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Local Talkback
Talkback is for the residents and businesses in Liphook to voice their views and opinions about local issues and events.

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Betrayal
- Yellow bannanna Adrian (19th Oct 2019 - 19:47:08)

Once again the will of the people has been thwarted by the self serving idiots called MP they are not honourable. For goodness sake we voted leave now get us out of the EU NOW. There are other issues that need to be dealt with.

Re: Betrayal
- A (19th Oct 2019 - 20:55:22)

I was in London today and I can tell you the will of the people there was certainly not to leave the EU. I think you’d have been very disheartened by the number of people departing the train at Liphook with banners and stickers in support of staying in the EU. It seems in Liphook, those in favour of Brexit are voting with their keyboards and those against are voting with their feet... I know who I have more faith in.

Re: Betrayal
- Richard (19th Oct 2019 - 21:07:34)

You're wrong Adrian.

Revoke Article 50. Remain.

A large percentage of the older Leave voters are dead now anyway so they won't be affected either way

Meanwhile the young will be screwed by leaving for years

Re: Betrayal
- John (19th Oct 2019 - 22:12:24)

Thing is Adrian, we don't want to leave, the advisory referendum was based on lies.

Re: Betrayal
- Helen (19th Oct 2019 - 22:42:11)

Ovet 1 million remainers today went to London. The vote may be different if we had another referendum.

Re: Betrayal
- Leaver (19th Oct 2019 - 22:52:12)

The leavers are the silent majority not shouting about it.

Re: Betrayal
- Rob (19th Oct 2019 - 23:03:11)

Definately leave 100%

Re: Betrayal
- dav (20th Oct 2019 - 05:38:22)

1 million remainers in london i dont think so

Re: Betrayal
- D (20th Oct 2019 - 07:48:10)

So is "juicy steak and banana custard night" off now then, Bananaman?

Re: Betrayal
- Regrexit (20th Oct 2019 - 10:10:36)

If an unelected team is empowered to negotiate with the EU in the name of the entire UK electorate then surely our elected PMs should be empowered to vote in our name on their (yet to be studied) deal. PMs are our professional politicians just like surgeons are our professional medics - we trust their professional discretion whilst actively in their role. I'm glad MPs are doing that dirty job for us allowing us to get on with our lives.

The leadership is very keen to have a general election (taking advantage of the shambolic state Labour) in the name of democracy. Surely a confirmatory referendum is justifiable now, nearly four years (nearly a governmental term) on now that we all know how little we have known back in 2016. Tories are challenging Labour for election right now, saying: what are you afraid of? What are the Tories afraid of in the next (ideally iminent) referendum?

Just get it over and done with? Not a bit of it. Tough negotiations, compromises, briberies are predicted to last at least a decade. Tens or hundred of £ billions have quietly bled out of public money vie Brexit negotiators to pacify vasat sections of the uk; silenced: DUP, science, contingencies and no-deal preparations,agriculture, financiers and who knows how much more to come. Then there will be the true price of Brexit (poorer trade, poorer standards and poorer regulations), compounded with austerity to pay back Brexit bribery. This would last decades into the future. The only quick way not to worsen the situation is to revoke A50.


As soon as we leave the EU they will speed up militarization (hitherto impeded by UK membership). The UK would naturally mirror and escalate. It only takes a small skirmish in a border crossing or fishing water, gibraltar or whatever for things to get out of hand. Forget Brexit risks the Troubles, think WW3.



Re: Betrayal
- Remain NHS (20th Oct 2019 - 10:35:44)

This again is encouraging, we may actually get to remain.

A General Election

Then a huge shake up and re investment of our children. Especially those suffering and in need of suitable education and environment.

Those in need of assessments but directed to go privately

The risk to a floundering NHS

People waiting years for treatment or non at all

I won’t go on, but for the leavers. Those I have spoken to are not aware of the desperate plight of so many

It is an extremely frightening and painful time for many

Re: Betrayal
- Nicky (20th Oct 2019 - 10:51:23)

100% leave because that was the result of the referendum. It is a) wrong and b) undemocratic to have a second referendum regardless of which way you voted.

Re: Betrayal
- Leave (20th Oct 2019 - 12:05:41)

When we leave we will have more money to spend on the NHS. We will go back to being Great Britain again.

Re: Betrayal
- Remain NHS (20th Oct 2019 - 12:40:11)

I dispute entirely the argument that to remain would be

A wrong
B undemocratic

Have you taken a look at our infrastructure?

Do you know anyone who is suffering as result it and in desperate need ?

Have you spoken to the majority or NHS staff, school teachers?

It’s abhorrent this referendum was allowed to go ahead

I speak not just for myself, but for my children and for parents who were misinformed and regrettably voted leave.

Re: Betrayal
- Leave UK (20th Oct 2019 - 14:01:40)

Remain NHS,
You make your own case for leaving, 40 years of being in the EU has not done much good for the NHS as you say!.
I contest that we were not told before the referendum what it meant.
Both sides said very clearly that voting to leave meant
1) leaving the customs union
2) Leaving the common market
3) Leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
Finally, I do not understand how anyone trying to overturn the democratic vote cannot see the dangerous precedents that it sets.


Re: Betrayal
- D (20th Oct 2019 - 14:14:04)

Isn't this thread turning into a repeat of Banana man's earlier one which began with proposing making October 31st a commemoration day? Personally I'm sick and tired of Brexit and couldn't give a monkey's genitals as to what happens. BREXIT on telly BREXIT on the radio and they even have BREXIT in the storyline on "The Archers". Must be the easiest three years ever for journalists.

Re: Betrayal
- Another Resident (20th Oct 2019 - 14:29:54)

Yes, parliament betrayed the country yesterday. They all stood on a mandate to leave and they lied. Those Mp's who would not abide by the referendum are heretics of the tallest order.
I find it astonishing that so many people posting on here lack the understanding of democracy and the attempts to stop it.
Just because those not wanting to leave believe they have some God given right over those that do, I find appalling.
Your prostration to the EU is galling to those who feel they would be better off out of a system that we never signed up to.
So much hysteria and bad press for leaving has made some people believe all the dooms day scenarios, without any real basis to rely on.
One thing that is certain is that the money we sent to the EU will be used to our countries advantage. Why the fear that some have from breaking from the EU is beyond me.
If somehow the peoples will is subverted, then it will be the blackest day this country will have faced for a very long time and I cannot see that any good can come out of it.

Re: Betrayal
- Helen (20th Oct 2019 - 15:28:08)

There is no connection between leaving the EU and spending loads more on the NHS. That was just propaganda. The area which needs more funding is the care
homes for the elderly and elderly home care. When we can no longer rely on EU migrant workers to look after our elderly the system will collapse. We will have to spend a fortune on sorting out any new trade deals and giving farmers subsidies when the imports of cheap american chlorinated chicken comes on stream.

Re: Betrayal
- Jacob (20th Oct 2019 - 15:29:11)

Give it back to the people.

Parliament can't sort it, one clear way of sorting it is another people's vote.

Re: Betrayal
- Leaver (20th Oct 2019 - 16:41:25)

Jacob we have already had that it was called a Referendum remainers abide by it.

Re: Betrayal
- Remain nhs (20th Oct 2019 - 16:58:50)

@Helen

My daughter was taken to hospital in ambulance today, previously it was a cab as there were no ambulances

Frustrated Drs and paramedics and nurses having to discharge her

But due to continued cuts there is no treatment when there should be

As for propaganda it was lies,

I’ve listened and read all your comments and am appalled by such ignorance.

You can not argue a case when you clearly have no idea whom it impacting!

Leaving the EU will make things worse

I have no issue with billionaires etc I do have issues with what is fast becoming social cleansing


Re: Betrayal
- D (20th Oct 2019 - 17:04:33)

I've never encountered such a bunch of Noddy Know-alls as on the BREXIT threads on this website. I'm now realising why I've never bothered with websites such as this before.

Re: Betrayal
- Jacob (20th Oct 2019 - 17:05:49)

It was called a Referendum, but we now know what it looks like. Parliament can't agree so put back to the people, it's the likes of you and I that have to live with it.

As I said before, if people come out on the side or leave again I will abide by the vote.

Re: Betrayal
- Andy (20th Oct 2019 - 17:09:40)

I voted leave for my reasons. TBH I don’t actually care now but I will say this. If we don’t leave I will Never vote again and tell my kids not to bother because the whole point of democracy is to honour a vote and make the final decision count.

Leave or remain doesn’t matter what now matters is honouring the final outcome!

Just spoilt privately educated individuals who have always been said yes to that don’t like being told No and throw their toys out of the pram....

JUST RESPECT THE RESULT AND DEAL WITH IT FFS!!!!

Re: Betrayal
- john (20th Oct 2019 - 19:08:07)

I wont respect the result as it was ADVISORY, I retain my democratic right to choose and I choose to REMAIN. Even if we leave we will campaign to re-join the EU and its going to happen.

Not everyone whom voted to leave is a racist, but ALL racists voted to leave.

Nothing even ends if we leave at the end of the month, this is just the separation stage, then you have the next stage which will last years, us remainers will swing this back.

Its never going to be over, and all the old people whom voted leave will be 6ft under in the next vote with millions of new 18 year olds all wanting to remain and or rejoin.

You should be proud of us remainers, we are saving this country.

Re: Betrayal
- Alison Ryan (20th Oct 2019 - 19:54:00)

John, I find your rhetoric sickening. I voted out , and yes maybe I should be dead, but guess what my 24 year old son died a few months ago, maybe he voted to remain but I will never know, so forgive me if I find your, choice of claiming who should or shouldn't be dead absolutely disgusting.

Re: Betrayal
- Brexit (20th Oct 2019 - 20:20:00)

Precisely Helen, - Helen (20th Oct 2019 @ 15:28:08)

The connection between Leaving and extra money for the NHS is a negative one.

Not extra money thanks to Brexit, but BECAUSE of Brexit. However, that money will not improve the situation, it would merely minimise Brexit damage.
Public monies that could have gone into improving care are now going and will have to continue going to mitigate the service against Brexit.
Money such as the Brexit stockpiling should have gone on improving routine care instead. Further funds will in future be spent on staffing and other Brexit fallout just as contingency and mitigation rather than improving care.

The NHS Brexit bleeding will be mirrored in other national sectors too.

Re: Betrayal
- Nicky (20th Oct 2019 - 20:31:38)

John what a rude and unpleasant individual you are.....

Re: Betrayal
- John (20th Oct 2019 - 22:35:11)

Am sorry for your loss but you have either mis read or mis understood my reference to age and death, everyone dies eventually and those that are older tend to reach death more so than those whom are younger.

How on earth is that statement sickening?

By the way we will be back in the EU after a few years, we will all be begging to get back in, we have already slipped from 5th economy to 7th and even then we are only 2% of global


Re: Betrayal
- D (20th Oct 2019 - 23:53:28)

To be fair, John, your comments were quite distasteful. Some of us are caring for relatives with stage four cancer so the last thing we want to hear is "six feet under". Maybe you're getting confused again.

Re: Betrayal
- er (21st Oct 2019 - 09:27:54)

John has said enough perhaps, your words, we read them, didn't go down well first time, we understand life cycles, don't need your analysis. I'm a democrat, stick to the point.

Re: Betrayal
- John (21st Oct 2019 - 10:02:58)

D there are two Johns posting presently I will not take the responsibility for the distasteful postings I found it distrespectful as well as most people.

Re: Betrayal
- John (21st Oct 2019 - 11:40:30)

Fine, I apologise for mentioning the word “Death” or indeed that some people are more prone to it that others.
Wasn’t aware that my reference to something natural would cause so much offense, but am also aware that being offended is subjective, nothing actually happens when your offended, your just offended.

Also what a said I have the freedom to say, it’s not a matter for the Law.. so be upset if you must.

My main point is, that the news and work on Brexit does not just stop if we leave this month, it’s going to go on for years, if what happens after all this is a big pot of gold that the leavers always promised then fine I’ll put my hand up.

But so far, and for many years to come it’s nothing but damage, even after that it’s going to take 6 odd years to get ANY trade deal, the country will have suffered 10+ years being behind where it could have been, billions lost, millions suffering, all for some golden day that’s not yet happened and probably won’t. Immigration will still be a problem for you etc

Nothing achieved, just a mess

Re: Betrayal
- Pete (21st Oct 2019 - 14:43:50)

Yellow- The will of some of the people not the people has been thwarted and for very good reason. We were all lied to repeatedly and those that refuse to believe they were are just lying to themselves.
If democracy entails making a decision based on lies and then not being able to change that decision when the liars are outed then that is not my idea of a true democracy.
Why is everybody so afraid of another vote based on what we now know, is it really because you are bastions of this so called democracy or is it because you suspect it wont go the way you would like now that people are more informed. If I remember rightly this was going to be the easiest deal in history, hasn't quite turned out that way has it.
Leaver- Hardly a silent majority, right from the start they have been very vocal from an armchair point of view but cant be bothered to do anything about it apart from a single vote based on lies and narrow minded rhetoric. Don't remember any mass "lets leave the EU" marches before Mr Cammeron decided to call a referendum to try to save his own party.
Dav- No more like 2 million according to the rest of the worlds media "without the same vested interest as the majority of our press.
Nicky- Please explain how a second ref is wrong and undemocratic now that the general population is better informed.
Leave- I can see you have been suckered in by the lies.
Another resident- Get real, the press hysteria has been going on for years from the eurosceptic media, with their own interests uppermost in their minds, lying time and time again blaming all the ills in this country on the EU with no basis in fact whatsoever.

Re: Betrayal
- Regrexit (21st Oct 2019 - 15:13:51)

Surely if a 2016 referendum vote again on the UK's EU membership was allowed, and ever so many re-votes on "deals" for Brexit since 06/2016 referendum were allowed, then another referendum on the membership/deal should also be allowed.
Measure for measure, far from betrayal.

Re: Betrayal
- Penny Williamson (21st Oct 2019 - 15:14:47)

John, if you don’t know why people are offended by your remark then I am truly sorry for you. We all know death is inevitable but to use the phrase “ all the old people whom voted leave will be 6ft under” is rude, insensitive and disrespectful ergo you must be a very insensitive person. Of course everyone one has the freedom to post what they think, but if you are a decent, compassionate human being it doesn’t mean you should. You make sweeping and unfounded statements: “the next vote with millions of new 18 year olds all wanting to remain and or rejoin.” You cannot possibly know that. Your statement is flawed and untrue. 2 of my 4 children were under 18 at the time of the Referendum and have told me that if there was another vote they would vote LEAVE. My other 2 are older and they voted to LEAVE and they tell me that they have not changed their minds, so please do not make these sweeping assumptions. On the matter of the 1 million who turned out in London on Saturday, I agree with Leaver’s post “The leavers are the silent majority not shouting about it.” With regard to your penultimate paragraph you cannot possibly know what will happen in the future after Brexit unless you have a crystal ball. You can surmise and predict but no one knows. If, God forbid, there was another Referendum and the Remainers won by the same sort of majority as the Leavers had done in 2016, do you really think the Leavers would stand idly by and do nothing? Why should they – they would want another Referendum – best of 3!

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (21st Oct 2019 - 19:51:47)

Pete. It's naive in the extreme to think the leave campaign lied and the remain didn't. What do you think will happen if we stay in the EU? I've become increasingly amazed as to how difficult the leave process is and that's because we're tied in to the EU in an astonishing number of ways. I was a reluctant leaver, I can see some of the benefits of the EU, but I've become increasingly wary of the way the EU operates, how much it costs and wastes and the level of say we have in what it does. I'm a firm leaver now and I know many others who feel similarly. I also know firm Remainers who will not be swayed but I suspect the result of another referendum would be a bigger vote for leave.

One of the biggest misconceptions the remain campaign managed to spread is that all leave voters are old and poorly educated. Do you remember putting your age and qualifications against your referendum vote? No. So how do they know this? The reality is it's a regression analysis against the age and education profile of the constituency you live in. So the real story is that leave voting constituencies have a slightly older and less educated profile but to say most are older and less educated is not true. Also, education level really is no marker for how intelligent a person actually is. Finally, all the stats are massively skewed by the large London remain vote. Take London out of the equation and the leave vote really was quite significant.

Penny is right. The quiet majority are for leave and the government knows this.

Re: Betrayal
- Pete (22nd Oct 2019 - 07:38:16)

Gordy- Don't put words into my mouth, I at no point claimed it was one sided lying in many posts on here I have stated both sides have their faults.
I don't recall at any point the remain "campaign" saying leave voters were old or poorly educated, maybe commentators did and certain people felt that way but that is a different matter altogether.
The way to change an institution is to work constructively within it not to constantly frustrate it and especially not from the outside.
I stand by my point that if the leave vote is still so strong then lets have a confirmatory vote now all are better informed.

Re: Betrayal
- Paul (22nd Oct 2019 - 07:39:43)

There has been so much said on Brexit that people are now totally fed up. I agree that if there was was another referendum there would probably be a larger vote for leave, but the real questions have not been asked yet. If you ask voters why they want to leave or remain your answers would be probably few as explanations about the deal are not clear to everybody. I for one have not suffered by being assigned to the EU, in reality have you? think about it.

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (22nd Oct 2019 - 09:25:16)

Pete - I don't believe I have put words in your mouth, sorry if you think I have. You are clearly a remainer and at no point did you suggest both sides lied or misinformed, only the leave campaign. I was simply providing some balance to your post.

The argument that the old and poorly educated voted to leave has been rolled out all over the media and is simply not true. It's all part of the overall process being fought by the remain establishment to keep us in the EU. It's lies and it's remainer lies at that. I'm tired of the holier than thou attitude of those protesting that the result of the referendum is solely based on leave campaign lies when what is going on to prevent the democratic process of leaving now is far more pernicious. And Bercow will get his seat in the house of lord's even though he's been the least impartial speaker ever to hold the position.

Re: Betrayal
- Jacob (22nd Oct 2019 - 10:14:29)

Gordy in response to your last thread, in respect of the lies (and I will agree both sides are quilty of this) But it was the bus, with the message about saving millions of pounds that we could give to the NHS, that has stuck in most people's minds. The Boris denied it, but we have pictures of him next to it!

I just hope we can sort this mess out, one way or another.

Re: Betrayal
- Undecided (22nd Oct 2019 - 12:28:11)

Re the much earlier comment, I really don't get this:

"It is a) wrong and b) undemocratic to have a second referendum regardless of which way you voted."

Wasn't there a referendum in the early '70s which led to the UK joining what was then termed the Common Market? Surely the 2016 referendum is a second referendum on that.

And, for anyone who says that the situation in the UK and EU has changed so much since then, hasn't the same happened over the last 3 years, with the country now being in a much more informed position about what Brexit might actually mean so why not put it to the public vote again - what are you really afraid of??

Re: Betrayal
- Pete (22nd Oct 2019 - 13:15:49)

Gordy- I clearly stated we have all been lied to. If I could be bothered to dig them out (which I cant) I could show you various posts from me on this site in which I have stated both sides are to blame.
I to am trying to provide balance.
As for what is happening in the house a momentous decision as this needs absolute scrutiny. I am no fan of our current political system, I do not believe it is fit for purpose, but they are all (it would seem with the exception of Mr Johnson) working within the framework of the house and the law (Bercow included).
Lastly if we are having a dig at the media, which I am more than happy to do, for their narrative regarding the old and uneducated then lets have a look at the other side of the coin and examine some of the language used regarding remainers. Traitors, Collaborators, unpatriotic, remoaners.
It takes two to Tango and both sides have their faults but as yet I have still to hear a coherent argument that stands up for leaving.

Re: Betrayal
- Charlie (22nd Oct 2019 - 13:25:50)

The year is 2192. The British Prime Minister visits Brussels to ask for an extension of the Brexit deadline. No one remembers where this tradition originated, but every year it attracts many tourists from all over the world.

Re: Betrayal
- Penny Williamson (22nd Oct 2019 - 13:40:39)

Undecided Let me spell it out. The first referendum was in 1975, 44 years ago. A lifetime ago and the world has changed in that time. There has been no seismic change in the last 3 years that can compare. The vote was whether we should stay in the then Common Market. In 1973 when we joined there were the six founder members ie: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany – the Common Market was a trading agreement. Nothing about Europe controlling our laws and borders. It now comprises 28 countries and is called the European Union and the Commission who run the EU do control our laws and our borders. That is what is unacceptable. I cannot speak for others but I suspect the majority of leavers voted, not because of immigration (we all know how important immigration is to our Country) but because we want to take back control of our laws and borders. We want to be able to govern ourselves absolutely – we are a sovereign country and should be able to make our own decisions. I cannot understand why this is not possible and still be able to trade with our closest neighbours. For the record I am not afraid of anything - I just want to get the whole thing done and move forward - another referendum would delay a decision for at least another 6 months.

Re: Betrayal
- D (22nd Oct 2019 - 14:02:51)

The only comment I posted on this subject (albeit on another thread) that did not garner a response was when I suggested like-minded people get together to form their own political party if they feel strongly about this issue. You'll achieve far more going down that road, far more than shouting at your computer screens.

Re: Betrayal
- Kim Jong-un (22nd Oct 2019 - 14:53:27)

Loving the island mentality on here. Please be my guests and let me host you on a visit to DPRK. You are all most welcome. We can be powerful allies in developing our shared brand of national identity, sustainability and democracy together!

Re: Betrayal
- john (22nd Oct 2019 - 21:35:23)

We have already lost two places since the referendum, France and India have overtaken. The EU = 22.761 trillion, minus our 3.02 trillion after we leave. So the EU = 19.7 v UK 3.02 (And you all say, they need us more than we need them. GROW UP and WISE UP, we just turned our backs on the 2nd biggest economy in the world.

2019 list below (Other lists say differently but all that say we are still 5th point to the facts that France and India are rapidly about to overtake and or are closing that gap down to pennies, in 2016 they were well off)

United States (GDP: 21.41 trillion)
China (GDP: 15.54 trillion)
Japan (GDP: 5.36 trillion)
Germany (GDP: 4.42 trillion)
India (GDP: 3.16 trillion)
France (GDP: 3.06 trillion)
United Kingdom (GDP: 3.02 trillion)
Italy (GDP: 2.26 trillion)
Brazil (GDP: 2.26 trillion)
Canada (GDP: 1.91 trillion

Down two places and 5 years away from any ACTUAL new trade deal... if we get one

Re: Betrayal
- er (22nd Oct 2019 - 22:47:22)

Everything have to always boil down to money? Sure money matters, but it's not all, look beyond your own money, other poorer countries are doing great, that's a good thing surely, ok they may not send us as many cheap, desperate fruit pickers living in gangmasters sheds, we may have to get the students out picking fruit (ha ha I don't think so!), but we've all worried so much about other countries like India over the years, now they are doing great, they will provide us with real entrepreneurial and professional partners for many years to come as will much of Asia and others too, don't paint it negatively or fear it, EU was always a fading club on the world stage, desperately fading and clinging together for our money subs and to ward off the fear of the rest of the world catching up. And don't tell me France because apart the figures you quote I've not seen France ahead of UK on any stats, but even if they did, don't be scared about it, we have always been close on gdp, not much in it, we will still trade with France! Sure I'd rather remain, just, on balance (fear of the unknown too) but most important thing is to keep democracy, or the meaning of democracy, alive.

Re: Betrayal
- Penny Williamson (24th Oct 2019 - 15:37:37)

John Would you want to live in India or China? You wouldn't be able to post on a site like this if you did. Just because the UK aren't at the top of the list don't talk our country down. Our economy is good and there are more people in work today than ever. No one would have wanted to leave the EU if, and it is a big IF, our membership had remained an economic one and not become political. You should be the one to GROW UP and WISE UP. Germany has tried twice to rule Europe and the UK by armed combat - they failed - now they are trying by stealth.

Re: Betrayal
- D (24th Oct 2019 - 16:41:18)

What ARE you on about, Penny? That was over seventy years ago. Not even I bear grudges that long, maybe they could do a better job.

Re: Betrayal
- John (24th Oct 2019 - 17:59:12)

We will not control our borders Penny there is no secure border to be had between
Northern Island and the bordering EU country. People from europe will go via Eire and then to Northern Ireland. Also we do make our own laws here.

Re: Betrayal
- John (24th Oct 2019 - 18:14:28)

First it was about immigration, then it was about controlling our laws, recently it’s been about how successful the UK will be without the EU and as soon as some figures show that the UK is just a little blip of an economic power that’s getting smaller you again change that it’s now all about Democracy!!!

Am in tears laughing, you didn’t vote for Brexit back in 2016 for democracy..

Also penny no one suggested anyone was going to live in India, it’s a economic comparison. Showing that we are slipping away.

If anything I think we would all rather live in some luxury little island far far away from here.

But the facts remain, the EU DOES NOT NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED THEM, they never have and never will.

We just cut our own throats

Re: Betrayal
- Pete (25th Oct 2019 - 07:26:38)

Goodness Penny and you leavers have the cheek to call the remain campaign project fear.

Re: Betrayal
- Jacob (25th Oct 2019 - 13:35:56)

Penny, In response to you last post

1. Unemployment is the rise, due to many companies moving over to the sea ( and that includes Rees Mogg, who moved his company over to Ireland, after the referendum)

2.Our economy is going backwards, as per Mark Carney BOE


Re: Betrayal
- Penny (25th Oct 2019 - 14:07:22)

As usual the Remainers have missed the points in my post. I said quite clearly said that if our union with the EU was an economical one only, I would be voting to remain, but it isn’t - it is a political one as well. So I voted to leave and would again. Pete, please point out to me any part of my post that is “spreading fear”. I leave that to the Remainers ie John’s sentence “We have just cut our own throats”. D, I am not bearing a grudge – history repeats itself whether it be in 20, 30 or 100 years or perhaps even longer. The far right in Germany is growing partly fuelled by the massive amount of immigration allowed by Angela Merkel as the far right for the record, is in Sweden. I have visited both countries recently and the evidence is there. It is not scaremongering - it is fact - just as it was in the 1930’s when Churchill was shouted down by all and sundry and called a warmonger. I am not for one moment suggesting that we will be at war with Germany but their increasing influence by stealth in Europe is something to be watched, not ignored.

Re: Betrayal
- D (25th Oct 2019 - 16:26:47)

Jacob, When I was signing on the dole for ten weeks nearly thirty years ago, the dole queue stretched a long way down the Headley road on signing on day. Now we don't even have an unemployment office. Throughout my working life it was always a challenge to fill vacancies. That was the real world, not statistics gleaned from the internet. Rising unemployment? Bo**o**s!

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (25th Oct 2019 - 16:37:02)

Jacob - for every negative quote you can put on here about brexit, someone can put on a positive one. I appreciate I'm wasting my breath with you but PWC are forecasting 1.4% economic growth in 2019 with a small reduction to 1.3% for 2020. The employment rate is currently at an all time high.

I know you think Brexit will be an absolute disaster. I get that. D will back you up too. And others. So how do we stop this? Think about it. If you revoke article 50 where will we stand? It's not going to be all rosy as 52% will feel disenfranchised compared to the 48% that currently do (or whatever the figure might be - you can quote ratios both greater and lesser for leave / remain, whatever suits your own personal narrative). So unless one side accepts the situation and waits to see what happens, we're stuffed and infighting will continue. And I'm sick of it.

Seriously Jacob, Brexit is happening either next week or in January. You're going to have to accept that and, whilst every single remain voter has the absolute right to disagree with what is happening, there comes a point where we all have to move on as a country.

Re: Betrayal
- D (25th Oct 2019 - 16:54:32)

Actually, Gordy old chum, I'm with you on this one.

Re: Betrayal
- Pete (25th Oct 2019 - 17:02:20)

Penny- Your language is clearly insinuating that Germany are some kind of enemy, that in my mind is scaremongering.

Re: Betrayal
- Paul (25th Oct 2019 - 18:02:27)

Gordy, I could not agree more with your assessment! Spot on.

Re: Betrayal
- D (25th Oct 2019 - 18:16:12)

I agree absolutely with Gordy. The vote has been had and whatever way we voted we must accept it even if we don't like it. If I had voted remain I would think to myself:- "Oh well, things might turn out for the better. If they don't, I will be able to say I told you so". Everyone has had their say either way and it is time to draw a line under it and move on. Not to do so is the first step on the slippery slope to civil war.

Re: Betrayal
- Jack (26th Oct 2019 - 09:14:09)

Crikey, the Germans are trying to rule us by stealth and now civil war.

Brexiteer arguments are getting more and more bizarre. This is the real Project Fear.

The EU is the biggest peace project the world has ever seen. Don't believe everything (or perhaps anything) you read in the right-wing press.

The institute of Fiscal Studies & Citibank and, separately, Standard & Poors' Global Ratings have calculated that Brexit has already cost the UK economy over £60 billion, before we have even left. That is the equivalent of nine years of net UK contributions to the EU budget gone so far in three years. We are a poorer country because of this and growth has lagged behind all other G7 countries.

So, we must go on making the argument that Brexit is damaging to our country and not just suck it up. After all, anti-EU sentiment hardly went away after the 1975 referendum - we have had to listen to 40 years of moaning.

Re: Betrayal
- Penny Williamson (26th Oct 2019 - 10:01:02)

I also agree with Gordy - one of the most sensible posts so far. Pete I am not insinuating that Germany is the enemy - the whole situation in Europe needs watching. Mrs Thatcher (whether you like or hate her) realised what was happening in the 1980's and in her famous speech in 1988 in Bruges she set our her belief that the EEC should be an economic rather than a political project - she said "Let me say bluntly on behalf of Britain; we have not embarked on the business o throwing back the frontiers of the state at home only to see a European superstate getting ready to exercise a new dominance from Brussels". Sadly most of her cabinet did not agree with her, to name but two, Geoffrey Howe and John Major. If they had we would not be in the mess we are now.

Re: Betrayal
- Penny Williamson (26th Oct 2019 - 11:09:42)

Jacob Where is your evidence that unemployment is rising? The last I heard was that unemployment has never been lower albeit with the zero hours contracts.

In February 2019, speaking about the global economy, Mark Carney provided a less negative perspective on Brexit, stating that globalisation has resulted in "imbalances of democracy and sovereignty", and that Brexit "is the first test of a new global order and could prove the acid test of whether a way can be found to broaden the benefits of openness while enhancing democratic accountability".

Re: Betrayal
- John (26th Oct 2019 - 12:40:56)

It’s not time to move on, why would we move on when all that’s coming is damage, this is the thing you simply don’t get about those that want to remain, we are attempting to save the country so there isn’t going to be any moving on.

Sure we accept the advisory vote, but we want to change it and we have the freedom to continue to do what we want forever.

Weakness is getting bored and giving up, strength is not giving up in what you believe in.

So if it’s civil war then so be it.

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (26th Oct 2019 - 16:15:14)

Jack - how then do you explain the 30 years of peace before we joined the EU? Isn't NATO the reason for peace as opposed to the EU? You'll probably claim we started both world wars in a minute.

As for John, I just pity you. You're like one of those people who object to a planning application close to their own property and, when it gets granted, you let it consume (and ruin) your whole life even if it turns out you're only slightly impacted, or not impacted at all. For your own sake I suggest you accept the decision. If it turns out to be a disaster then get marching again but don't let it ruin your until it actually does.

Re: Betrayal
- Jack (26th Oct 2019 - 20:57:53)

Gordy, a little history lesson. Winston Churchill proposed the idea of European economic integration after the Second World War, to prevent further conflict and promote a common interest. The forerunner of the EU began in the late 50s, while the Americans were still on bases in Western Europe and the USSR controlled the East. That is why there was peace in the 13 years following the war. We didn't join until the EEC was already established.

You only have to look at the countries of the former Yugoslavia who have joined the EU to see the transition from war-torn to economic prosperity - it won't be long before they are net contributers, particularly Croatia.

Why the British public were asked to vote on issues they just didn't understand is a mystery. Well, not that much of a mystery - it was political expediency to try to deal with Tory infighting. We are a parliamentary democracy, not plebiscitary An Opinium poll published today concludes that 57% of the British population thinks the original referendum was a bad idea. They are right.


Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (26th Oct 2019 - 21:55:26)

Jack - the EU was formed in 1993 after the Maastricht Treaty. You cannot compare the EU of 1993 to the EEC of 1957 which was created after the Treaty of Rome - different beasts entirely. It's also worth pointing out that De Gaulle vetoed our membership of the common market, which had evolved from the EEC, twice, in 1963 and 1967.

I'd argue that NATO has been far more instrument in keeping the peace than the EU.

Re: Betrayal
- Jack (27th Oct 2019 - 00:22:19)

Gordy, the EU is a an evolution of the EEC, which in itself was a progression from European coal and steel market cooperation in the 50s. There is direct lineage. The modern EU is pretty much what Churchill suggested. You are right about de Gaulle, but I don't understand how it is relevant. He was rather odd and perhaps ungrateful, but his successor was welcoming to the British. It was not worth pointing out in the context of our exchange, but I'm glad Google was helpful.

NATO has played a major part in world peace, being a global alliance against Soviet military might; that is not in question. But it is the EEC/EU that has kept European powers from picking fights with each other, exactly as was envisaged. That gets rather lost in all the lies about blue passports and bendy yellow bananas.

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (27th Oct 2019 - 07:42:04)

Jack - you failed to point out that other search engines are available. Tut tut. I suppose you referred to your Encyclopaedia Brittanica set didn't you?

I'm not sure you understand how evolution works - try googling that. What you tend to find is that one thing that has evolved from another thing tends to differ quite significantly from what it orignally was. Otherwise it would be the same thing, wouldn't it?

Regardless, none of this information was a secret prior to the vote. Brexit is happening regardless of whether you think it is right or wrong. You can keep protesting and moaning afterwards, that's your prerogative. There are a lot of people in this country who aren't happy unless they've got a cause to be unhappy about.

Re: Betrayal
- Penny Williamson (27th Oct 2019 - 09:30:08)

Jack, why don't you read my posts more carefully? Yes it is true Winston Churchill supported a closer economic relationship with the EU. That is exactly what I said - I support an economic union but not a political one where Brussels dictate to us, a Sovereign country about our laws and borders which is exactly what they are doing. That is NOT what Churchill meant and can you imagine him putting up with that interference. I don't think so.

Re: Betrayal
- Jack (27th Oct 2019 - 14:09:15)

Afternoon Penny. I did read your posts very carefully, I always do. You said that the Germans are trying to rule us by stealth, without any evidence and against any reasonable interpretation of the reality. It is Faragesque-style scaremongering.

It is telling how none of the far right parties in Europe are now calling for their countries to leave the EU as their official position, whatever nasty other views they hold. They look at Britain and realise that they can't be associated with anything so stupid. I too have visited southern Germany recently. The people I met were totally perplexed by why we would want to isolate ourselves and stifle our economy.

Not sure how you would know Churchill's view on the modern EU. He was certainly keen to avoid future conflict at all costs in Europe. The wartime generation were generally keen on reconciliation and cooperation and that, together with the total basket-case of an economy we had, must have informed the 1975 referendum. It is the spoiled generation which followed them that are the cause of today's problems.

Gordy, you are probably right that we will leave early next year. Lies, the weakness/careerism of many Tory backbench MPs and a hopeless opposition will see to that. Remainers will be disappointed. It doesn't mean that we were wrong though.

Re: Betrayal
- John (27th Oct 2019 - 19:22:49)

Churchill also swapped political parties several times, was responsible for the Yalta massacre and the British electorate did not re elect him after world war 2.
Continually looking back at world war 2 will not help the present situation. Plus
we need to police the borders we have now in a better way. If our ports were better
policed the illegal routes of entry will close up. The EU will have no bearing on our
borders. Also I fail to see that we do not make our own law? Our employment laws were far inferior to Europe's until we complied. Our beaches were not clean they are now. We had hardly any protection for the environment? Europe does good things as well.


Re: Betrayal
- Yellow Bannanna Adrian (28th Oct 2019 - 08:35:57)

John

Please get your facts right, Churchill did lose the 1945 election to Atlee, but won the next election.

Re: Betrayal
- Penny Williamson (29th Oct 2019 - 10:44:48)

Jack you may think you read my posts but you only take note of the points that suit your argument I said that I would like an economic union with Europe not a political one. For the record the people who are to blame for this current mess are the remain MPs who have from day 1 after the referendum consistently worked against the UK leaving the EU ignoring the result of the democratic vote

Re: Betrayal
- J (29th Oct 2019 - 12:38:31)

So not the ERG MPs fault who voted against May’s deal which was probably better than Johnson’s then? Perhaps the “problem” is not wanting to shaft the country for generations by pushing through a deal without appropriate scrutinisation, but hey we wanted to get back parliamentary sovereignty.

Time to put it back to the people now we know the details of the options, surely!

Re: Betrayal
- er (29th Oct 2019 - 13:55:14)

Jack you say "The people I met were totally perplexed by why we would want to isolate ourselves and stifle our economy", now if that isn't scaremongering too, project fear even ha ha, I'd say both sides are guilty of the same equally, it's not most people's view that by leaving a sordid political union that won't let us in unless we pay billions and have no borders and give control of our government we would be isolated, it's a big world out there, don't be scared, we can make many friends the EU will still want to trade with us unless you think they are just a bunch of sour, bullying control freaks who can't cope with rejection, ie psychopaths. Just like to add for the record by general consensus Churchill was a great war leader (he had those sorts of attributes) but a terrible peacetime leader..so don't place any great store in what you think he might or might not have wanted with post war Europe. In fact he was a pretty bad war leader at first, with some huge costly disasters under his belt even prior to WW11, ie Gallipoli as a half million casualties testify, but he was very charismatic, bombastic and stubborn, does that remind you of anyone currently?

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (29th Oct 2019 - 14:24:11)

J - interesting that you say in the same post that May's deal is "probably" better than Johnson's but it's time to put the it back to the people "now we know the details of the options.". That's a bit confused....

Re: Betrayal
- H (29th Oct 2019 - 16:07:20)

Never mind by Christmas we will have a nice new Conservative government with a large majority and in the new year out of the dreaded EU happy days .

Re: Betrayal
- Jack (29th Oct 2019 - 16:26:42)

Penny, you want an economic union with the EU, so are you in favour of the single market (as was Mrs Thatcher)? It is most confusing. I liked your comment about only picking bits of your comments. There is a lovely irony as you never engage with the economic arguments I put in my posts, only my comments on your posts!

er, I was merely making an observation re the comments of people I met in Germany. You'd be hard pushed to find someone in Europe who thinks Brexit is going to be great for Britain. They think we have lost our marbles!

I only referenced Churchill because, as far as I can tell from online and broadcast debates, Brexiteers are obsessed with WWII and think that rationing and powdered egg etc were fantastic. I was bringing the debate to them. The wartime generation were brave and stoic, but not many of them would choose to live so restrictedly in peace time. Brexit is the mess created by the baby boomers who followed them (generalising, of course), after they had benefited from the economic boost we enjoyed during our EU membership, in particular from unfettered access to their trading and financial markets. They are pulling-up the drawbridge on the next generation who, generally, would prefer to remain. By the way, a little light Googling showed me that Churchill called for a 'United States of Europe' in his speech in Zurich.

Anyway, don't worry too much about it everyone. We now have a General Election to worry about before we need to worry about leaving the biggest trading market in the world. Who the heck am I going to vote for (and no Penny, it won't be the Conservatives - never, ever again)? What are the chances of getting a LibDem is Hampshire East? They managed it in Guildford a few years ago and I reckon they may do again this time.

Re: Betrayal
- John (29th Oct 2019 - 23:16:29)

Boris resigned from May's government over the very same deal that he now puts forward!

Also boris's deal is nearly the same as the very first deal the EU put forward before May got a better one,

Is no one actually paying any attention? Its like a goldfish bowl of stupidity within which no ones memory last more than 5 days...

We are doomed

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (30th Oct 2019 - 09:48:42)

John - the problem is the EU won't give us a decent deal as they want us to stay or, if we do leave, they want to make an example of us so any deal they're happy with rings alarm bells for me.

This is why a lot of people favour no deal. Notwithstanding whatever short term pain this might cause, it's a clean break from the EU and we're free to negotiate however we want. I think Boris knows this but parliament, as you know, is fighting tooth and nail to take no deal off the table. This is being done by Remainers and the ultimate gameplan is to stop us leaving.

The other option is remain. However, why would anybody want to remain part of an institution that won't let you leave and, if you do, wants to punish you? It's frankly terrifying in my opinion. As an initial reluctant leaver, it's this kind of additional information that has become apparent since the referendum that has strengthened my opinion.

Re: Betrayal
- john (30th Oct 2019 - 20:51:02)

Gordy the EU have a good club and done a lot of good things, they are not attempting to make an example of the UK, instead the UK is behaving like an imperial brat that wants all the benefits of being in the club without playing by the club rules.

Take yourself down to old thorns get a membership and then later say, I don’t want my membership anymore, stop paying for it yet demand you can still use the pool and get all the benefits and see how far you get.

The EU don’t want us to leave yes, but the EU is still 7-8 times as large as the UK economy so they would prefer a smooth exit for the good of everybody, they would even prefer we don’t leave at all but they know its not their choice.

However they are not going to lets us use all the benefits without being in the club and playing by the rules... to do so undermines the club completely... if we all used the pool at old thorns without paying then it wouldn’t work would it?

To suggest its threatening us it nonsense, we are all big grown up countries now and no one is folding over for the other for free, no one is pointing missiles at each other etc.

It was us whom voted in the advisory vote to go, not the EU so if anything I think they have dedicated a lot of their time to facilitating the departure. They too have much better things to be getting on with than meeting us with us week after week.

Frankly I think they will be glad to get rid of us, and yes they will suffer, but not as much as us.

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (30th Oct 2019 - 21:50:37)

John - I've seen many Brexit related analogies and yours is one of the poorest. It simply doesn't work. Mutually beneficial trade agreements simply don't equate to the use of a swimming pool without paying.

The situation is far too complex for any simple analogy like yours. What I find terrifying, and linking back to some of the points penny has made, us that we voted to join a trading block and yet we are so legally entwined with that block now that it's almost impossible to leave.

Re: Betrayal
- Finchie (31st Oct 2019 - 05:32:45)

This is hilarious !

I left Old Thorns when they put the prices up to £88 per month as it didn’t offer me what I needed.

I went back with various proposals, for example, I work late during the week and could never make classes, and used to get kicked out at 9.45pm if I did go in the evening, so I suggested a weekend membership of c. 40 quid. Nothing. Nada. Take it or leave it.
Their argument was that they have a pool and 4 sauna rooms, “like the ones at David Lloyd in Farnham” and they charge a lot for that. When I pointed out the pool is not fit for purpose, one push and you're at the other end, and I’d never used the sauna rooms, so perhaps c.30quid a month for the weekend and gym only package ...I was gutted to leave. I also went to David Lloyd to check it out. Chalk and Cheese!

I left it immediately and joined Pure Gym in Reading and for 25 quid a month I get access to all the 230 gyms in the country, more classes, and able to use it way more as it is near work !

There are still plenty of my friends who love Old Thorns, as they get value from it, use all the facilities and it is a great place to be.

There you have it. More complex than you initially thought, trying to negotiate better terms, (as Junker put it the day before the referendum “you’ll get nothing if you stay”), lots of people stayed, lots of people left, not changing very quickly and very stubborn. Not all members pay the same (subsidised forces, police etc <- fact check needed).
But there are good alternatives that offer way more value etc. etc.

In retrospect, not a bad analogy I would say ! The only difference is that 2 years ago, we all made a quick decision when Old Thorns put the price up and executed our decision immediately ! Imagine if we hadn’t and whinged and moaned, kept asking for a better deal as new management came and went ! I’d be worn out by now !

Who knew Brexit was operating in a parallel universe right in our back garden !

On that note, have a great weekend ! I certainly will, c’mon England !

Cheers, Finchie

Re: Betrayal
- Gordy (31st Oct 2019 - 07:12:12)

Ha ha Finchie. Perhaps the length of the swimming pool represents the amount of water between us and Europe when we leave and physically drift off somewhere into the Atlantic?

Out of interest, how easy was it to leave Old Thorns? Did they charge you to leave? Who are these other people who left, which countries do they represent in the analogy? What other Unions can.we join? Is there an Icelandic one, Greenland maybe?

Questions, questions, questions. Don't forget Old Thorns is owned by the Chinese, seems obvious they'd be involved somehow...

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