COVID and the economy - AF (8th Oct 2020 - 11:14:55)
There have been a few threads recently about the rising number of cases (mainly in the north), and what measures should be taken.
What people need to realize is that the most important thing in this and any country is the ECONOMY, everything else is secondary.
All services supplied by Government are dependent on a successful economy, the NHS, other emergency services, the armed forces, pensions, social security, bin collections, education, the railways, roads upkeep, i could go on.
As it stands the measures taken have cost staggering amounts of money which will have to be paid back, possibly over hundreds of years, if you think that's absurd when the government abolished slavery and had to pay compensation to the slave owners on the Caribbean islands the debt took over 200 years to pay, and WW1 took around 100 years to pay off.
The economy has been severely damaged and parts of it will never recover, there will be numerous businesses folding and lots of people out of work and many will become long term unemployed.
This is all due to COVID19 and despite the hype and media hysteria it is not as dangerous as some people say. The fatality rate for this condition is only 0.5% and it is primarily a disease of the elderly, by that i mean it is primarily the elderly that are liable to die of this condition and even then the majority of elderly people that get it will recover.
Of course we need to protect the elderly and in particular care homes as the residents are frail and vulnerable. However the younger people which is people under 60 need to be allowed to get on with their lives and get the economy back in a reasonable state and these punitive measures need to be withdrawn.
We need to allow the pubs and restaurants to open without restrictions and allow the theaters and live music venues to operate and stadiums to open. I understand that this will increase infections but for the younger part of the population this will be unpleasant but not deadly.
Re: COVID and the economy - Pete (8th Oct 2020 - 11:48:11)
Agreed- Have been saying for ages we went about this the wrong way (along with the majority of other countries). Shield, protect and financially assist the elderly and vulnerable and let the virus take its course among the rest of the population. Of course this didn't happen because throughout this one eye has always been kept on votes.
Re: COVID and the economy - er (8th Oct 2020 - 12:11:27)
Well latest evidence is showing even in young people with moderate severity of the illness it can cause infertility in up to 15% of people, whether this is temporary or long term is not yet clear, add this to all the other possibilities already mentioned including fatigue, respiratory illness etc and maybe the 'invincible' youth may want to reconsider waiting for a vaccine hoped for soon before raving the evenings away and singing 'I'm alright Jack it can't get me'!
Mind you I do feel terribly sad for the youngsters, thank god we never had this when we were young, but that's really just luck of the draw, we had other things and those from 1914 till maybe the 1960s had it much worse and if you go back into most of history much, much worse still.
BUT no, the economy isn't more important than people, OMG, do you really need to be told?
To put it into perspective, most of the £400billion bailout went to businesses, the amount paid to low earners was a fraction of that. While the FTSE has dropped some 30% from it's highs, they were hugely inflated highs, in fact it's only fallen modestly from it's historic averages and the DOW is up, tech is booming (probably an unsustainable bubble but where else are all the trillions of the elites tax free money supposed to be stashed?).
Most of the big struggling old economy businesses were known to be massively overextended and wallowing in debt, this long has been the capitalist plan, in the UK innovation gave way to quick, debt laden profits made by risky corporate betting. This only works in a dangerous bubble, at some point the bubble must burst wreaking great havoc and bankruptcies. In a way this has saved us from our own overstretched stupidity and greed of those who believe the music will never stop on a society sinking in debt.
In fact the wealth of the richest has grown beyond all historic records during Covid, It is they and their tax free backers (the hedge Fund billionaires in exotic tax free locations with homes in a dozen different tax havens including top of the international criminal tax haven list London) making all the money, tax free usually, since our successive governments have shown no desire to close tax loopholes for the rich, even turning a blind eye to secret offshore tax havens in our own dependent territories and why would that be?
Now we have a historic opportunity to create a fairer, more productive economy going forward, a lot of the struggling big corporations with their hands out produce very little, pay very little tax, wallow in debt whilst paying out lavish offshore dividends and profits to the owners. It's of our own creating.
There is an opportunity to rebuild a more inclusive, caring economy that creates and produces things, not just borrows and consolidates, that pays it's taxes etc.
Those are the types of businesses flourishing internationally today and that's the future we should be creating.
To hell with the old 'the economy matters more than people' lies told by governments and the media, the economy should exist for the benefit of the people, not the other way.
The debt may sound shocking to us, but when you look at it in international terms it's like me borrowing a few grand to buy a car, really!
Re: COVID and the economy - Susie (8th Oct 2020 - 12:19:44)
@ AF
Hear ! Hear !
Re: COVID and the economy - Corona (8th Oct 2020 - 12:26:25)
The economy is no use to me if I am dead.
Re: COVID and the economy - N (8th Oct 2020 - 12:50:21)
What people are not understanding here is that you can lock the elderly and clinically vulnerable down in their homes as much as you like, if the virus is circulating uncontrollably in the general population then it WILL find its way to those most at risk, those people need food & access to medical services at the very least. Lots of families have an extremely clinically vulnerable member in their household, who's sons, daughter's, parents, guardians & carers go to work/school/college, if the virus is circulating like it is now, then they WILL bring it home to those most at risk.
If you lock them and them only down whilst the rest of the country carries on as normal in a pre covid manner, you put them at an even greater risk unless of course their families are expected to give up their jobs and education and Shield with them
Re: COVID and the economy - Anon (8th Oct 2020 - 12:54:02)
AF, I have been saying this since the get go! Why should we have to pay the price to protect the elderly who can be shielded separately whilst the rest of us keep the economy going. It's a win win. Many more lives are lost through cancer, heart disease and the flu.
I have written to Damien Hinds about this matter, and have received a pointless and generic response. Something needs to be done - take a look at "Unite for Freedom" online - we are protesting this matter.
We need more people to speak out, so that this madness can stop.
Re: COVID and the economy - rolli (8th Oct 2020 - 15:06:59)
Once again it seems like the measured middle ground is being ignored by the Talkback extremists.
On the one hand you have those twerps that call Covid nonsense and are likely to be the type we have seen in other parts of the country that look to avoid wearing a mask, cram themselves into busy pubs and totally disrespect social distancing as some type of conspiracy theory.
You then have those that think there is a bottomless pit of money somewhere that will pay to keep people off work and imprisoned in there homes until a cure is found (there is a good chance there won't).
The country does need to get back to work, tax income is needed more than ever and the emotional health of the country is also at stake but we also need to treat this illness with respect, show common sense in avoiding large gatherings for the time being, wear our masks and follow social distancing. We cannot carry on as if this virus is not around and lock up our elderly, yes they do need to take additional precautions, but the rest of the population should not be too cavalier about contracting Covid, no-one knows the long term effects on our bodies which may come to haunt us in 50/60 years or so
Re: COVID and the economy - James (8th Oct 2020 - 15:23:50)
Anon,
You mention 'Unite for Freedom'. Do you mean the same people who are protesting without wearing masks, without keeping to social distancing guidelines? If so, SHAME ON YOU.
Why are people like you finding it so hard to look after and protect other people. Wearing a mask doesn't protect you, it protects others. I don't like wearing a mask, I still wear one because it protects others. Wearing a mask for 7 hours a day isn't my cup of tea but I DO IT TO PROTECT OTHERS. As for the Flu statement you are wrong. In the last 8 months Covid-19 has taken the lives of more people than the Flu and Pneumonia put together. Covid-19 is a lot worse than the Flu stop comparing it.
Get a life. People like you are scum.
Re: COVID and the economy - john (8th Oct 2020 - 19:26:10)
Those that are pushing this ECONOMY argument never tell you that they are biased as they are feeling it in the pocket, they want to push the narrative of economy over life’s as they themselves have been affected in the pocket.
It’s just pure selfishness hidden behind it, they probably have unviable jobs that used to gather lots on people in one location and rip them off for the privilege.
That was the past folks, people are dying in all age groups from this and the office for national statics say it’s killed x3 times the amount than flu and pneumonia combined.
The Economy is being held up perfectly fine by many MANY industries that don’t require crowds and or can remote work, just because pubs clubs and live venues fall away or does not mean the economy itself will disappear.
Grow a pair, change away from unviable jobs for at this rate they ain’t going to survive... no one lights the street lights anymore that got replaced... COVID is replacing all this service industry of pubs etc.
LIVES are what matter, not WALLETS
Re: COVID and the economy - passfield resident (8th Oct 2020 - 21:27:01)
If people just kept to the hands , face, space guidelines it would be possible to combine opening up the economy again with controlling Covid, but large numbers of people think rules are for other people not for them, or are just plain selfish.
Re: COVID and the economy - Pete (9th Oct 2020 - 07:22:21)
er- I agree that the economy should not be more important than people but the way of the world means it is and if economies suffer people suffer. I applaud your vision of a fairer society and wish I could have your vision and conviction but I am far too jaded to believe that this can change without a seismic shift in governmental and personal ideas and ideals.
John- If you take away the service industry there is very little left in this country (80% of UK economic output).
Passfield resident- No it wouldnt.
Re: COVID and the economy - Penny Williamson (9th Oct 2020 - 09:16:30)
Passfield Resident's post was eminently sensible. @Pete Why do you say in answer that post "No it wouldn't". Please clarify.
Re: COVID and the economy - AF (9th Oct 2020 - 21:47:28)
I'm glad to see that a number of people agree with me, i thought i was alone in my views.
By the way despite what some people seem to think what i am saying is for everyone to benefit, i am better off during the pandemic restrictions, i am in a secure job unaffected by the restrictions and spending less money due to all business being shut down, so i have more money in my pocket but can't spend it.
The service industries are vital and we must get them fully re-open.
Re: COVID and the economy - John (9th Oct 2020 - 22:19:35)
Pete.... oops! 80% of the economy is the service industry! I agree in the UK it’s big, what a massive mistake that was to create an economy based on pubs and restaurants, seems the UK gave up nearly everything that it once was and is sadly based on the frailty of everyone buying s*** they don’t even need
Re: COVID and the economy - Pete (10th Oct 2020 - 11:52:32)
John- Couldn't agree more the British economy should have never been allowed to get in a situation that we rely on the service sector so greatly.
Penny-I am not trying to belittle the efforts of people or the intentions of these measures but although undoubtedly helping it would still not be enough to totally contain the virus in a fully open economic environment. Masks are varied and not 100% effective, Social distancing would be impossible in any form of normality and hand washing is ok if you have the facilities to wash your hand every time you touch something, even with a bottle of hand gel upon your person at all times in all honesty how many people would actually use it every time they touched an object.
Re: COVID and the economy - John (11th Oct 2020 - 01:33:40)
Pete, thanks
Some off you need to look up the Swiss cheese model... google it... also take some responsibility over the media your being fed,
Re: COVID and the economy - Penny Williamson (11th Oct 2020 - 10:34:13)
Pete thank you for your post and in the main I agree with you. However I don’t think that Passfield Resident’s post implied that there is a magic way out of this because there isn’t. However large sectors of the population have not been observing the guidelines and blatantly ignoring advice on social distancing and not gathering in large groups, particularly indoors and the result of this is demonstrated by what is happening in the north.
Only this week, on the radio, a gentleman from Nottingham actually said that the rules are meant to be bent. No they are not – they are there for a reason and people who are “bending” the rules are the ones largely responsible for the rise of infections and deaths that we are now experiencing. The main reason why the lockdown was imposed on 23 March was because it was becoming patently obvious that the National Health, if the trend continued, would be unable to cope.
It is all very well for the young to say “herd immunity” and “why should the young be penalised because the old are vulnerable”, but what would they prefer, people dying sometimes long and agonising deaths in their own homes because that is what would happen if there were not enough nursing staff to cope and remember all those frontline people are risking their lives daily to save others. Some people do not die quickly or peacefully of Covid as has been witnessed when we see hundreds of people on ventilators.
So what I am saying while social distancing, washing hands, wearing masks and not gathering large groups will not make this awful disease disappear overnight, it will help - everyone should take responsibility, every little helps however small. If we don’t, more draconian measures will be put in place and no one wants that.
Re: COVID and the economy - Jay (11th Oct 2020 - 13:50:34)
Covid is over as a particularly dangerous disease. It’s now a political beast not a medical one. The stats don’t lie. There are now 3x more daily cases in the U.K. than there ever were in 1st wave, and less than 10% of the deaths. Those who were susceptible to Covid have sadly passed already, and not much can do about that, we probably could/should have done better. But now the rest of us are being held hostage to a myth. See Worldometers count link below:
Re: COVID and the economy - D (11th Oct 2020 - 19:03:05)
AF, you think covid is "primarily a disease of the elderly"? The news reports I have seen on this issue suggest it affects all ages.
I'm sorry you find it necessary to scapegoat the elderly for the situation we all find ourselves in.
Re: COVID and the economy - er (11th Oct 2020 - 20:34:03)
Thank you for your amazing insight into this Jay, have you thought of passing your learned analysis to the Chief Medical Officer and the Panel of Medical Experts who advise the PM and the Cobra committee???
Re: COVID and the economy - passfield resident (11th Oct 2020 - 21:12:44)
Jay- exactly what proportion of the people susceptible to Covid have died from it? I presume you know this, or else your post is a waste of time.
Re: COVID and the economy - AF (11th Oct 2020 - 22:04:19)
D
This virus does affect all ages, but the important part is it is not dangerous for the vast majority of people.
However it is dangerous for the frail and elderly which is why over third of all deaths in the first wave were residents of care homes, who are elderly and frail which is why they are in care homes.Also people with a compromised immune system are also vulnerable.
Therefore people who do not fall into these categories should be living a normal life(not the so called new normal), and get the country working again.
Re: COVID and the economy - D (11th Oct 2020 - 23:01:44)
AF, if a third of deaths were elderly people in care homes, who were the other two thirds? Your figures suggest two thirds of deaths were younger healthier people.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but my attitude over this virus is "How can WE get out of this?" Whereas other people have the attitude of "How can I get out of this?"
Sadly, social responsibility seems to be a quality to be despised these days.
Re: COVID and the economy - Jay (12th Oct 2020 - 18:23:55)
er
I have signed the appropriate petitions if that’s what you mean about passing my wisdom to the powers that be. Or maybe you are just being facetious. We are all but little minions here.
The medical profession is as split as this forum on the right way to deal with Covid. However, it so happens that those in charge, Whitty et al see increasing lockdown as the one trick answer, to what question though? It certainly slows the spread. But to what end?, very few people, anywhere in the world, are now dying from Covid. The independent data does not lie, if you have an enquiring mind have a look. If the stats change I would change my mind. I would be happy to admit it, and eat a humble pie right here.
I’m not saying I want to catch Covid, nor anyone else. It’s about the same as I do not want to catch flu. It is now statistically about the same thing. I am very happy to wear a mask, wash hands, and keep a safe distance from the great unwashed;-) Not a reason to shut down economies though, from which the cost in lives would be far greater. People die from the poverty and mental illness caused by lockdown.
Re: COVID and the economy - passfield resident (12th Oct 2020 - 19:48:39)
Jay-you sound like Donald Trump, who is a proven, bona-fide nutcase. Perhaps you should start a local branch of the Proud Boys.
Re: COVID and the economy - John (12th Oct 2020 - 21:09:51)
STOP! Saying (SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY) this is pure sensationalism,,,,, it never happened, not even in full lock down did it happen, MASSIVE parts of that Economy kept on working and kept everything going, in fact the dip whilst big wasn’t the majority of output.
There are plenty of industries and jobs that will keep going no matter what lock down.
Re: COVID and the economy - Jay (13th Oct 2020 - 10:23:19)
John,
Get your facts straight before posting opinion as fact.
Over 9 million people were furloughed during lockdown, or the economy was shutdown put another way. I don’t know what part of the economy you think can do without 9 million workers, but in my opinion, it isn’t ours!
Don’t believe my opinion, look at the Gov website for facts:
Re: COVID and the economy - Ian (13th Oct 2020 - 12:20:51)
John + facts = never going to happen!
Re: COVID and the economy - M (13th Oct 2020 - 16:11:26)
Jay
I don't dispute your sentiments and agree with many of your points but I think saying 9 millon people were furloughed implies that 9 million people were not working.
The figure of 9 million is cumulative over the whole period since the scheme started in April, not 9 million at any one time, hence why the figure never goes down.
I was furloughed, but only for a month, and have been back working full time since the middle of May. I am one of the 9 million shown in the figures but have been an active worker for 5 months, as I'm sure many, many others are.
Re: COVID and the economy - John (13th Oct 2020 - 17:59:08)
How about you research the actual facts and see how much the economic output of this country went down since the thing broke out in March. Pick any resource you want, For example I picked the IMF but you could pick the UK Govt data, they all show a drop of 15% odd percent.
Then go back to school and subtract 15% from 100% and it leaves you with 85%... yes during the so called "SHUT DOWN" there was still 85% output (People still working, people still holding the economy up, industries still doing it!)
So, as said before, using the words SHUT DOWN is sensationalism, it didn't happen, we did not get to 0% output, the economic figures didn't reveal a -100% hit to the economy.
Yes -15% is bad, but it does not represent in any fashion the term "Shut down" what actually happened is "some" jobs got hit, those jobs that require cramming lots of people into small places mostly to pay for something that isn't a necessity, like pizza or booze etc and now some of you are all giving it the big un that the economy was shut down and its more important than lives etc.... no it isnt mate.. the economy is taking a hit but its still very much there and pumping along, and your only yapping about it as your own wallet is lighter.... your wallet is more important than lives is it?
Stop with the sensation and opinion, get back to facts
Re: COVID and the economy - Jay (14th Oct 2020 - 09:11:40)
John & M,
Thank you for your input, it does put another angle on the data I hadn’t considered.
So economy not quite as bad as thought, but still not good.
I worry for those people who have, and are, still losing their livelihoods. The jobs in the shutdown part of the economy, ‘cramming people into small places’ types as so eloquently put:-) tend to be the low paid workers, and dare I say it in poorer areas of the country. This is a health crisis in the making, and our country is not in a position to pay for it financially or socially.
At least it seems Boris has listened to common sense (maybe our little voices count hey er) and not Whitty this time, and refused to implement another complete lockdown recommended by SAGE.
Re: COVID and the economy - D (14th Oct 2020 - 18:28:01)
All I know is this:- As a result of lockdown the daily death rate fell to single figures, infections fell too. After a summer of the chancellor encouraging us all to eat out, the pubs, schools and universities re-opening, and the organising of all these demos by people offended by a statue and other innocuous excuses to hold a demonstration, deaths and infections are now SOARING.
I personally think saving people's lives is more important than the economy. I wonder what some individuals on this website would have said in 1939? Maybe something along the lines of "Let Hitler have what he wants, we can't risk the economy."
Re: COVID and the economy - Ian (14th Oct 2020 - 21:39:57)
D - millions died to defeat Hitler, part of that fight was to preserve our way of lives and freedom. To defeat Hitler the country didn’t just stay indoors and hide away, industry worked through the the bombs to keep the country economically on its feet to fight the war!!!!
Re: COVID and the economy - John (14th Oct 2020 - 23:10:54)
Ian - when the sirens went off in WW2 the people ran for cover into the bunkers! The covid sirens have been blasting out loud since March and we still have people getting pissed up in the locals, not wearing masks and or getting sucked into the social media algorithms and claiming its all fake.
What exactly are you suggesting anyway? we all just 100% crack like we did do back in January as normal? If we do that id give it 4-6 weeks before people start dying in the corridors and car parks of hospitals stacked up outside.
Re: COVID and the economy - D (14th Oct 2020 - 23:51:12)
Ian, I'm merely questioning how the attitude of people's lives being a secondary issue indicated by some on this website would have gone down years ago. Maybe I'm trying to be too intellectual.
However, the country's economy didn't recover fully from the war until the 1980's. All efforts in World War II were to keep the country FED. For example, the country didn't increase it's G.D.P. by motor manufacturers retooling for the manufacture of armaments.
Re: COVID and the economy - D (15th Oct 2020 - 06:55:30)
John, that's an excellent comparison, I agree with you 100%. All it takes to rid us of this virus is for everyone to do as they're told. But decades of lax discipline at home and in schools has resulted in a generation of belligerents who think they know it all. We've all seen the television reports of them coming out of pubs like rabid rats totally disregarding the social distance rules.
Re: COVID and the economy - Ian (15th Oct 2020 - 07:06:01)
