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Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mr Smith (9th Mar 2004 - 12:25:15) Reading back through some previous posts Ive noticed some references to traffic problems in Liphook, and a well known nay infamous supermarkets ultimate responsibilty. For the last 2 years I have travelled through Liphhook on my way to work and have, at times ,been appalled by the traffic congestion. However at other times the roads have been a joy and my passage through the village has gone completely unchecked. I began to wonder what could be causing this. Obviously my first thought was to check the Supermarket delivery days, they being at the root of the problem after all, but alas there was no correlation. Next I studied their opening hours. Were they shutting some days for staff training? Time and time again my investigation was thwarted. What dark powers could be at work? What reason could there possibly be? The truth when it finally came out had nothing to do with huge retail food outlets, food deliveries, or happy shoppers. The answer lay in my sons school timetable. Put simply, the cause of the problem is not a supermarket, is not the village being used as a rat run, it is parents, usually alone, and usually with one child in the back seat completing their morning school run. Next time the school closes for holidays pay attention to the levels of traffic in the village. No delays, no tailbacks almost to passfields, just a smooth journey through the village and onto work. It is the issue of how school children are arriving at their destination that needs addressing, not the issues a supermarket brings , and then maybe, just maybe a solution can be found

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Freddie Dawkins (9th Mar 2004 - 13:34:35) Mr Smith - The Infant and Junior schools do have completed Travel Plans. Problem is, most parents are too worried by traffic to allow kids to walk to school. There seems to be a real problem in finding some parents to organise things like walking crocodiles. It's also proving impossible to employ a school crossing patrol at the corner of Headley Road and The Avenue. It's a problem common across the the county. The solution? I don't think there will be one. Just glad I don't have to commute out of Liphook every day! Freddie Dawkins

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Steve (10th Mar 2004 - 11:43:45) Jeez, It took you that long to realise that? You only have to look at the masses of Land Rovers, MPV's and 4x4's with one woman and one child in them going through the village to realise the problem. Not to mention their general disregard for other road users and pedestrians that they seem to have. When I was a kid living in Liphook 20 years ago, I walked nearly 2 miles to school, so did all my friends. All our parents had cars but we still walked, even in the rain and snow. So why the change now? Lazyness thats what. No wonder obesity in children is becoming the norm in the UK. Also with the huge housing development that is Sainsburys bringing X amount more children and mothers with it you can't rule that out as part of the problem. To be fair though Liphook isn't alone in this problem but Half term and end of term is a blissful drive.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mike Grimes (12th Mar 2004 - 01:05:34) Most of the comments on school traffic seen to centre on the additional 'Sainsbury's' houses. I would like to point out that the number of children at the local primary schools was actually greater before the development than it is now because of government enforced restriction of class sizes. This sugests that before Sainsbury's there were more children attending from out of Liphook than there are today. They would certainly need to be driven to school whereas many of those children from the Sainsbury's development do actually walk to school. I, personally, insist that my children walk to school whenever practicable but negotiating the roads with small children in the morning can be quite a challenge. Unforunately, the most inconsiderate drivers often tend to be the mothers driving their own children to school. But if every schoolchild in Liphook walked to school there would be 2000 of them converging on the two campuses (many via the square). This would ensure almost permanent use of necessary pedestrian crossings for a while in the morning. I don't suppose that those that have a problem with traffic in Liphook in the morning could, perhaps, get up earlier.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Steve (12th Mar 2004 - 14:40:45) I agree getting up earlier is the best solution, something that I already do. I also agree that the most inconsiderate drivers are the mothers in their 4x4's or big cars on the school run yet they are also the first to whinge at other road users. Some of them need to perhaps take a seperarte test for driving safely in built up areas with larger vehicles. Whatever happened to the school buses? Why can't they be deployed around the Liphook area too. This I believe is the kind of thing they have in the states, bigger areas I know but surely it could work. When I was at Bohunt all the children from Liss and surrounding areas came to school in the bus the children from Liphook walked.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mike Grimes (19th Mar 2004 - 00:13:57) Good to see that the vitriol from this thread has made the Herald this week. Does this mean that the Herald editorial team are reading what we say, or are certain individuals priming them? Either way it is nice that our opinions can now be read by the gardeners of Liphook.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Freddie Dawkins (19th Mar 2004 - 00:35:11) Hi, Mike - I've been contacted twice by reporters from the Herald - Jenny Mouland and Steve (not sure of his surname). The Herald has only recently switched on to this site and now uses it as one of its news-gathering channels. I understand the Herald has some form of agreement with the Ed. to use material from here. I know this thread was being researched and received a call from Steve, asking for my permission to reproduce some of my earlier comment. I agreed - but only if Ed. had already given his permission. Not seen the Herald this week, so look forward to reading it in the morning. rgds Freddie (Gnome) Dawkins

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Alex Cameron (19th Mar 2004 - 01:19:35) "LOCAL FURY OVER TRAFFIC TAILBACK SHOCK" In other news: pope reported to still be catholic, bears appear to defecate in woods

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mike Grimes (19th Mar 2004 - 12:12:54) I have read this week of a 5 year old proposal for a cycle path from Manor Fields through to the Bohunt School. Is there anywhere that one could view the exact route that this may/will take together with further details of it's construction? Mike.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mike Gardner (19th Mar 2004 - 12:16:08) As a resident of the Avenue estate, I'm sort of resigned to the weekday health-hazard otherwise known as "Liphook-mum-on-wheels". What totally confounds me though, is their collective inability to indicate left or right. Is this simply due to them not actually knowing which is which and therefore opting for the "no signal is better than the wrong one" solution? Or is it that they've yet to work out just what that irritating little stick on the side of the steering wheel is actually for ?

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Freddie Dawkins (19th Mar 2004 - 12:32:22) Mike (Grimes) - yep, all the cycleway plans are in the Parish Office and open to the public. 10-4, Monday-Friday but closed 1-2pm for lunch. rgds Freddie

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Barry Hope (23rd Mar 2004 - 12:01:14) The subject of traffic congestion is certainly generating a high degree of interest as I thought it might. This is an ongoing problem which the residents of The Avenue, Longmoor Road and Avenue Close have been complaining about for a number of years (indeed it was the main reason why became a parish councillor). The traffic management plan (TMP) that Freddie Dawkins refers to was put together a year ago and came out of suggestions made by a joint working party involving the Police, Parish Council, Highways Authority, Local Schools, Residents and Parents Representatives. The TMP has not (to date) been implemented and has sat at Winchester for all that time. It has recently been referred to in EHDC's response to the planning application from HCC to install an extra classroom at Liphook Infant School. EHDC lodged their objection to the application based on (amongst other things) the comments contained in 29 letters of objection received from local residents around the affected areas, The objection stated, and I quote: "Any new classroom should be agreed following the implementation of a TMP. A TMP has been submitted with the application dated April 2003. This is full of a programme of works with suggestions for safe routes to schools and statements that are at best vague eg: Governors are willing to implement all tasks given them by the plan? and the school will encourage 'walk to school weeks'. All very worthy statements but not really credible in terms of actual implementation and delivery." EHDC go on to say "The reduction in traffic in Avenue Close and surrounding residential areas at peak times may possibly be achieved with the co-operation of the parents if the difficulties are clearly explained and a form of Traffic Management Scheme is firmly established but this is only a part answer. This in association with encouragement for parents/children to walk where possible from reasonable distances could solve the problem". There final comment was "There is no clear evidence that this has been implemented with any degree of success. Officers are of the view that a more substantive approach is required for the additional parking and existing parking problems that will arise. Their needs to be an increase in visible parking spaces on this site and a scheme for a designated dropping off point where vehicles can drive up, drop off the children and then continue on their way". This is exactly what we have been saying for years and I am glad to see that at least EHDC are taking note and are in agreement. There really has to be a concerted effort by all stautory bodies to think in a joined up way and to plan ahead for the next 5, 10, 20 years or so to ensure that the infrastructure of Liphook is in place to cope with the extra demands that will placed upon the area (including schooling, leisure, shops and housing). If this does not happen then Liphook is in danger of developing in a peice meal fashion which cannot be good for anyone living here. Lastly, if anyone is interested, the application for the additional classroom for the Liphook Infant School is being heard at Winchester on 31st March (those of you who wrote in with objections should have received a letter giving details). I have already registered my interest at attending the meeting and have informed the panel that I wish to speak at their meeting. As a parish councillor and a resident of Avenue Close I am fully aware of the problems and am quite happy to represent the views of those who wrote to EHDC giving the same views as were expressed in those letters. Watch this space for the outcome of the planning meeting!

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - K lewis (23rd Mar 2004 - 21:36:50) My first visit to this site, prompted the article in last weeks Herald. I have this evening written a reply to said article but I don`t expect it will be printed, I am afterall just a mere woman and mother and a driver of one of those awful 4 x 4`s. (yes I have noticed that every other visitor to this site is a man!!). Why don`t you all stop moaning, traffic chaos is here to stay, at least until Liphook is totally re-designed and that is never going to happen and until every single child killer or pervert is locked up and I don`t see that ever happening either. Incidently, I walk my child to and from school each day and I am a lifelong resident so consider I have right to some sort of comment about the situation

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Freddie Dawkins (23rd Mar 2004 - 22:45:51) Dear K Lewis - Great to see that we have a woman contributing here. You're right, far too many men. Being a man, and a 4x4 driver, I was not exactly pleased when I saw some of the content in last week's story in the Herald. Especially as I was quoted from messages earlier in this thread. Believe me, when I tell you that men driving 4x4's get the same abuse as women, but women do seem to be more of a target in the media. I don't have young kids any more - but I do have large working dogs, lots of chickens and other livestock - who regularly get moved around, on and off-road, in the 4x4 or the attached trailer. So for anyone to generally knock 4x4's is rubbish, as far as I'm concerned. But the problem, as you say, is not a new one. 20 years ago I was seeing the same stories in newspapers in the London suburbs where I used to live. Barry Hope's message just above sums up the present situation well - oh yes, and Barry has only just sold his 4x4. (sorry Barry, might as well come clean before someone has a go!;). So, more power to you, K.Lewis, for sticking your head above the parapet. And just a reminder of some of the earlier observations here, about car drivers and their attitude to stopping for Kids, Mums and Dads, trying to cross on the corner of Headley Road and The Avenue: I've spent quite a few hours there in the afternoons, measuring traffic flows, counting traffic, numbers of pedestrians etc, to strengthen the case for a better and safer crossing/control. It still amazes me how many drivers, men and women, of 4x4's and just about every other model and style of car, truck, van and motorbike wil not stop to allow pedestrians to cross. Even when there's no other vehicle in sight, drivers still show no sign of giving way to pedestrians when it would be quite safe to stop for a few seconds. We need, somehow, to improve driver understanding of pedestrian needs, especially children's needs, and to campaign to educate school drivers to park responsibly - and away from the obvious and well-known choke poinnts around the Infants and Juniors. rgds to all here. Freddie

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Freddie Dawkins (23rd Mar 2004 - 22:58:04) Sorry, I meant to include this link. It shows the current vacancies for crossing patrols in this area - and you can also link off this page to others, giving a lot more info on the crossing patrol teams' work, school travel plans etc etc. http://www.hants.gov.uk/roadsafety/ schoolcrossingvacancies/areaeast.html

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Alex Cameron (24th Mar 2004 - 00:34:17) I'm not a parent, and i can understand the very legitimate concerns about the safety of children. But just how many child killers and paedophiles have and/or do roam the streets of liphook?

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mike Grimes (24th Mar 2004 - 00:38:09) Ms K I really do not see what your overall point is but I would like to comment on some of the sentiment. 1) Drivers of [awful] 4x4's who don't actually use them to drive their children to school are not a problem. 2) Should most of the men who post on this site stop posting in order to make it more 'inclusive' for women? 3) Isn't it paradoxical that someone who walks their own children to school claims that everybody else drives their children to school because alledged child murderers and rapists walk the streets? 4) As a resident of Liphook you do have a right to comment - and you exercised it. My own rant is about point 3). How many of the people who cocoon their children from strangers actually know that over 80% of child sexual abuse is perpetrated from within the childs family? Rather less than 1% is perpetrated from school contact. (I would expect zero to not much on the accompanied school walk). Recently, when positive vetting became compulsory for all school staff and a backlog of vetting forced schools to send children home (when they should have been taught) because school staff had not yet been positively vetted, many children would have been 'cared for' by members of their family that were not their parents. I, personally, am not teaching my children that every stranger is potentially bad. Hopefully, it won't be true.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mike Grimes (24th Mar 2004 - 01:07:27) Barry, I can fully understand the concerns of residents of Avenue Close and also of parents of children that use the Liphook Junior & Infant schools that the current 'child delivery and collection system' is not good. That is a major problem, in itself, and needs dealing with. It is not acceptable to attempt to apply leverage to this problem by resisting a solution to a different problem. I, of course, refer to the proposed additional classroom at Liphook Infant School. The ridiculous situation of mixed year group classes cannot be allowed to continue to the detriment of many children (who only get one go at education) when one extra classroom (8 to 9) will completely solve the problem and is now funded by HCC. My wish is withdrawl of any local objection to the extra classroom but a push for implementation of a good Traffic Management Plan. I see the objection to the classroom as a hostage taking situation and doing more harm than good.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Steve (24th Mar 2004 - 14:05:32) The answer to your point Alex is the same statistic as it was 30 years ago, yes for all the parents 30 years a bloddy go. Kids are no more likely to be kidnapped or abducted now then they were just after Man landed on the moon. This is a documented fact. The problem is the way it's being reported in the media. So to Mrs 4 x 4 I've lived in Liphook all my life, it's great that you walk your children to school but do you do it even in the rain or bad weather? How many times have other mothers nearly run you over whilst driving their 4x4's to work. How many of them actually know there are two roundabouts in the middle of Liphook? Most of them just seem to drive straight over them. Does anyone think there should be a further driving test for mothers with 4x4's and large motor vehicles? Maybe not a test but a road awareness/vehicle control course or something. It seems to be that there are a lot of women who are unsure how to handle such a large vehicle safely. It's a lot bigger than a corsa you know.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Barry Hope (24th Mar 2004 - 19:27:26) Wow, didn't realise that this was such an emotive subject. Just a few comments on what has been added so far. Mike, I fully understand your point and I would like to make it clear that I, and as far as I am aware, all the other 29 objectors are not opposed to the additional classroom as such, indeed I have made this point on many occasions. I think we understand the very real need for it. What we are opposed to however, is the way in which this and other applications are passed by EHDC (and HCC in this case, if they do), without due regard to the very real impact on the local infrastructure. It is a recognised fact that Bordon and Whitehill went down this route over a long period of time and is only recently being considered as an area that needs some new life breathing into it. What I and others don't want to see is Liphook put under so much strain in terms of resources and facilities that it becomes the major talking point (we are by dint of this site, seeing it pop up us a major discussion topic). Of course the School should have an extra classroom and any thing else it needs to create a conducive environment to high quality learning, but not, as HCC propose, at the expense of other sectors of the community. With regards to 4x4’s and other types of vehicle, I don’t really think this is relevant to the argument and certainly doesn’t help. As Freddie rightly said (thanks Freddie), I have recently sold my Discovery (bought for legitimate health and lifestyle purposes) and have changed to a saloon car. This does not mean however that I use my car any the less. The real problem is (and I am a realist by nature) that today’s life style almost dictates that both partners in many of today’s families work in order to maintain their lifestyle at present day costs, especially with house prices so high and the related mortgage costs. This means that quite often, parents need to drop their children off and then continue on their way to work All the talk and good intentions in the world about safe routes to schools, walking buses, etc etc will not put an end to this. This is modern day living and we cannot easily escape it. The biggest contribution to traffic congestion is lack of forward planning in terms of provisions for the needs of a rapidly growing community (and Liphook is growing whether we like it or not). This is my major concern as already stated which I believe HCC, EHDC, B&LPC and all concerned local residents should be debating and coming up with some tangible and acceptable solutions. One thing is for sure, if we allow piece meal development to take place then we will regret it in the not too distant future. I also note the comments by the very welcome K Lewis (congratulations on speaking up and walking your children to School). I must say however that (as with comments on 4x4’s) the comments made about perverts etc being a reason for not walking children to School is also not helpful in this particular debate as by nature of the childrens ages, they are unlikely to be walking to School on their own but with a parent and so should be safe from that danger (not that I am aware of a great risk in Liphook thankfully). I would love to see us all, instead of arguing about the problems, put our minds together to find some acceptable and workable solutions to the congestion problems, so if you have any then maybe we ought to start a new topic “Positive Suggestions for Liphook” As a parent myself of four boys, all of whom went to local schools, I know how difficult it is to balance demands of work and travel responsibilities and would like to offer my support to all those parents out there that do such a good job in a demanding role, its certainly not your fault that congestion happens, you happen to be the unwilling pawns in a much wider local and national issue Best wishes Barry

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Barry Hope (24th Mar 2004 - 19:37:07) Soory about the length of the last post, I will try to keep it short next time :)> Barry ** editor note - thats ok, gives us something to read before we approve it! **

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - k lewis (24th Mar 2004 - 20:03:01) Dear Gentlemen Thank you very much for your replies and additionally your support. But what me thinks is you clearly miss my point. My grievance is that you appear to single out 4 x 4 drivers and in particular women when it would appear only a minority of women drive 4 x 4 vehicles. The congestion is caused by the laziness of parents both male and female who can`t be bothered to walk to school even when they have the time. On the subject of perverts, weirdos whatever it was not my intention to suggest that hoards of these people walk the streets of Liphook, only to point out concerns of right thinking, caring parents. Statistics on these points are not relevant until they effect you! On the point of further testing for women, yet again you make the assumption that women drivers are worse than men when insurance company statistics show women have less accidents than men. Incidently, whilst writing I would point out I am a qualified driver, with clean licence for nearly 30 years, with no accidents to my name and also am qualified to MIDAS standards! BY THE WAY YES I DO WALK MY CHILD TO SCHOOL IN ALL WEATHERS I AM A PROUD OWNER OF WELLIES & A BROLLIE!!! Finally gentlemen, if you can actually be gentlemen, please throw aside your preconceptions of women drivers and try not to be so sexist!

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - k lewis (24th Mar 2004 - 21:26:41) Wow, I`ve visited this site 3 times now, does that make me an internet junkie, next thing I`ll be writing at 1 a.m. in the morning like others seem to or is that when I should be leaving to start the school run in my 4 x 4, oh no, I`m getting so confused, I`m such a silly woman!!!!!! THANK YOU, Mr. Hope, you talk much sense. I have been at a meeting which you and your wife attended (guess what the topic was?!) and you were the only ones who talked any sense that evening too - was that because I could relate to you as a fellow 4 x 4 driver and caravanner (sorry couldn`t resist dropping that in). Quiet boys, I can here you groaning from here, a 4 x 4 driver and a caravanner, oh no!!!!!!!!! Keeping talking sense, Mr. Hope, someday someone will hopefully listen to our plight, you`ve go my vote. GOODNIGHT

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Bill Ingsgate (24th Mar 2004 - 21:39:10) Just joined the fray & first off, look out for that Lennox Lewis person!! Don't know about these 4 wheelers - men or women - being a menace on the road, I reckon the flourescent lycra-clad stick insects who pedal furiously around our roads are the real nuisance. Firstly, they don't stick to cycle-ways; secondly, they insist on riding two, three, sometimes four abreast on twisty country roads and, worst of all, they have the most appalling dress sense. Ought to pay road tax at the very least!!!

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Mike Grimes (25th Mar 2004 - 00:38:28) Barry, I think we understand each others concerns except that our priorities differ. Your children have been to the local schools, mine are are at Liphook Infant School now. They walk there and the aged 2WD compact saloon stays in the drive. Currently my children are both in single year group classes but they may not be next year. This is the dilemma facing the parents of 240 local children who have a place at the school and 30 who will not if the ninth classroom is not built. So come on BLPC, EHDC and HCC and the residents of Avenue Close, support this classroom for the sake of the 90 Liphook Children it will affect then deal, properly, with the infrastructure as a separate issue. Mike

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Eneida Nelson (25th Mar 2004 - 17:12:18) I don't wish to get involved with the explosive emotions on this thread, but I would just like to say to Ms Lewis Hi there! I'm a WOMAN too, so welcome to the site. I do sympathise with your concerns over childrens' safety as regards perverts etc. I slightly know the area around Soham and a quieter one-horse sort of place would be hard to find and yet two little girls were murdered within yards of their own homes and friends. You never know who's out there. Eneida

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - John Wingfield (25th Mar 2004 - 21:58:50) Traffic? What traffic ? As a comparitive newcomer to Liphook i have to smile every time i hear complaints about the "traffic congestion".As i spend my working day around the Heathrow area Liphook seems positively deserted by comparison and i do mean in the "rush hours" ! Also,when on foot , drivers even stop and allow me to cross at the courtesy crossings ,including "four wheel drive pram owners "! I DON't BELIEVE IT ! Come on guys ,you've never had it so good !

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Martin B (27th Mar 2004 - 13:35:53) It's not really worth criticising the ladies in their 4wds or anyone else. You have to make it worth peoples' while to change. Walking is one - to encourage this it has to be more PLEASANT than driving. Ignore rainy days - they just happen. But even on a sunny day, when my kids were at the infant school the walk was full of carbon monoxide, some quite heavy trucks, and as noted above people just not giving way (I lived the other side of the lollipop). Car sharing - I remember a neighbour ferrying 9 or 10 kids to the school in an Austin Maxi when I was little. Yes that's too many, but you're right to note the 7 seaters with one child in them. Why don't people do it anymore? And the geometry of the avenue just doens't fit with dropping off at all. Don't know what the answer could be; perhaps non-residents could be barred from the Avenue etc. at school times unless the car has 3 or more occupants? Perhaps the car park at Wavy Coop could be used too? As an aside, k noted that women have fewer accidents than men. True but it doesn't prove they're better drivers. The stats are far more convincing for HGV's : 99.4% of HGV accidents in 2001 invovled men. Does this mean that women are brilliant HGV drivers, or that amost all HGV drivers are men. And I've never let in one premiership goal, ever. Does that make me a better 'keeper than David James? I know no stats showing the miles driven by men compared to omen. Without that the evidence is irrelevant. If lots of men drive hundreds of miles selling each day, and their wives drives 200 yards to school each day, it doesn't really matter who's better - the men will have more claims.

Re: Morning Traffic Tailbacks - Steve (29th Mar 2004 - 08:56:30) If you can catch a ball you're a better goalkeeper than David James. IMO.

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