inglis-Jones then dropped a copy of an order of service on the table with the words "this is the new service at Bramshott", a service that had got rid of the traditional language. Mr Inglis-Jones has stripped the service at the Church Centre of liturgy to such an extent they are no longer lawful under Church of England law. I have had people stop me to complain that Mr Inglis-Jones has grabbed them as they walk past him as he sits outsides the cafe, grabbed them as they work in the garden, as they sit in the pub, queue for their fish and chips, stating that "he has to pray for them" and starts to pray without asking if it is OK. That groups have asked Mr Inglis-Jones to do the prayers at a Christmas, Harvest or Easter service and he never got back to them or turned up. That, when he is on committees, Mr Inglis-Jones is not interested in what they have done in the past and not interested in other people's idea. Before being ordained r Inglis-Jones was the worship leader (he lead the singing) at a large church in London where the congregation are young professionals, a church that mainly uses modern worship songs, hence his preference for the service at the Church Centre. Also, before he was ordained Mr Inglis-Jones was an accountant in the City of London with KPMG. To too many people, both within the community and in the Church, Mr Inglis-Jones is treating their spiritual faith with the same lack of concern as the bankers he worked with showed the investments. And this is not the first time he has caused this problem. Mr Inglis-Jones, according to him, almost caused a church split at the church he came to us from. In the national magazine of a church organisation that both the Church Centre and the church Mr Inglis-Jones came from is linked to carried an article by the new minister at the church Mr Inglis-Jones came from which opened with the claim that when the new minister arrived there he found a congregation that needed healing because of recent events! If we, as a member of the church council who personally supported the appointment of Mr Inglis-Jones, had known this then we would not have supported Mr Inglis-Jones appointment as priest-in-charge. I looked forward to working with Mr Inglis-Jones but will not be dictated to in the way Mr Inglis-Jones does. This quote that came from a member of community organisation, says things clearly. "He wants people to work with him, but he does not want to work with you."

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - A. Ryan (19th Jun 2013 - 10:28:11) I have been appalled at this thread, I am an atheist and have been for about 40 years, Nothing I see or hear would make me change, but the people on this thread are astounding! They call themselves Christians? How can you sleep at night with such vicious thoughts in your head. The poor Vicar must have wondered what had hit him arriving in such a beautiful village. You have made a mountain out of a mole hill and have done it with some very bitter behaviour. You say the vicar does not own the church, neither do you, you are passing through as many have done before and will do after. Yes people have obviously spent time and money on the church, but that does not give you the right to lay your laws down. That is the crux of the matter really, your noses have been put out of joint. You have become too cosy in your own little world and do not want change , if it suits more people, who are you to deny it. It says it all really that the Daily Mail picked up on this, I bet most of the bitter people are readers of this paper.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Sue H (19th Jun 2013 - 12:01:35) A Ryan. I totally agree with your comments. I'm appalled at how vicious and un Christian some of the posts are on this thread.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Isa (19th Jun 2013 - 12:07:52) Firstly to A Ryan. I can understand your comments regarding some of the things posted on this thread, but does this go as far as the things that I, and other ringers have posted? If you look at my last post I have not insulted everyone, I have not said that the service times should not be changed. We have genuine safety issues as well as not wanting to disturb the neighbours before 9am on a Sunday morning. All we have asked for is a slight movement of the new service time to 9:30am. This is not being cosy in our own little world, we have already accepted one change and are prepared to change again, but we cannot due to reasons mentioned already ring before 9am, and to start at 9am for a 9:15 service does not give us enough time. Secondly to "resident of a few years". We have the same safety issues with ringing after the 9:15 service as we do after the 8am, with some extra things which make ringing difficult. There is still an amount of putting away of items required for the service, in fact there is more to put away after this service than the earlier one. So we have an issue of many items which need to be moved through the area where we ring as previously outlined. Secondly coffee is served after the service. If as hoped the new service times attracts young families there may be an issue with the young children wandering down to see the ringing and get too close. We have had issues at weddings where we have had to abruptly stop ringing because of a child getting too close to the ropes. The amount of damage which can be done to a body by the action of a bell can be considerable, I have seen the results and it is not pretty. We do not want anyone to get injured. Also, like any performer, the chat can be quite loud and distracting, we can get through, but it is not easy. Finally, the organist plays a voluntary at the end of the service. This actually drowns out the sound of the bells when we are trying to ring, we cant hear what we are doing, which we need to do. So it would be at least 15 minutes following the end of the service before we could even consider starting, then by the time we had prepared the bells for ringing, another 5 minutes, many of the people would have gone. This does not even take into account that the idea of ringing the bells is to call TO worship. To use a concert analogy, would you put the support band on after the main event! Many of the problems highlighted by the ringers here are due to the position we ring from. There would be much less of a problem if we rang from either the West end of the church like many others (e.g. Selborne), or in an upstairs ringing room such as at Liss. Safety is, and always will be, our main concern. The thing about ringing before 9am is important to us as ringers, but it does come second to the safety aspect.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Ellie (19th Jun 2013 - 12:45:32) The christian faith pre dates the Church of England by about 1500 years. The Church of England came into being through Henry the Eighths desire to divorce Catherine of Aragon and replace her with Anne Boleyn. Truly Christian people I have known do not sometimes go to church, and we have become so bogged down by details and rituals that the new testament is forgotten. I have always been impressed that valentine is enthusaistic about his faith and wants to impart that enthusiasm to the people of Liphook.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - A. Ryan (19th Jun 2013 - 13:59:07) Isa, The remarks that have been made on this subject, are I believe a matter of conscience to the writer of each comment. Suffice to say some have been more verbally bitter with their words than others. Some have been damn right rude about a member of the church. My point was to state that the behaviour of so called Christians falls well below the behaviour that decent folk would expect. As to the matter of the bells, is this not health and safety gone mad. Could not a form of barrier be put out to prevent young children from becoming entangled in the ropes. ( the mind boggles) I would have thought it was far more dangerous walking from the car to the church on a Sunday morning.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - david and joy lush (19th Jun 2013 - 16:18:08) fully agree with a ryans comments.dont consider the rest of you are behaving in a christian manner.if the church is going to survive,the younger generation need to be encouraged to attend church . We respectfully suggest that the tone of some of your correspondents will have the opposite effect and will only add to the ever-declining congregations of recent years. Like many in the local community we are non-churchgoers and this kind of near slanderous comment regarding the local vicar is not what one would expect to see from persons of the Christian faith and is absolutely the wrong way to attract new people to the Church.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Dee (19th Jun 2013 - 22:55:10) Maybe we should just go back to the original time of the service at St . Marys .... 10.30 . it seemed to work for parishioners and bellringers alike.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Isa (20th Jun 2013 - 08:27:40) Well the thing with the children is a very small part, and things have been tried in the past - but they can be very resourceful :-) Well my attempt to get this thread back to talking about the issue seems to have failed. I agree than many of the comments here are a personal rant rather than being helpful. One thing you can say about Valentine is that he does provoke strong feelings in people! I would still welcome some more input from people who attend either service about whether the service being 15 minutes later would cause a problem, but I am unlikely to make any further comment on this thread now.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Yessam (20th Jun 2013 - 14:52:19) Oh Dee you are so right That would be the perfect solution. We have tried changing the times and it hasnt worked but is Valentine big enough to say this and draw us all together again He would be so admired if he did this.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Diane (20th Jun 2013 - 17:05:46) Just out of interest how many people attend Sunday services at the church and in the Church center on average each week?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - H (21st Jun 2013 - 15:48:10) Looking back over the years, the threads on this forum that have attracted the most posts are invariably those to do with CHANGE. Some accept change, some won’t. Some will fight passionately for their views, others are resigned or apathetic. Whatever the issue at stake, if there are two opposing sides, both are convinced that their facts and opinions are correct, and they dig in to defend their position at all costs. It's often not what is said but the way it is said that gets people fired up. When an issue like this arises where there are differences of opinion, if people on both sides would debate simply on the merits of whether the change is beneficial to the majority or not, and keep it rational and impersonal, the best possible outcome in the circumstances will usually eventually be reached, invariably by compromise. But this often doesn’t happen because there are unfortunately some people who allow their personal emotions to interfere with rational thought. They treat issues as battles to be won rather than simply as problems to be solved by mutual discussion. One of the weapons these people use is personal ad hominem attacks on the other side in order to try to turn the battle to their advantage. (We are not given good role models for this by politicians!) When someone has dished the dirt about an individual on the opposing side, they may feel smug and triumphant that now it's all public, their views are vindicated. But they do this at the risk of revealing their judgemental and even vindcitive natures to the rest of us. They may convince themselves that they are doing a public service by revealing previously hidden apparently important information about an individual on a forum, but usually the motive is much more sef-serving. Ultimately this adversarial way of sorting problems means everyone loses something and the biggest casualty is usually the truth. I do not go to Church or have any connection with it, but I believe that if someone feels Mr Inglis Jones is not suitable for his role, they should be taking this up with his superiors in the Diocese and not posting allegations about him on public forums. (He obviously has some sense as he has not tried to defend himself here whilst the wolves are baying!) The bell ringing issue should be debated by the Parochial Church Council, having thoroughly consulted all those who are affected, and the majority view then accepted. If only it were that simple!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Thomas Doubting (21st Jun 2013 - 18:23:45) Those who are disappointed by the apparently 'un-Christian' attitudes of some church members on this thread should perhaps read the New Testament and they would then not be so shocked..... All but one of the early Christian congregations (Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians etc), were constantly being admonished by the Apostle Paul to stop the infighting and divisions amongst themselves. Even Paul himself had a bitter disagreement and fell out with his fellow evangelist Barnabus and they went their separate ways. This pattern has continued over the centuries and is the main reason why we have so many different Christian denominations. Contrary to what people like to think, Christianity is not all about peace. Jesus said (Matt 10:34 - 35)... ‘Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law". So although not an edifying spectacle, the current divisions within St Mary's are not unusual and in fact are fairly typical of groups of Christians, contrary to the perception of the majority of outsiders. A church in Chiddingfold has apparently recently lost two thirds of its members due to a difference of opinion between two factions, it's not just Bramshott where this is occurring. Christians are no different than the rest of us, they do not have a magic formula to make them kinder or more forgiving. There are just as many good, altruistic and caring people in the ranks of the Hindus, Jews, Mormons, Thor worshippers, Pagans and atheists as there are to be found in Christian churches. A final point; whatever their personal views, if the congregation members who are currently opposing the Rector are true bible believing Christians, they should perhaps consider their position in the light of Hebrews 13:17 ....... " Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit."

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Mrs (22nd Jun 2013 - 09:09:54) Dear Thomas Doubting, I am also sure, God gave us a tongue to talk about things that we feel are not right?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Outsider (22nd Jun 2013 - 12:05:57) It had totally passed me by that the Parish of Bramshott was so full of people with such hate in their hearts, comments like "I can not worship when HE is in charge" are at such odds with the basic Christian message. When such evil events like the civil war in Syria are taking place the time and trouble taken to pour vitriol over something as unimportant as bell ringing shames you all.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Thomas Doubting (23rd Jun 2013 - 00:00:27) Dear Mrs With reference to your statment: "I am also sure, God gave us a tongue to talk about things that we feel are not right?" Presuming you are female, apparently not... (1 Timothy 2:11-13) Women should learn in silence and all humility. I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet. For Adam was created first, and then Eve.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Mrs (23rd Jun 2013 - 10:36:45) Re Thomas Doubting, No wonder people are turning away from the church

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Thomas Doubting (23rd Jun 2013 - 14:44:30) Re: Mrs "No wonder people are turning away from the church " Or maybe it’s just that god has not chosen the people who are turning away? (1John 2:19) “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.” (Matthew 22:14) “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - paul (23rd Jun 2013 - 15:04:49) Hi, Why such a ho-ha? On the BBC News website is says bell ringers do not want to disturb villagers at 0845hrs start. Bramshott is not a highly populated area, there is no housing estate, why the fuss for a small parish. Do the bell ringers like an earlier start on their Sunday? maybe not is the answer.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Paul Robinson (23rd Jun 2013 - 19:30:48) Re 1 Timothy 2:11-13 And I thought it was the Taliban that had the corner on medieval treatment of women . . . Paul Robinson

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Mrs (23rd Jun 2013 - 22:31:09) I am sure that God loves us all.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - AveCl (24th Jun 2013 - 09:50:24) To Paul Look back at the thread a bit and you will see the biggest problem is the lack of time between the 8am and 9:15 services. It is well explained. The ringers not wanting to ring before 9am is a subsidiary issue.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Thomas Doubting (24th Jun 2013 - 23:45:38) In reply to Mrs: “ I am sure that God loves us all” Are you sure? What about Genghis Khan, Caligula, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Fred West et al? How about the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, or even Judas Iscariot? Or even the 42 children who were brutally killed by God just because they teased a prophet for being bald? 2 Kings 2: 23 – 24 “Elisha left Jericho to go to Bethel, and on the way some boys came out of a town and made fun of him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they shouted. Elisha turned around, glared at them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces”. So if that is God’s punishment for teasing, let’s hope He loves the people of Bramshott and Liphook enough to avoid any repercussions for the bitter arguments over the ringing of bells and times of Sunday services. So in light of this bible story, perhaps some members of St Mary’s Church ought to be just a little cautious as to how they talk about their Rector…?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - ellie (25th Jun 2013 - 11:44:29) Thge only way to judge the vicar is to attend his services. I am sure that if his atendances are dreadful then the powers that be in the church of England will not be silent on the way he conducts his services!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - tony (25th Jun 2013 - 18:46:30) There are loads of different religions, even within the Christian church there are hundreds of different denominations. irrespective of biblical argument (which is endless and easily contradicted), the Church of England being started by Henry VIII is very unlikely to be the one true church. Within any church there are (or should be) the zealously religious types right through to the take it or leave it types. I think that's what a group like the Church of England should be, a sort of community with different views and meeting real current needs of it's society (in this instance the community of Liphook). The fact that they are arguing with each other some of the time should not then be seen as a weakness, rather as evidence that it's thriving and matters to people. This Valentine sounds interesting, if I get a Sunday off work soon I might just pop along to see...

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Susan (26th Jun 2013 - 22:41:42) The question to ask is: why are any of these people going to Church at all? I recall that the Lord Jesus Christ received this kind of treatment from the Pharisees and Sadducees and called them hypocrites according to the New Testament. Food for thought....?

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - ellie (28th Jun 2013 - 14:15:41) I think that the issue of the bellringing has turned into whether or not Valentine is a good vicar? It is a very subjective subject and I have not witnessed him being anything other than very polite to everyone, and trying to encourage people to go to church. I do not think though that going to church matters as much as being a good person. Some of the most bigoted inhuman people go to church!

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - A. Ryan (28th Jun 2013 - 19:53:50) Yes Ellie, I think this all turned for the worst at the posting of Tom's reply, then Resident of many years and Phelim felt brave enough to poor vitriol on to troubled waters. The question is why, if others are happy with Valentine ? To the outsider, this is very, we were in charge till you stuck your nose in, behaviour. There have been no new postings berating the vicar, so one can assume they have forgiven him (is that not what Jesus would do?) or they feel extremely ashamed of themselves. Both would ideally be the best outcome.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Sarah (30th Jun 2013 - 10:40:29) I am not religious myself, but perhaps some people involved in this fiasco might like to be reminded of 1 Corinthians 13, wise words whether you're religious or not. It was not actually written specifically about romantic love, but in fact by Paul the apostle to his congregation and the Christian community about how they should regard each other: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. I suppose the first part "It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth." might be the most relevant here. Some very un-Christian behaviour and attitudes have been on show in this thread and I do seriously wonder why on earth you bother calling yourself a Christian if you feel that it is appropriate to act in this ridiculous way about such a simple issue!!! Surely you can work out between yourselves without all this slander, a way that everyone can be happy with the timing of bell ringing. It seems beyond petty that you'd be happy to ring the bells 15 minutes later - 15 minutes is really nothing let's be honest! It did make me smile when before 9am this morning one of my lovely neighbours started mowing their lawn.... Now THAT is anti-social and inconsiderate on a Sunday morning - church bells that have been chiming every Sunday for hundreds of years on the other hand, is only to be expected if you live within earshot of a church. Let's get things into perspective here folks! There are so many huge and terrible issues in this world for us to spend our time worrying about, this is not one of them, and I think some people should be wholly embarrassed about their over-reaction to this issue.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - Michael Orme (13th Jul 2013 - 19:07:37) The problem with some vicars is that they make changes regardless of opinion and as a result members of the congregation vote with their feet. The Vicar moves on leaving a divided community and the new Vicar, poor soul, has to pick up the pieces.

Re: The Bells Of St Mary Bramshott - A. Ryan (13th Jul 2013 - 22:12:40) If a community, and a religious one at that is so easily divided, what does that say about the village and it's people and far wider, the human race with religious "politics " dividing people, and this between their own congregation and vicar! I suggest that they take their silly hates off and stop being so pedantic.

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