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Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Steve Miller (24th Mar 2019 - 11:48:28) I have today sent the following email to our MP Danian Hinds as a proposal for addressing the current logjam on the Brexit issue. I would be interested in receiving comments from others about its viability. Perhaps if others agree they might consider following my example. Dear Mr Hinds I am writing to you, both as my Member of Parliament and in your capacity as a senior Cabinet Minister, with a suggestion about how the current impasse might be resolved in a way which might be acceptable to many (although not all) of the current factions. I believe that you have been and presumably remain a supporter of the deal negotiated with the EU. My suggestion assumes that this deal should be approved by parliament and that we should leave on the original date of 29th March or soon after, but on the basis that the Government undertake to facilitate a further referendum, but his time on whether or not we should rejoin the EU at the end of the transition period. At this time the proposed arrangements for our future relationship with Europe should have been negotiated so the country would be faced with a clear choice with the facts largely beyond dispute It seems to me that the above proposal should satisfy those that are concerned about honouring the vote in 2016 and the promises made in the 2017 election but also recognise the argument on the other side that many of the key issues in the referendum debate were unclear at best and in many cases misrepresented. It is likely that this vote would take place at least 5 years after the original leave vote which would give the substantial number of citizens who have come of voting age in the intervening period a chance to be consulted about their future. I should make clear that I write this as an ardent remainer who signed the petition to revoke earlier this week but I make the suggestion in recognition that taking that particular course of action would do nothing to heal the deep divisions in our country. My wife and myself have completely different views on the matter but interestingly she was quite enthusiastic about my idea. I recognise that many far better minds than my own have been wrestling with the Brexit issue for several years and I would be surprised if nobody else had come up with a similar strategy but I cannot recall ever having seen it mentioned in the media. The plan undoubtedly contains many pitfalls but so does pretty much every other current idea. Finally and notwithstanding the above suggestion, I would urge you to vote to revoke article 50 should it ever come down to a choice between that or leaving the EU without an agreement on our future relationship. Yours sincerely Steve Miller

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - David Lambert (24th Mar 2019 - 14:44:15) Mr. Miller, Your letter beggars believe. We all had the chance to vote two years ago. The question asked was to LEAVE the EU or REMAIN the vote went in favour for those people who voted LEAVE what is it that you people don't understand. If you get your way and we have to vote again what will your response be when the result is just the same will you then want a third vote and then a forth vote until you get the result you want. Then the people who voted to LEAVE will be asking for a further vote and the answer will be you had a vote you lost so get on with it. Is this what is called DEMOCRACY. Please just accept you lost and let's all get on with leaving the EU and this country can and will survive. BREXIT MEANS BREXIT END OF.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - A.R (24th Mar 2019 - 14:49:54) I totally disagree with you. Shame on you for trying to thwart democracy.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Kate (24th Mar 2019 - 15:29:54) Good effort Steve, but having emailed Mr Hinds before I know that any reply you get will be from one of his minions if your fortunate enough to get one. Once we voted for a conservative win then all the other stuff like publicizing his email address (it not his personal mailbox, I doubt he bothers to look) is just lip service. We gave the selfservatives the power, after which they couldn't give a toss until the next big one when they will come slurping back making promises to you. Same goes for Labour and in fact all of them. Its just a game show to make us all think we have a say. For the next 10-20 years Brexit opinions will be the tool used to stop us having any common view and let them continue doing what they want, as a united populations view is pure terror for those in power. They have made us s*** the bed as they already know the next 10 moves, all they desire is for us to remain distracted enough to allow them to fill their own pockets.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (24th Mar 2019 - 17:59:08) Dear Steve Miller, Please take particular note of my reasoning 2, 3 and 4 not to support your re-vote idea. I agree with you on some other points and I think Leavers' pathetic clinging to the 2016 “democratic result” is a push-over in a logical debate. The 2016 referendum was, in hind-sight, an insult to democracy. Democratic reasons for a second referendum: 1) Although there may have been some inaccuracies by the referendum Remain camp, the Leave camp had produced gross amount of misinformation and substantial irregularities – for some of which they have been convicted. 2) The Leave campaign had many years to produce a handful of “facts” favouring leaving the EU. On that feeble basis they were (reluctantly) awarded a referendum. During the relatively brief post-referendum period we've been bombarded with vast amounts of new information that was previously unavailable. Many have changed their minds. Now surely they deserve their own fresh referendum at some point. 3) One way to vote incorrectly when asked for a personal opinion is voting for irrelevant issues. Those who voted Leave due to general (British and other) dismay with the political class, against “The Establishment” (many have), have voted irrelevantly. They were asked about membership in the EU yes/no. Those who thought the EU parliament is so inept/corrupt and that we would be better-off solely in the hands of the now-infamous British parliament might like to do some reflecting. The EU parliament had shown excellent resolve and effective functionality over brexit. Having been able to draw on the EU parliament and EU court powers as EU members would have been a possible saviour from our own failed British parliament. Those who would reflect might like another chance to vote. Reasons not to vote again just yet: 1) The height of the drama still lies ahead of us, who knows what new facts would emerge yet. 2) People are justifiably frustrated with the British political process just now and are likely to vote for the wrong reasons or not to vote at all. 3) Voting and election campaigns are expensive and distract us from dealing with other burning issues. 4) Entering and exiting the EU (like many other clubs / relationships) is not a simple a revolving door game. Every time a member is being awkward the rest of the club becomes justifiably frustrated. Next time we knock on the entrance door to the EU (which we will), fees would have gone up, friendly relationships cooled down and it may be a longer wait at the door.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - David Lambert (24th Mar 2019 - 19:35:11) Regrexit it would be nice if you had the balls to give us all your name. Have another vote and it is likely the result will turn out just the same. Would you accept that ???? No you wouldn't I suspect. We were asked two questions when we cast our vote LEAVE THE EU or REMAIN IN THE EU. The vote was won in favour of the leave voters. I rest my case.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (25th Mar 2019 - 06:54:22) David Lambert, My real name is not as relevant, and not as 'nice' as the given one. Please focus on the matter to-hand? And you refuse peoples' right to vote because YOU already know the future results? That's some interpretation of democracy... I assume you are responding to my contribution above? If my above reasoning aren't enough, you could consider this: 1) You have my guarantee to accept the best of three. 2) Leaving the EU, we now know, is complicated and comes in a range of approaches. Let's hope future referenda will come with a WORKABLE choice of wording: Leave how? When? What red lines? At what cost etc... Parliamentarians executers must be provided further instruction in order to better serve the votes and avoid an impasse similar to the current. Furthermore, I'd be much more at ease if I knew that all Leave voters have voted for the same flavour Leave. They have not, they are very much internally divided over their misleadingly unifying “Leave” single word. Yes I do suggest you rest your case now, your arm looks sore.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - David Lambert (25th Mar 2019 - 09:26:54) Regrexit, Sticks and stones will break my bones etc. You are just a poor looser. You say you will except the best of three. If that was to happen every time we have to vote then it will have to be done three times RUBBISH. All we want is to not be told what to do by these prats across the water. We will be in charge of all that we do.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (25th Mar 2019 - 11:46:46) David Lambert, Just to say I have read and noted your response. I am sorry for the time wasted on exchanging with you and I wish you well. I'd be interested in exchanging with anyone who is both sensible and not too unpleasant to exchange with on the subject.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Peter (25th Mar 2019 - 13:30:22) Mr Lambert. The basic wording of the choices in the referendum and the blatant lies told are what is and always was wrong with this whole shambles. Leaving was never going to be as simple as the referendum question implied and the leave campaign told us it was going to be. On another point if we want any type of trade deal with the rest of the world there will always be rules and restrictions in place so we will never "be in charge of all that we do. Prats across the water? I see now we are coming to the crux of the matter, same old insular thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Rölli (25th Mar 2019 - 14:22:58) such blatant racist (and childish) sentiment on this thread!!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (25th Mar 2019 - 15:32:55) My reasons for vote to leave the EU are as follows: Sovereignty and subordination. The first is simple It is the absolute right – not the indulgence or the permission but the right – of an identifiable people in an identifiable nation/ state inside identifiable borders to decide among themselves how and by whom they wish to be governed. That is sovereignty. Previous British governments never had any right to transfer vast swathes of that sovereignty from London to Brussels without the people’s express permission. These transfers were made without permission from the British people. People talk about lies in the leavers’ campaign in 2016. In the referendum of 1975 the people were asked if they wanted to continue in the Common Market, which they were told concerned trade only. THAT WAS A LIE. Because of this monumental lie I voted yes because I thought a Trade Deal would be beneficial to all. Over the years that has changed and the EU is run by people in the Commission who are unelected and unaccountable. From being a Sovereign State able to make our own laws and control our own borders we are now subordinate to the EU. Our rights have slowly but surely been whittled away and this will continue if we remain in the EU. The next item on the Agenda will be a Federal Army. For decades we have been told we wished to live “under the rule of law”. No one ever asked: “Whose law?” The clear aftermath of a series of treaties without referendum is that our government is subordinate to the EU whenever Brussels chooses to invoke its primacy. Why do you think the EU have made it so difficult for us to leave – because they don’t want any other country to leave and the cracks in the EU have been apparent for some time and are progressively getting worse. Thank goodness we did not get into the Euro. After Brexit we will collaborate with our continental neighbours on a thousand matters but the primacy will revert to our Parliament. Why is it so hard for people to grasp that, and why do they find it so offensive? and yes if there was another referendum I would still vote to leave.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Peter (25th Mar 2019 - 16:51:32) Brexit means brexit (Why always in capitals). But what exactly does brexit mean. I have yet to hear one cohesive plan that anyone agrees on. That is the trouble with a binary question different people have different reasons, for some it is political as they fear a federal state, for some it's the money because they believe everything the media tells them, for some it's blatant racism and for others it is a harking back to the "good old days" which never really existed as we are educated to remember them and will never come again. Oh I forgot the don't want to be ruled by foreigners ones who conveniently forget we have a veto and elect our MEPs. Have I forgoten anyone

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (25th Mar 2019 - 17:41:11) Penny Williamson, Thank you for your fair and informative contribution to this argument. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm sure there were many who believed King James I of England and his divine right to reign. Fast forward 400 odd years, we all (I hope) know differently. The proposition of 1975 referendum was accepted based on what was AT THE TIME known and true. It was not a lie at the time of voting. The same can not be said for the disgraceful 2016 Leave campaign blatant lies. Now many Leave voters have also been graced with hindsight and wish they have voted differently. The EU hasn't taken all border control powers away from the UK. The UK failed to put to practice border controls accepted and practised elsewhere in the EU. The EU had acted as a buffer and paid for much of what otherwise would be an enormous and painful struggle for the UK. Outside the EU, the UK will be faced with the full force of mass migration from poor regions of very different cultures and ways of life. Immigration rarely disappears without a fight just because it is not entirely desired by the destination nation. We are talking further tens of thousands of civil servants, paid by UK tax payers, manning border checks, doing what is an unenviable job – currently provided by other EU members. I agree, an EU army seems like the next step. This had so far been suppressed by the UK membership inside the EU. Post-brexit the EU will resume its arms race, the UK would have to reciprocate, cross-channel muscles will be flexed. It only takes a small fishing skirmish or a border check misunderstanding for the whole thing to blow up. We know what cross-channel military relations were like prior to the EU membership. Not something many reminisce about. Nor something discussed about in the brexit debate, but it should be. The EU's pre-existing departure procedures had been adhered to by the EU over the 2016 ongoing turbulence. It's the UK that was expecting special exit discounts. The EU had not intentionally made it harder for the UK to leave before the UK had set up its own impossible red lines including a premature triggering of A50. Decades prior to the 2016 referendum both the EU and the UK found it all too cosy and convenient to come closer together. Then in 2016 the UK (seemed to have) changed its mind, and had come to realise the practicalities of that are staggering. I am in awe and wish your optimistic view of post-brexit UK-EU relationships would be quite so beneficial and cordial. Whatever the future relationship with the EU, whatever the outcome of this 2016 episode, the UK will not be at peace with itself for decades to come. The brexit division will not go way and we better get used to living with it. For this we have a handful of spurious beneficiary individuals of very narrow interest. They are heavily talented in manipulating voters, and admirably tenacious. I take my hat off for them.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Diane (25th Mar 2019 - 18:06:44) Could Penny please explain how the EU has made it so difficult for us to leave and are you happy to be led by the present government. The main reasons people voted to leave were Blue passports Immigration and Sovereignty all in the hands of our government, not the EU. I object to being told by leavers YOU LOST SO GET OVER IT. or WE WON SO SHUT UP. Remainers are residents of this country and we are also allowed our opinion.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (25th Mar 2019 - 18:07:20) There is a fair bit to pick-up on in Penny's post: 1. Re 'sovereignty', while some decisions on our behalf are made under the rules of the Single Market, this is no different from any other trade deal arrangement. A prosperous economic partnership requires degrees of compromise. 2. "Our rights have slowly but surely been whittled away and this will continue if we remain in the EU" - our rights are being taken from us now. I am about to have my absolute right as a European citizen to travel, work trade and live freely on the continent taken from me against my will. In what other circumstances is it OK for my government to remove my rights? As part of the EU, individuals have more rights than ever before in history 3."The next item on the Agenda will be a Federal Army". That is a bold statement, not based on fact. Macron and Junker have made a case for closer defence co-operation, but 'Federal Army' is just scare-mongering. Project Fear perhaps? 4."Why do you think the EU have made it so difficult for us to leave" - they haven't made it difficult for us to leave. They can't wait for us to go. We are an embarrassment. They agreed a withdrawal agreement full of UK demands without objection. It has been difficult to leave, because this Government has put its own party interests above that of our nation and because leavers did not agree the basis of how we would go during the referendum campaign 5. Why do leavers (and right-wingers) go on about remainers being "offended" all the time? Its become a real trope. I'm not offended by much at all. Despondent would be a better description. Remain is 8-10% ahead in the polls currently, the largest petition ever demands we stop this nightmare and the largest demonstration in recent history asked the same. A confirmatory vote on May's deal, with remain as an option, is easily the most democratic solution to this mess. The lies and false promises of the referendum were a travesty to democracy, which was won by leave by a squeak. May has made no attempt to reach out to the 16.1M who voted remain, plus all those who were excluded from doing so (16 & 17yos). As a result, we will be divided forever if there isn't a chance for everyone to have a say on the deal. A confirmatory vote is compulsory in trade union strike action ballots, so I don't understand why it is suddenly a democratic affront now.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - David Lambert (25th Mar 2019 - 19:32:52) Regrexit, I would like just say I am not unpleasant or not sensible just because my views differ from yours. As for the comments about the lies told by the Leavers did not the Remain side tell a few porkies. Neither side are angels. The bottom line is we had a vote and we were asked two questions on the ballot paper Leave the EU or Remain in the EU. The vote Leave won so accept it. If the vote had gone the other way there is no way the Leavers would have chased and asked for another vote. No because the answer from the Remain group would have been you had a vote you lost so that's it. Please just support our country.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (25th Mar 2019 - 22:41:00) David Lambert, The leave campaign has been censured by the Electoral Commission for its lies. There is no equivalence between leave and remain on this.This is another Leave trope. I spat my tea out when I read your comment "there is no way the Leavers would have chased and asked for another vote". After 40 years of moaning about the EU/EEC? Really? Even Farage said they would continue the fight, when it looked like Leave wouldn't get their slim majority. This claim is just absurd. I was cross (not offended!) about your comment "please just support our country". It is patriotic to want our country to be prosperous, for our country to be at the 'top table' in our region and on global matters. It is patriotic to want to show Britain as welcoming place to visit, live and work. I don't doubt that leavers misguidedly think that wrecking our economy, our reputation, our voice in the world and stripping people of their rights is patriotic, but accusing those who want what they conclude is best for our country as unsupportive is just plain wrong.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - SL (26th Mar 2019 - 05:04:51) If we reapply to join the EU again we'll have to do it on the EU's rules and regulations. It won't be like going back in on the same deal we're on now. We'll loose all our vetos and opt outs and we'll also loose the Pound as we'll have to join the Euro. As a country we voted Leave so we should leave, deal or no deal, and just get on with making the best of it. If we rejoin we'll be an even bigger laughing stock!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - David Lambert (26th Mar 2019 - 10:12:38) Jack, I respect your view. I just don't agree with it. We all have are own opinion and that is as it should be. What I don't understand is why all the moaning. We had a vote now the country should honour that vote. If and when we have a general election and the result is announced if you have lost you might not like it but you have to accept it. Brexit has certainly put the cat among the pigeons.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Rölli (26th Mar 2019 - 11:17:14) Dave, with a general election you get another vote in 5 years so if you have made a huge blunder you can fix it. Not the same with the referendum, we will have to live with the consequences and based on the balls up the politicians are making of the Brexit process we could be damaged for decades to come. The EU is flawed and it is time for change but crashing out with no deal is just too risky and our kids will have to live with the consequences.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (26th Mar 2019 - 12:55:17) David, when there is a general election, the biggest party is asked by HM to form a government. If they are unable to, it is up to other parties to try to form a government. If a sitting government is making a mess, the opposition can call a vote of no-confidence in the Government and force another election. In Brexit's case, Leave narrowly won. The Government has been unable to 'form a Brexit'. Many (possibly a majority now) are calling for a vote of no confidence in Brexit. It seems entirely consistent to me. I agree that Brexit has put the cat amongst the pigeons. By ignoring the concerns of half of the country in this process, this appalling Government has sealed divisions in this country that will be very difficult to heal. SL,you are right about our conditions for rejoining. That's exactly why we shouldn't go. The arrangement we have is too good.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Al (26th Mar 2019 - 18:55:15) It beggars belief to me when people keep saying "Brexit means Brexit". When people voted 3 years ago quite a majority only voted on the issue of closing the borders. A lot of the info broadcast at the time was not true, this has been verified. Now that we have much more truth of what leaving the EU means people should get the right to express their true feelings in another referendum!!! End of!!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Al (28th Mar 2019 - 08:15:04) Well the indicative votes only go to prove my point, the peoples referendum although voted down got the highest number of yes votes, this should go forward to be voted on again next week.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Phil (29th Mar 2019 - 00:07:41) I voted remain but am entirely happy to now support Brexit as that was the result of a fair referendum. I really do not buy into the post rationalised argument about being lied to or misled by the Leave campaign. I think it insults people’s intelligence. All the contributors on this post who voted remain, still advocate remain and want another referendum, surely give evidence to the fact that people are able to make up their own minds because otherwise the “lies” of the leave campaign would have influenced far more people than it did. Overall the balance of media and communication during the referendum was heavily biased to the remain narrative in my view yet leave won. Fair and square. Now it is down to the politicians to deliver on this. Politicians advocating another referendum on this should be very careful as it would show them as redundant and I personally would then demand a referendum on every single major issue facing our country

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Phil (29th Mar 2019 - 07:45:48) I find it appalling that various politicians and people on this forum conclude that another referendum wins the day because it had the highest number of votes in defeat.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Paul (29th Mar 2019 - 09:52:16) Phil, you find it appalling?....Well that's the way the cookie crumbles matey. I find it sad that people keep saying leave means leave! When the referendum was over 3 years ago most people who voted leave we're surprised and happy. When the aftershocks happened and they were told the real story a lot we're unhappy. What is happening now is as a result of people's true feelings. I believe that a lot more would vote remain now they understand the true implications. It's getting tiring hearing the same same statement over and over "We voted leave in 2016 so we should leave" Ask a lot of people what they understand about Brexit and you might not get a lot of interesting answers.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (29th Mar 2019 - 10:21:46) Paul I totally disagree with you. , Notwithstanding the fact that a further referendum cannot and must not happen, I think the vote would still be to leave. Many people have seen the disdain Europe has for us now openly shown in the way they have negotiated the deal. This was evident when Cameron tried to renegotiate prior to the referendum. "No, non, nein" is all we hear from them and I know remainers who would now vote leave as they no longer want to be part of such an organisation.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (29th Mar 2019 - 12:08:27) Aidy What disdain would that be then. We are wanting to leave them not the other way around so why would they not look after the best interests of the European union. It is surely not their fault that are politicians are looking after their own interests rather than the interests of the country which has led to this debacle. I had a very long discussion with a leaver friend of mine last night and both came to the conclusion that our system of government is not fit for purpose and that is what has led to this sad state of affairs. Indeed if I thought that our governmental system actually worked for the people it is meant to serve I would be ok with the prospect of leaving. Our system is broken and the only thing good to come out of this whole sorry mess is that this has now been highlighted. Lets not forget the real reason that the referendum happened in the first place was a misguided attempt to stop the Conservative party from fracturing. We have a remain campaigner trying to negotiate our leaving and two Leavers who have consistently rubbished her deal now suddenly changing their mind as there is a sniff of an opportunity to further their own ambitions. where is the integrity and principle in that. It is our own fault and nobody else's.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Phil (29th Mar 2019 - 13:08:32) Aidy - in my view you have hit the nail on the head. I voted remain but if another referendum is thrust upon us I will definitely vote leave the EU. I cannot stomach being told the country “has made the wrong choice” so you had better vote again. I would prefer a “no deal” Brexit and negotiate from there as I am certain a deal would then be watched. Unbelievable that amateur negotiators / politicians have taken this off the table.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (29th Mar 2019 - 13:38:57) Pete. I'm not sure then how you're following this debacle then. The disdain is explicit in pretty much every soundbite from Junker, Barnier, Merkel, Macron and Tusk. This whole thing comes down to money pretty much every which way you look at it. The EU needs our money to continue, remainers are frightened about losing money if we leave, leavers think we'll be better off in the long term,l when we do, the NHS bus, the EU parliamentary gravy train for our politicians long term etc. etc. And that is why the EU are treating us the way they are. They don't want to be without our money at the highest level and on an individual level the likes of Tusk and Junker want their personal gravy trains to persist. Anyway, the bit we can agree on Pete is we need parliamentary and electoral reform. The current system is no longer fit for purpose - something I suspect that is more to do with the people in the system currently (our MPs) than perhaps the system itself. East Hants was remain and Mr Hinds has a mandate to therefore vote remain in the House. Those MPs who have voted in opposition to their mandate are an absolute disgrace and a stain on democracy. As someone who voted leave, but as an East Hants constituent, I'd be curious if Hinds voted anything other than remain. This sort of situation very rarely arises - once elected as an MP they can vote how they see fit but not where a referendum is concerned. Otherwise, as is being demonstrated now, there is no point in ever holding a referendum.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (29th Mar 2019 - 13:53:29) in response to29th Mar 2019 @ 10:21:46 So, following pre-2016 years of moaning Leave campaign havenow truck lucky, we are suddenly opposed to referenda? Just because someone THINKS they know what the outcome would be we no longer take votes? Yes, some UK requests as part of the EU membership were rejected just as well as some major requests have been accepted. UK prime ministers representing the UK at the EU have also represented a strong anti-EU lobby at home. The EU representatives are well aware of this British 'peculiarity'. It's true to say that Torry prime ministers were (e.g. Camron) and still are (e.g. May) isolated in the EU. They were made isolated by their own anti-EU British colleagues. Should you chose to represent anti-EU notions, do you find it surprising when you occasionally here a "No, non, nein" answer to your requests.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (29th Mar 2019 - 14:06:59) Furious, not "curious". I'm now furious with my autocorrect 😂

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Terence (29th Mar 2019 - 14:18:03) Why all this obsession with the EU? Given that 70,000 operations were cancelled in the NHS last year, we have 40,000 vacancies for nurses, the 62 day target for cancer treatment missed in the last 3 years, 3 million children living in relative poverty, homelessness at a record high, Universal Credit driving people into debt, 1.4 million food bank parcells given out each year in the 5th richest country in the world and life expectancy falling. None of these problems have been created by our relationship with Europe as they have all been hand crafted in Downlng Street. Please, if you are going to get angry about anything today, please direct your anger about the "national shame" that these "crisis" deserve.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (29th Mar 2019 - 15:05:15) in response to 29th Mar 2019 @ 13:08:32 Voting to exit the EU because you are dismayed with British politics is an example of an IRRELEVANT vote, as many have been. in response to 29th Mar 2019 @ 13:38:57 If only this was just about the money... Nonetheless, it is very much about the money, and big money it is for decades to come. What is a gravy train? have you ever seen one or take Leave campaigns infamous word for it? Yes the EU needs UK's money but UK's need for EU economic benefits is even greater. Shoot own foot.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (29th Mar 2019 - 15:13:32) Regrexit - whilst your post is not clear, I was responding to someone saying that a new vote would definitely be to remain. My feeling is otherwise. I'm entitled to my opinion - last time I looked this was a democracy. Oh, hang on....

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (29th Mar 2019 - 16:16:07) Hi Aidy I personally think (and please don't think I am not receptive and understanding of other peoples opinions) that soundbites are just that and can be easily misconstrued. I cannot blame them for putting the rest of the union first. Parliamentary gravy trains are not exclusively European thing and there is just as much if not more work to be done sorting out our own mire. I am not under any illusion that the e.u is perfect and it certainly needs work but am still of the opinion we would be better off trying to fix the problems from within. We are not the greatest contributor though I concede we are near the top but that is the whole ethos of the union to allow other countries to develop enabling them to also become net contributors for the benefit of the whole. Whether we would be better off long or short term with either outcome can only be speculation at this stage. I have recently seen several times a breakdown of votes casts, constituency results, regional results and how MPs have voted being circulated by leave sites on Facebook etc. The reason I believe our whole system is not fit for purpose is the huge disparity between the number of votes cast for each choice (not far off equal) and the regional and constituency results (percentage wise heavily on the leave side). If nearly half the population voted remain I would think it follows as good as half of MPs are of a mind to remain and yet well under half represent a remain constituency it just doesn't up and this is why I have come to the conclusion it is the system that is fundamentally flawed. Until we have some form of proportional representation this cannot be fixed. The one good thing to come out of this whole mess is that it has shown these inadequacies very clearly and maybe (just maybe) things may change. May I just say it is a pleasure to have a reasonable debate with someone without it descending into vitriol which increasingly seems to be the case as of late.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (29th Mar 2019 - 16:55:32) THIS IS INTERESTING EU Referendum Results 2016 By Votes 17.4m Leave 16.1m Remain By Constituency 406 Leave 242 Remain Constituency by Party Lab: 148 Leave 84 Remain Con: 247 Leave 80 Remain By Region 9 Leave 3 Remain By MP 160 Leave 486 Remain Brexit is not the problem. It is our MPs who are the problem

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (29th Mar 2019 - 18:55:25) Penny. See post above, these are the figures I was alluding to. It's not the MPs at fault it's the whole system how can a near on 50/50 vote translate to a 406/242 constituency split.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - David Lambert (29th Mar 2019 - 19:45:36) Very true words Penny. We should all have the right to know how all the MP's have voted in the House of Commons on Brexit and when the next General Election comes along we can get rid of them once and for ever. Most are traitors and scum only looking after themselves and sticking two fingers up to the general public. A complete disgrace.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Kate (29th Mar 2019 - 19:49:40) As interesting as your stats are Penny they are approaching 3 years old. I suspect and I know most of you regardless of what side your on also suspect the result would be very different if it was taken today. Any vote, today, tomorrow or the day after is still democratic, look at May, she has forced 2 votes on exactly the same question within weeks, and a 3rd on exactly the same thing albeit half of the same thing. For some to refuse a new democratic vote by claiming you want your older democratic vote to count is just bonkers. Thats like saying I voted for conservate back in 1980s and I want all future governements since then to still be consersative because of the vote I cast back in the 80s. This subject is going to rattle on for years, and all because Cameron allowed the referendum so he wouldnt lose 15 or so members of his party to go to UKIP, the whole bloody mess was opened up just so the selfservatives could hold onto power. If there is another election the people should teach them all a lesson and boot Conseratives, Labour and the Lib Dems out the door and vote in something new. Wipe the floor with them.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (29th Mar 2019 - 22:31:11) This whole thread illustrates exactly why this is such a difficult thing to achieve. All the time there are people who have such a narrow minded I'm 100% right and anybody who says otherwise is traitorous scum attitude it will just get more and more difficult to resolve. While I'm on the matter, Mr Lambert, you make a statement earlier on in the thread "no way would the leavers chase another vote" Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it the then Ukip leader Farage that said before the vote "in a 52/48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Kate (29th Mar 2019 - 23:29:40) Liam Fox 2017 "The Free Trade agreement that we will do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history" FACT Michael Gove 2016 "The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want" FACT Jacob Rees Mogg 2011 "We could have two referendums. As it happens it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed" FACT David Davis 2016 "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" FACT David Davis 2012 "If democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy" FACT Leave EU 2017 "They said business would flee if we voted to leave, but instead we're seeing great British innovators like Dyson investing in the UK" FACT Update 2019 - Dyson announces its moving its UK head office to Singapore Leave EU 2016 "Project fear claims Nissan would scale back UK operation could not have been further from the truth!" Update 2019 - Nissan scraps plan to build x-trail in britain. Nigel Farage 2017 "If Brexit is a distaster, I will go and live abroad" FACT Nigel Farage 2016 "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way" FACT A small selection

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (30th Mar 2019 - 10:30:31) Kate you are not comparing like with like when you say “ look at May, she has forced 2 votes on exactly the same question within weeks, and a 3rd on exactly the same thing albeit half of the same thing.” She has been trying for the past nearly 3 years to honour the Conservative Party Manifesto and the result of the referendum, which however close, was a democratic decision. Unlike you I would not predict the result if there was another referendum. It could go either way. However there are a great many people who voted Remain who are now disgusted at the way politicians in all parties and the Commission have behaved and have publicly said on this site that if they had to vote again they would vote to Leave. FACT It is well known that there are a great many Remain MPs who in spite of the fact that their constituents voted to Leave, right from the beginning have consistently sought to undermine negotiations behind the scenes to engineer the failure of any deal. Those are the politicians who we should blame. I believe that Dominic Grieve has now lost the confidence of his Constituency Party. He has done so much damage in these negotiations and deserves to be deselected. These Remain politicians are the ones who have largely contributed to this mess. They are undemocratic and are threatening the very foundation of our Constitution. If at the beginning all MPs had worked together, left No Deal on the table, with the Civil Service planning for this in the worse case scenario, then I truly believe we would have been negotiating from a position of strength and a much better deal would have been reached. As it was the EU Commission, that unelected and unaccountable body, who have not had their accounts signed off by the auditors for years and who move the whole unwieldy organisation from Brussels to Strasbourg every 3 months costing £millions, know that we are divided and fighting among ourselves and therefore trying to negotiate from a position of weakness. If we do not leave the EU the backlash will be catastrophic and those people who still believe in our democracy and our politicians will never trust them again.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - oldie (30th Mar 2019 - 10:44:43) 2016: Almost everyone was certain the people would vote to remain. The EU were certain, the Prime Minister was certain, the media was certain, the establishment was certain, the remainers were certain. The people voted to leave. We are about to leave. 2019: If we have a second referendum (which the remoaners say we must have because the leavers couldn't know what they were thinking, of course), noone is certain we will vote to remain, the PM isn't certain, the EU isn't certain, the media aren't certain, the establishment isn't certain, the Leave majority isn't certain, but the Remain minority are certain of course and say we will and must have a second vote or there will be trouble (from them) Sounds like desperation. Maybe by the sixth or seventh vote we'll be so sick of it we'll all just vote to remain. Or else apparently we can expect 'violence on the streets'. I didn't vote to leave, won't be a financial winner but I think we should teach the 'my way or the highway' generation that GB sticks by it's decisions. There should be another vote but it will now have to be after we have left and given it our united best try (as the OP said) and won't be 'leave or remain' but 'remain (out) or go back'. Then the current brexiteers will become remainers and we'll need a new name for the remainers, not remoaners perhaps they will be backsliders? So I'd gear up for that instead of continually flogging this dead horse and as the Americans say 'suck it up' or even worse 'man up' or 'step up to the plate' I don't know which way I'd vote for that because we haven't given it a go yet. That's what our politicians must continue to focus on now, agreeing a separation with the EU and making sure we have a framework to discuss how it's gone like grown ups and keep talks open, you could call it a trial separation if you like. I don't think the EU is mature enough to behave like that though it just seems to be acting out of spite like it always has, overbearing and arrogant, lets hope the remainers swallow their pride once they see we're off and get behind Britain

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - David Lambert (30th Mar 2019 - 11:53:12) Pete, I think you may have misread my post on the 25th. March. I said that if the Leave had lost they would not of chased for a another vote because they would have been told we had a vote you lost so be it.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (30th Mar 2019 - 12:26:18) Sorry David but that is exactly whats happening but the other way round, the remainers are constantly being told we had a vote you lost get over it and I don't believe if the vote had gone the other way it would be any different. Of course the leave side would carry on campaigning and chase for another vote which is exactly what I would expect them to do if they believed in their cause that strongly. If you believe in something strongly enough you do not give up at the first hurdle. I did not miss-read or misinterpret your post I just don't believe that you would give up that easily.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Kate (30th Mar 2019 - 22:24:17) At the end this is a divisive issue, split nearly down the middle, we should not be losing our minds with each other on it. Everyone should be free to present and challenge their points of view. What is not acceptable is nonsense, being told to "get on with it" is nonsense to those that dont want it. When a government wins an election the losing party does not just fold its arms and saying absolutely nothing for 4 years since the other side won. Some of you are advocating exactly this, which is basically the same as saying the conservatives won the last election and all other parties should shut their mouth's, saying nothing at all in parliament, in fact they should even attend it. That is nonsense... utter nonsense. The only reason anyone whom voted to lease does not want another referendum isnt anything other than the fact and fear they think they will lose it, all this posturing about democracy is just nonsense to cover that fact up. Any vote, today tomorrow or the day after is still democratic, failure to deliver on leave has nothing to do with democracy. Democracy is the vote, not the delivery, and that failure to deliver exists in whom we voted to govern us and in the widely changing implications not properly envisioned prior to the vote. At the time leave told us about a pot of gold waiting after leaving, now that that's not going to happen they have changed their tune and attacked the remainer's as the cause, which is utter nonsense! We both only had the power to tick a box, not of us have the power to decapitate the country and its well being. Which by the way, leaving will.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (30th Mar 2019 - 23:17:31) in response to 30th Mar 2019 @ 10:30:31 Future referendum voters voting to Leave the EU because they are dismayed with UK politicians? That's a misuse of the right to vote, yet another way 2016 referendum has been flawed. The EU Commission is democratically accountable (despite what Project-Fear-Not want us to think) and have proven to be more than patient with the fidgeting and chaotic mess taking place across the channel from Brussels since the referendum. During the turbulence since 2016 we have witnessed how much worse is the functioning of the UK parliament compared with that of the EU. This should -if at all sensible - reinforce pro-EU notions amongst UK electorate, but hey... in response to 30th Mar 2019 @ 10:44:43 Remoaners: moaning and moan again, re-noan - is precisely what the Leave campaign are and have been doing for decades. Backsliders: Leave campaign wanting to throw us out of the beneficial status quo, back to the centuries of waring, and post WWII days when Old Blighty was doing so poorly it had no choice but join the EU. Try to use terms derogatively - expect a retribution. 'my way or highway' was the Brexit-means-Brexit rhetorics and "red lines" precisely. Leave as a 'trial separation'? That's not as simple as a no-deal. The more complicated you make it (cherry-picking) the more likely you are to find out it is undeliverable. As was the case with the 2016 results. I can't blame anyone who hasn't got the guts for a cliff-edge exit just to try it out for the heck of it: it's too expensive and otherwise too risky.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (31st Mar 2019 - 00:18:56) Penny, The poster boy of the Brexit right of the Conservatives, Boris, today said that Dominic Grieve is a good man and a true Conservative. I happen to think he (Grieve) is the most principled Conservative. I understand that his local association has been infiltrated by UKIP and the proportion of his association that voted was tiny. You also said that the MPs should have got together at the start of the process. So do they. It was Mrs May's Lancaster House speech that closed the door to cross-party cooperation and, to quote Mr Lambert, it was 'my way or the highway' from the beginning. Labour have not covered themselves in glory on Brexit, but ultimately, the Conservative Party is wholly responsible for getting us into this mess and perpetuating it. Don't forget that 30 Brexit fetishists on the Tory benches voted against her on Friday. Many of the 'remoaner' Tory MPs backed her deal. Now I read in the headlines that May is considering calling a General Election - in the middle of all this chaos! The Tories just look out for themselves. It is so clear to me that a confirmatory referendum on whatever parliament decides next week is appropriate. It is exactly how strike ballots are required to work - you choose to go (on strike), you then negotiate with management (or in this case, the EU), then you have a vote on whether the deal agreed is any good before going (or striking). The Conservatives thought that was the democratic way. Democracy is a slippery thing, it seems. A confirmatory vote won't lead to a best of three, or five, or seven. If Britain votes to go with the leave deal, then that is what happens. The deal will have been ratified by the people and everyone will know that Britain is happy with it. If the majority of the electorate, three years on and with all the facts at its disposal, still want to leave, why are die-hard leavers so concerned about a confirmatory vote? Democracy is not undermined by an exercise in democracy. Farage said on Friday that if there is a confirmatory vote then the UK would vote leave by a bigger majority. Well let's find out, then we'll know and there won't be any argument about it. Leavers may get angry that there is a vote, but remainers, almost half of the electorate, are angry that their concerns and views have been ignored and dismissed by this PM. Just because you win an election, you don't just rule for the people who vote for you, you rule for everyone and the opposition have a voice and can oppose bad decisions. Someone is going to be angry whatever happens now, it can't be avoided. Hyperbole about 'democracy being dead' will continue from one side or the other. I was dismayed by the comment in this thread that we should leave and, if it is a bit pants, then negotiate to go back in. Think of the damage this will do. If we rejoin, we will lose all our rebates, vetoes and our currency. If we stay we keep all these things and our industry and financial services jobs. Mr Cameron and Mrs May have done more damage to our country and our reputation than any prime minister before them, even Anthony Eden! They should have ignored the right-wing press and its daily drip-feed of anti-EU radicalisation over 30 years, but they chose to appease them.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Phil (31st Mar 2019 - 10:10:40) Why has Cameron “done more damage to our country”? This is a nonsense statement. We had a “people’s vote” which showed us how out of touch the politicians and establishment really are. I call this enlightenment. Yes we are in a tricky political position now, but when things get tricky do we just simply give up? Are we scared of the unknown? Are the politicians living in their media fuelled bubble and ignoring just how well the economy is doing despite this “tricky political” situation? Are the people not just getting on with their lives? Wouldn’t this also be the case even in the event of a “no deal” Brexit? It seems to me a lot of people on this forum are comfortable with the status quo, willing to ignore a democratic vote, safe in the knowledge that things won’t change and yes ultimately scared of change. My answer is that you should just remember this isn’t remotely the most threatening issue this country has faced in the last 10 years let alone the last 100.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (31st Mar 2019 - 11:29:25) As Jeremy Paxman (a Conservative) said of David Cameron, he "put the interest of his party before the interest of the country and decided to have this referendum. Believed one thing was the only right outcome for the country, didn't campaign for it, got the opposite outcome and then bu**ered off!" Phil, you are clearly a true, signed-up believer to the Brexit cause, but at least half of us see things differently. You say that some people just want the status quo - well look, the economy was the strongest in Europe just ahead of the referendum, so what is wrong with that status quo? You say the economy is doing well now - well, if that is the case before a no-deal Brexit has happened, why risk it? Right now, our businesses can trade freely with their customers and suppliers in the EU. Possibly, after April 12th, they won't. What is wrong with having a strong economy? It pays for public services. We had a vote based on next-to-zero information (how many people had heard of the customs union in 2016, truthfully), no plan whatsoever on how Brexit would be carried out, pie-in-the-sky promises and Vote Leave broke electoral law, as ruled in a court of law. That is banana-republic democracy. We have a chance to put it to the people based on all of the facts - that has to be the democratic thing to do.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Ian (31st Mar 2019 - 13:15:59) Phil, you are clearly living in cloud cuckoo land! The holes in your post are as large as many MEP's expenses. Brexit is going to be very painful for the UK and for many hardworking people it is already creating enormous stresses. Your glibness really does show a lack of understanding of the issues this nation is going through! And by the way, even as a brexit supporter I believe we hardly had a meaningful majority vote, the referendum was a complete balls up and Cameron is totally responsible for that mess!I

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (31st Mar 2019 - 16:39:15) in response to 31st Mar 2019 @ 11:29:25 Jack, I agree with you. The irony is that the UK now (as an EU member) has the best possible trade relations with the biggest economic block. The UK is also in the best leverage position to trade with economies outside the EU largely THANKS to its being a member of the heavyweight EU (e.g. the recent Italo-Chinese agreement). Once we leave the EU our trade with the EU would NECESSARILY degrade AND we will lose the clout of the EU membership when we attempt to strike trade outside the EU. The double irony is that the UK's economy post-brexit is projected to shrink, that means even poorer trade negotiating power with the EU or non-EU economies... By the way, brexit damage goes far beyond the economy.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Diane (1st Apr 2019 - 09:30:09) The only people who knew what they were voting for in the referendum were the people who voted for remain, The Status Quo. Those who voted to leave had no idea of how it would work or what they were voting for

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Phil (1st Apr 2019 - 13:14:59) And this is exactly why the political situation is an utter mess. Most people (of which I was one) and many politicians who voted remain want nothing other than remain even if that goes against the majority will. So at heart we are seeing a “not in my backyard” anti democratic sentiment on display by many on this forum.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (1st Apr 2019 - 15:57:27) Diane. Nope. You're wrong. That's just an oft repeated mantra from Remainers in the same way that "you lost, deal with it" is from leavers. I'd argue that Remainers had (and have) just as blurred a view over what they think they were voting for as leavers. You don't know with any certainty whatsoever what the future in the EU has to offer. My fear is a Federal Europe. I believe that's the long game. I know some Remainers who want that and others that just want the status quo and are convinced a federal Europe won't happen.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (1st Apr 2019 - 18:30:21) and they accuse Remainers of Project Fear!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (1st Apr 2019 - 21:12:05) Jack. Not really project fear is it when it's commonly and openly talked about by various eurocrats and politicians as an aspiration?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (2nd Apr 2019 - 06:16:42) in response to1st Apr 2019 @ 15:57:27 We don't know what the future of the EU holds? - and you know what the future of the UK once it had lost it's membership?! That's rich. You don't even know when and how the UK might have itself expelled from the club :) “Federal Europe”: well done for the resonating terminology, pity about the misuse of it though. It's a typical Leave project fear nonsense. If the EU wanted to be a federation they would have been one by now. Yes, many non-UK EU members are seeking closer unity. Many benefits to that. What's to fear? This is like a person from Hampshire fearing the concept of a National United Kingdom – scary! And how? We'll have people in Whitehall & Westminster on gravy trains or Sauce Tubes dictating our rules and limiting our trade freedoms, deciding how many new homes to be built in Liphook and property prices affected by London, corrupt politicians in parliament (like J. R. Mogg?), unelected parties in government (like DUP), we will be forced to sponsor failed organisations (like NHS, BR), we would be going to wars against our wishes, we will be paying salaries and expenses of many civil servants not fit for office, Norfolk migrants free to settle and claim benefits in balmy Hampshire, we will be forced to stick with the UK's economy predicted to slow down, we'll have different speed economies north-south divide with the South propping up other UK regions, divide etc... Sounds familiar? Seen this some-place before this side of the Channel? Can you see how Leave scaremongering works? It still works well.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (2nd Apr 2019 - 10:07:12) Regrexit - do you have some sort of problem referring to people by their names on here? I'm Aidy, not a date and time...You come across as rude and condescending by not using names. You spectacularly missed the main point I was making which is that BOTH sides do not know what the future holds if we stay or leave. That's an actual FACT for you in this mire of lies, spin, mistruths and project(s) fear. I have not used the term "Federal Europe" incorrectly. It's a distinct, specific, named objective for some politicians. You don't have to dig too deep to find evidence of that. The rest of your post is just a bit of a rant that I don't think warrants a response. I know remainers sneer at it as an argument but we did fight twice to avoid a kind of Federal Europe very, very recently. Why would we accept a "peaceful" attempt at the same thing? I'm all for lots of trade deals and so on. We are physically part of Europe. However, I don't want to be governed in part by countries that have historically been, and continue to be, politically very different from us.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (2nd Apr 2019 - 13:45:33) Aidy, A UK involvement in a federal Europe is not likely because: a) Eastern Europeans and particularly Balkan states are highly nationalistic and would block any attempt. Remember, some of these countries have only just found their national identify after years of Soviet/Yugoslav tyranny, b) even in the Western European countries, the rise of the National Front in France and AfD in Germany create a political setting where federalism is an idea most unlikely to be developed, c) the EU has already agreed a UK opt-out to 'ever-closer union', I don't doubt that some individuals in Europe like the idea but the UK can never be pushed into it. Even if you set aside all of the above facts, the UK could always trigger Article 50 on the cusp of such arrangement happening - there is really no need to scupper our economy now on the off-chance of someone's fantasy.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (2nd Apr 2019 - 15:32:20) This is worth watching. This lady is German and is for Britain. This woman is in the German parliament and for Britain! youtu.be/63IcW4eo4uM

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (2nd Apr 2019 - 16:57:37) Penny Don't really think Britain needs the support of a right wing fascist bigot.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (2nd Apr 2019 - 17:01:20) We have enough of those in this country as it is.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (2nd Apr 2019 - 20:47:00) Be honest Pete, you didn't watch any more than 10 seconds of that did you?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (3rd Apr 2019 - 05:58:52) in response to2nd Apr 2019 @ 15:32:20 An impressive presentation, I watched it all, thank you. If she was laying out the future of the EU from a less pro-EU point of view then she must have forgotten to mention the absolutely "known fact" that we are all being corralled against our wishes into a nasty "Federal" Europe. According to 1st Apr 2019 @ 15:57:27, we just 'don't know with any certainty whatsoever what the future in the EU has to offer', what makes the speaker in the video so different from us all, Remain and Leave? She seems to have read and recited from The Future book.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (3rd Apr 2019 - 09:36:01) I did watch it all and there is no denying she is a very skilful orator who will appeal to many but then so was Hitler. The content of this speech is neither here nor there regarding my previous comment, I personally just dont think there is a place in today's society for the kind of rhetoric she has spouted in the past.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (3rd Apr 2019 - 10:28:37) Well said Pete.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (3rd Apr 2019 - 14:27:58) Penny and Aidy, Alternative für Deutschland is an anti-Islam party. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/islam-free-ads-show-face-of-afd-germanys-far-right-v0t9lhpz6 I presume that you did not know this when you posted?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (3rd Apr 2019 - 14:30:33) Peter What did the German lady Parliamentarian say that makes you call her a "right wing fascist bigot"?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (3rd Apr 2019 - 14:53:05) Jack - I didn't post the clip, nor did I make any comment whatsoever on its content. However, it would be totally possible to agree with much of what she said without being anti-islamist oneself in precisely the same way as it's possible to vote leave and not be a racist. Doesn't suit your agenda that though, does it?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (3rd Apr 2019 - 15:35:40) Aidy, there is no connection between the two. Promoting, or endorsing the views expressed by a racist party does nothing to convert remainers to your agenda. There is real concern in Germany that AfD is promoting Nazi sentiments. If these are the sort of people leavers need to make their points for them then they cannot claim the moral high ground. Just quoting the arguement that the opportunist Jacob Rees-Mogg tried this morning isn't convincing. His reaction this morning when challenged about sharing the video, also posted here by Penny, was to say that the BBC are all lefties! I don't have an agenda, Aidy, other than to say that our politics and economy have been held hostage by Brexit fantasists for nearly three years now. Enough. I don't really know what your agenda is. It seems to be spreading nonsense rumours of a federal Europe that we can't escape and now arguing that we should be listening to what the far-right of Germany has to say about us. If a leaver could make a sound, convincing economic justification for Brexit, I'm prepared to listen, but not scaremongering about federalism and sovereignty.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (3rd Apr 2019 - 15:42:59) Aidy I couldn't have put that any better - thank you. I am not anti-islamic, jewish or anything else, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating a speech with a great deal of commonsense in it. Jack's post leaves me wondering who the true bigots are. He was so quick to condemn you and make assumptions about us both. In my opinion he and his ilk have largely contributed to this mess. The majority of Leavers do still want to trade with their European partners but not to be dictated to by them. If the EU had been more tolerant in the first place and stuck to the original Trading Agreement drawn up in the 1970's. Farage would not have had the following he did. Jack and others seem to forget there was a great deal of growing unrest about the way the EU Commission had been behaving for years and it was getting worse.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (3rd Apr 2019 - 16:15:01) Blimey! In my post of 14.27 today, I simply pointed out the AfD is a racist party. I assumed that you didn't perhaps know that; I was giving you both the benefit of the doubt. Re-read the post, instead of jumpily assuming that you are being accused of racism. I have now been accused of being a bigot. Your responses seem very defensive. I did not accuse either of you of being racist, nor did I believe that you are. I just suggested, like others, that bringing AfD into this isn't really helping. The Front Nationale have been very supportive of the Brexit cause; should we be listening to them too? How about Putin?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (3rd Apr 2019 - 16:31:46) It is common knowledge that the BBC has become more left wing in recent years. I don't know where you have been not to know that. The left fuel the right and vice versa. We need moderates who listen to facts and who are not judgemental - and you still have not said what it was in Alice Weidel's speech that made you call her a bigoted fascist. I have listened to it again, or rather read the subtitles and could not see anything biogted in it at all. Please enlighten me.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (3rd Apr 2019 - 16:49:45) Penny As I pointed out it is not the content of this speech but try looking up some transcripts of previous rants of hers. Hope not hate would be a good place to start.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (3rd Apr 2019 - 17:45:02) Penny, please provide us with the evidence of the BBC's left-wing bias.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Phil (3rd Apr 2019 - 22:45:51) Pete- I am no advocate of the AFD policies, but it would be useful to understand how this party has become so powerful in a country that is so prosperous, European and stable as Germany is today. 1. The German electoral system is a type of proportional representation, which we are lucky not to have in the UK. 2. Up until recently, the AFD had no support in the country. 3. Merkel’s unilateral decision to open the borders to 1m Middle Eastern refugees (and let’s not get into the causes of this) caused consternation in Germany and across Europe. 4. The German population have told Merkel what they think of this and the result is the rise of the AFD. 5. Merkel, with the complicit support of the EU unelected representatives decided it would be best to distribute the 1m refugees “fairly” across Europe. 6. A number of EU countries have told her and the EU where to go. 7. Leaders of said countries have been vilified as being right wing anti Europeans. 8. People wonder why anti EU sentiment is on the rise not just in the UK but in almost every European country. 9. So whilst the AFD has a dubious history and some horrible people who are less than savoury, a lot of Germans are voting for them. 10. So the AFD can have an opinion on Brexit has they have been democratically elected and people in Germany and elsewhere will take notice. 11. There is nothing wrong with Brexit, all it means is that we should get back our sovereignty, it doesn’t mean, in my opinion, that we want to distance ourselves from Europe. 12. The people negotiating for the EU i.e. Barnier have a vested interest in keeping the status quo - they have well paid jobs and do not have to answer to the people for their decisions. But it is clear that a lot of people are telling the politicians across Europe that things cannot continue like this. 13. Unfortunately in my opinion support foot the AFD will continue to grow and the EU is responsible for it. So whilst you judge people quoting them, think about what the reasons for their growth.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Phil (3rd Apr 2019 - 22:50:59) Jack - an addendum. 52% of the turnout or 17m voted for leaving the EU - are you saying that all of these people would effectively be Front National supporters if they were French or AFD supporters If German?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (3rd Apr 2019 - 23:13:14) Phil Can't see where in any of my posts that I was judging anyone with the exception of Alice weidel and I make no apology for that. Regardless of the reasons of their limited surge in popularity it doesn't make the politics of hate right.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (4th Apr 2019 - 07:09:25) Thank you for your 3rd Apr 2019 @ 22:45:51 contribution Phil. Not entirely sure why each sentence is number as if it was a stand-alone additional reasoning, but I do find it helpful when picking at your extended text. Your sentence 6: Sounds like EU nations are protecting their own national interests from WITHIN the EU.This is no big momentum for a painful exit. 8: Yes, the EU isn't perfect, but accusing the EU for internal national (UK, German or other) problems is irrelevant. The deflection from home affairs onto EU-dissatisfaction serves narrow interests and spurious populists. 11: Look back in history distant or recent, near or far, you will find that the experience of 'sovereignty' is either an aspiration or a temporary one. Any population will have leaders whose job is to sometimes say no to parts of the population in order to facilitate something. The UK within the EU was awarded quite a few perks of exemptions and opting out's. Here we are governed by Winchester, Westminster and others. We will not always get what we want because we enjoy the benefit of being part of a bigger whole. Every now and then, amongst any group of individuals, there will be a genuine dismay or a populist who will be stirring up a sense of betrayal and promise that the true salvation is just around the corner. It's human nature to fall into those traps. Pies in the sky will crash into a mess. You force unattainable cherry-picked bespoke fantasies on the UK parliament - don't be surprised when they fail to deliver and (would rather) pass the buck back to the voters. 12: EU officials support the EU, this is not a "vested" interest. General note: Refugees are immigrants genuinely fleeing an impossible situation not of their own making and to the first safe haven. Surely the millions we are talking about were never scrutinised to that effect and should therefore not be awarded the term refugees but instead: Immigrants (most are likely economical immigration).

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (4th Apr 2019 - 07:36:36) Phil, re your addendum, I'm not saying anything of the sort! I'm was merely surprised that Brexiteers are now holding AfD up as a paragon of wisdom and wondered who else the posters were embracing. I was also interested in your comment about being relieved that we don't have proportional representation. Well, first past the post is working out brilliantly at the moment, isn't it! Proportional representation (which is used in some of our devolved administrations), would be very welcome now. It would lead to more consensus politics, particularly helpful as the parties become more extreme and the political temperature is dangerously high. Think about this: I will never vote Conservative again. Yet, East Hampshire will always vote Conservative. So, myself and every Liberal, Labour, Green, Independent minded person is entirely disenfranchised here. That is why people feel that politics doesn't work for them. In PR, every vote matters and I don't have a problem with that.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (4th Apr 2019 - 09:55:59) Jack. Please stop putting words into my mouth. It's a childish and pathetic way of arguing. I can agree with some of what the AFD lady said without holding her up to be a "paragon of wisdom." Those are your words. I didn't even post the original link or comment on it initially yet you've used it as a bandwagon to jump on. We cannot have sensible, pragmatic and informed debate if you're going to post in this fashion. You'd probably call me a Nazi if I'd agreed with Hitler saying "it's a nice day." To paraphrase your argument, you do the remain campaign no favours with this kind of behaviour.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jack (4th Apr 2019 - 11:07:26) I'm bowing out here. Aidy's post is so aggressive and a misinterpretation of the point I was making. It is clearly pointless trying to engage on this. Of course, it is also irrelevant, as, without a Peoples Vote, how this all plays-out is not in any of our hands. Good luck all.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (4th Apr 2019 - 11:28:17) Jack. My post was not meant to be aggressive at all and I don't think it is. Reading it again, it's actually polite. I'm sorry you feel otherwise. I'm just incredibly frustrated with the way you have represented my posts in your responses. I think I have made that clear. And what was the vote in 2016 if it wasn't a people's vote?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Penny Williamson (4th Apr 2019 - 15:19:15) Jack, I am surprised you need examples of the BBC’s left wing bias. I don’t know where to begin but I will just quote 3 at the risk of boring the readers. Mr Naughtie quite shamefully said that the ERG is like the National Front in France.” He has since apologised. Mishal Husain on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Wednesday consistently interrupted Jacob Rees-Mogg until he eventually asked her to stop interrupting so that he could answer the question. Whether you like Jacob’s ideas or not he must be free to speak. Iain Duncan Smith, when he suggested that Child Benefit should be limited to two children, was asked by John Humphreys if he was happy for children born after that to starve. Not recent – but how immotive. Iain Duncan Smith is one of the moderates. Just open your eyes Jack. For the record I don’t think Aidy’s posts are aggressive, but I think yours are and without foundation and I quote “I'm was merely surprised that Brexiteers are now holding AfD up as a paragon of wisdom” . Nowhere in our posts did either Aidy or myself hold AFD as a paragon of wisdom. We just agreed with the content of Alice Weidel’s speech with regard to Brexit and the EU. You yourself could not find anything to criticise her in that speech either because if you had you would assuredly have posted it on this site. As Phil said the AFD until recently had no support in the country but Merkel’s unilateral decision to open the borders to 1m Middle Eastern refugees was a big mistake and has caused consternation in Germany and across Europe. The result of this was the rise of AFD. Pete has said that “regardless of the reasons of their limited surge in popularity it doesn't make the politics of hate right.” Of course it doesn’t – that goes without saying but we are where we are and that fact is that when human beings feel frightened and threatened their very worst instincts come to the fore. It is called survival. Best not to create conditions that promote such feelings. Of course I feel enormously sorry for migrants and refugees particularly those fleeing from war-torn countries, but however much other countries would like to help, the stability of their own country and their own people must come first otherwise it is a lose/lose situation. Finally I do wish everyone would stop calling it a "Peoples' Vote" It is another Referendum. Incidentally the vote to rule out "No Deal" in Parliament was won by one vote yesterday. Perhaps we should have a second vote on that as well!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (4th Apr 2019 - 16:12:29) Well seeing as almost all the rest of the media in this country is unashamedly right wing I would say it balances things up nicely.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Bernard (4th Apr 2019 - 18:01:43) Comments like 'childish and pathetic' and 'open your eyes" show just how intractable and entrenched opinions are on this subject. I don't see how the two sides will ever reconcile. Its not an easy subject to be moderate about. Once we are out, there is no going back. Unlike other political matters, on this there is no halfway-house compromise other than the customs union that MPs now seem to be heading towards and that doesn't really suit remainers or leavers. I fear we are in for a generation of resentment in this country. I think, seeing as John Humphys is a Brexiteer, Nick Robinson has held office in the Conservative party and Laura Kuenssburg needed protection at the Labour Party conference for perceived Conservative bias, it is a mistake to say that the BBC has a left-wing bias. I suppose the perception comes down to how far on the left or right you are on the scale. I think, on balance, they are pretty fair - perhaps a bit boringly neutral at times. Jack, if you are still bothering with this endless thread, it is not a People's Vote; it is a confirmatory referendum.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Helen (4th Apr 2019 - 18:36:39) www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/opinion/brexit-news.html

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Helen (4th Apr 2019 - 19:16:03) bylinetimes.com/2019/04/03/lethal-victimhood-how-the-far-rights-tactic-of-reverse-terror-is-spreading-into-mainstream-media

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (4th Apr 2019 - 21:04:46) Bernard. You misquoting the situation doesn't help much either. The "childish and pathetic" quote relates specifically to the way the argument was being made, not the content of the argument itself.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (5th Apr 2019 - 10:08:29) What about this for an idea? Give the vote to the people that turned 18 since the last people's brexit vote, as they are the generation that's going to have sort this all out

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - A.R (5th Apr 2019 - 11:15:06) No Jacob, I have three in their early twenties and they do not understand anything about the EU, in fact up until we voted out I don't think they possibly realised they were in. They certainly knew nothing of the politics within the EU. You can not let people vote blindly on the fact that they would probably vote the opposite of their parents. The older generation have had years of understanding politics and the EU and have seen it morph from the trading partnership into something so large and consuming where a vast amount of money is being wasted on a pointless parliament. It is not working and in not so many years will collapse, it is only a matter of time.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - oldie (5th Apr 2019 - 11:50:18) Jacob, It evens out as some become 18 others mature from naïve teenager to wise old owl, ha ha. Not that Jacob knows how every 18 year old would vote anyway!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Bernard (5th Apr 2019 - 13:13:26) A.R. and oldie, you do have a very dim view of our youth! My teenagers are pretty clued-up on politics and understand the issues well, as do quite a few of their friends. Jacob might not know how all 18 year-old's will vote, but similarly you cannot generalise that all young people are disinterested or unwise. Reading through this thread, there are clearly some very unwise older people too! Whilst there are undoubtedly some young Brexiteers, according to BBC report last October: 'studies suggest just over 70% of 18-24 year-olds voted Remain, while just under 30% opted to vote Leave. The older you are, the more likely you were to vote Leave'. As Jacob says, it is the young that will have to deal with the fall-out of Brexit, If there is a confirmatory vote, it must include 16 and 17 year olds. This was the case in the Scottish Independence vote and, whilst I appreciate that there is a distinct legal system in Scotland, it still doesn't seem very constitutional to include them in one and not the other. It limits the franchise and, on the above evidence, skewed the result. Helen, I thought the NY Times article you liked-to was really interesting; it is sad to see how we are now viewed from the US. I hope this is all a bad dream that we will soon wake from!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - A.R (5th Apr 2019 - 13:43:20) It's quite funny really, mostly in life older people like to stick with the status quo, whereas the younger, more liberal like to embark on a journey. How we have been proved wrong in this. It seems quite the reverse. Bernard, you must have some very studious youngsters I must say, and no I certainly do not have a dim view of youngsters. I think I would be hard pressed to find a bunch of youngsters chatting about Brexit. Thinking back to my earlier years coming from a socialist household my thoughts on politics went over my head too. My father was very keen, however so as I got older I too took more interest. But to expect a 16 year old to vote with total surety about something so important is madness. Anyway it is irrelevant, a vote was held and an outcome happened, and for those that find it difficult to accept that people had a different view to you, well you must wrestle with your conscience and understand that morally you are wrong to fight it.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (5th Apr 2019 - 14:03:38) My experiences align with A.R.s (and I don't have a dim view of youngsters before someone says that.) I know many university aged young adults who are only just starting to take an interest in politics at 20 or 21 years of age. They freely admit that only a very few of their peers were interested at 16 or 17. I can't stand politics myself in general and certainly was too young and carefree to think much about it until I started work. I am genuinely disturbed by our current political processes around brexit though. To involve all 16 year olds in that process can't possibly be the right thing to do in my opinion. I think Hesseltine said something about the vote to leave being ignorant of the wishes of generations to come. What a ridiculous thing to say - how can we possibly know what the wishes of generations to come will be? Leaving the EU at least gives them a semblance of control over their own future, something we can't be sure about within the EU. I've considered the arguments put forward around why sovereignty doesn't matter but they simply make no sense whatsoever in my opinion. Finally, in response to AR saying the vote was held and the outcome happened - I don't think we will leave the EU now anyway. The HoP seems intent on going against the result of the referendum. Which is both sad and terrifying. Welcome to the Banana Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ;-)

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Kate (5th Apr 2019 - 14:32:15) A.R - those that disagree are “morally wrong” to disagree, your sure about that? Thanks for highlighting your IQ. You refer to democracy and then say it’s morally wrong to have a different view than the outcome. Am not sure you understand what morals or democracy is. We will have another vote, it will still be democratic, leave will lose, the country will prosper, leavers will set fire to things and the cops will lock them up.. The End

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Bernard (5th Apr 2019 - 14:32:38) Hmmm A.R. Is it morally wrong for Theresa May to bring her deal back to parliament three times because she didn't get the answer she wanted? Is it morally wrong that strike ballots have to, by law, pass a second vote to be legal. Was a second general election in two years morally wrong? I think that is rather a harsh judgement. Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn's teams are discussion a confirmatory vote this week and even the Chancellor thinks the idea has some merit. I know I'll get grief from the Brexiteers for the very thought...please don't bother, I can read it all above!

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Pete (5th Apr 2019 - 15:33:48) Morally wrong? for goodness sake you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now, are you sure you understand the concept of morality.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Regrexit (5th Apr 2019 - 15:56:26) In response to some of the above postings from today: Knowing your EU-UK ancient history is all very valuable. Aslo valuable are concerns about the very different FUTURE outside the EU. Youngsters may not know so much about the past but their future predictions can still be valid. Youngsters are naturally less interested in politics. By excluding them from voting you are only likely to exacerbate that. Yes we all accept different views (I personally do without limits but many have their limits) but the referendum is now based on old information that's misleading and lacking. Having given the 2016 result a good old bash at parliament for three years, it is now obvious that the demand the way it was conveyed - was unattainable by the leaders. The leaders are not magicians and can't maintain a pie airborne in the sky for long. What the 2016 referendum had projected towards the fan had now hit the fan, but it had always been a pile of what it was...no profoundities. 'how can we possibly know what the wishes of generations to come will be' ? How about allowing them to express just that in a vote? Seems to be elementary when you wanted your view to be taken into account... 'the cops will lock them up' ? what cops? have you seen one locally lately? what do they look like? what do they do? Ticking in boxes and filling "hate crime" forms no doubt... I am no Leaver, but I find the various wording version for a second referendum (confirmatory, people's' etc..) pointlessly tedious. Back in the old days soon after the 2016 referendum none would dare utter 'second referendum' or any alternative wording to that effect. Fast Forward to now, a second referendum is very much a viable option, just call it what it is. Brexit is tiring, unpleasant, exhausting. But whatever the results - it won't be leaving the public debate platform for decades to come. Pointless losing patience and reverting to a "just get on with it" dangerous attitude. Opportunistic politicians will clue up to this and take advantage of it and we won't like where it'll all end up. So bear with this nightmare.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (5th Apr 2019 - 16:19:54) My son and I think most of his friends, are taking great interest in what is happening to the UK. We must give them a chance to say what happens to the UK as it's their future

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - A.R (5th Apr 2019 - 16:24:44) Well there you have it Kate, Thank you for misquoting me. I wont retort with a like minded comment but re quote yours. Thanks for highlighting your IQ. Please read again. I never once said you were morally wrong to vote the way you did, I respect you decision, or to feel aggrieved or annoyed at the outcome. I said it is morally wrong to fight it. By overturning a vote this could set a precedence that could damage democracy and the country with appalling consequences. As to the rest of your comments, sometimes the idea that the words put on line are there for ever, does strike me with mirth, some people really do shoot themselves in the foot. There will be lots of quotes that will be recorded for history.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (5th Apr 2019 - 17:53:43) Regrexit. Let's be absolutely, brutally honest here. The only reason there's a sudden call for 16 year olds to now be given the vote is because Remainers hope it will swing any second referendum in their favour. Where was anyone calling for this prior to the initial referendum?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Bernard (5th Apr 2019 - 19:03:55) independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/house-of-commons-votes-against-lowering-voting-age-for-eu-referendum Didn't take much Googling. Tory majority blocked it to favour a leave vote.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (5th Apr 2019 - 19:08:27) Aidy In response to your last post, the simple reason is they could not vote. As I said in my first message about this idea, they are the generation that will have to live with this,

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (6th Apr 2019 - 13:09:44) Jacob. I get your point. And your children taking an interest in Brexit is clearly a good thing. My experience is that your children and friends are the exception though, not the rule. I'm convinced most 16 year olds are not interested enough in brexit to be given the vote though. And do you really think they have sufficient life experience - working, paying tax, owning and maintaining a car etc etc to make a fully informed decision? You may think yes but I'm afraid the reality is no.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Bernard (6th Apr 2019 - 15:10:01) I get your point Aidy, but I wonder if the oldies (and I am one) are perhaps too stuck in their ways, too conditioned to the toxic, self-serving view of the right-wing press. Perhaps a sprinkling of youthful optimism is exactly what Britain needs. It's their future, not ours, after all. We have become an embarrassment in the world over this, I'm looking to our youngsters to restore Britain's reputation.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (6th Apr 2019 - 17:01:14) Aidy, My goodness, what a dim view you have the younger generation. As i explained in a earlier post, my son is at university studying hard for an engineering degree, and is taking a great interest in what is going on within parliament (in truth you can't ignore it, as it is everywhere) I think a lot of the younger generation, know about running a car, paying tax etc. They have to make choices, otherwise they will not get on in life.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (6th Apr 2019 - 17:09:48) Sorry it's me again In the eyes of the law people aged 16 and over are classified as young adults, not children.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (6th Apr 2019 - 19:10:06) Jacob. Again, you make no sense. Apart from the fact that I most certainly do not have a dim view of the younger generation, you are the one suggesting 16 year olds should have the vote. You have to be 17 to drive a car for a start so how many 16 year olds will have experience of that? How many 16 year olds pay tax and hold down a full-time job? Especially since they legally need to stay in full time education until 18 these days. Does your son pay any tax at university? Is he 16 and at university? I don't know where to take this because your argument is so full of holes. And what is your point about 16 year olds being called young adults, how does that fit into this "discussion"?

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (6th Apr 2019 - 20:38:18) My gosh I seem to have hit a nerve. I am using my son and most of his friends as point of reference, most of them worked hard the year before they went of to university. Yes they paid taxes, yes they had to run a car to be able to get to work. I have faith in the younger generation, they are not all snowflakes.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - oldie (6th Apr 2019 - 22:23:58) Jacob you seem to be making the basic error of logic by using your own experience to extrapolate across an entire age group. In your survey of your son and his friends you have found that 16 year olds are very interested and knowledgeable about politics and (presumably) would vote to remain in the EU! Of course, as Aidy has been saying, most 16 year olds do not have a wide and broad life experience yet (it would be very sad if they did) and are probably currently more interested in err, other things, if only I could remember what! It's OK teenagers need to rebel against whatever we do and then when they get a job, a mortgage (once we leave the EU they may even be able to buy a house), all that stuff, then after 20, 30 or 40 years of catching the 7am train to work, 4 weeks off a year and seeing their savings wiped out on taxes and interest charges and nothing much to show for it let alone a pension, worried about their children's future (something I'm sure both sides agree on 100%), whilst the rich get richer and more tax free and bring in more and more desperate migrants to undercut the workers wages, they too may then decide to turn around and give the self serving politicians a right kick up the arris, and the youth of that future time will look on in amazement and wonder why they did it, totally confounded and lost for an explanation, simply does not compute in a 16 year olds mind (why should it?), just like now ha ha! Nothing really changes I guess! But give 16 year olds the vote just to swing a lost vote? Can of worms that.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - steve miller (6th Apr 2019 - 22:47:15) Well this thread has certainly generated a lot of heat and a large number of posts but, perhaps unsurprisingly, not a lot of light. My original posting was aimed at trying to find at least some sense of compromise but I suspect that this community, in the same way as our political class, has moved well beyond that point. The current situation compares to two first world war armies well dug into their trenches, occasionally going over the top but each unable to achieve a decisive victory. Almost anything could still happen as deadlines come and go. It now seems possible that we are about to get stuck in a loop where we have an ever renewing extension to the article 50 process which can only be broken by Parliament voting for a deal (and/or a referendum) which it seems determined not to do. I suppose as a committed europhile I should be pleased that we are not leaving, at least for the moment, but to be honest I find the wide divisions in our society very sad. Whatever the final outcome of this fraught process I fear that the ill feelings such as those expressed in this thread will endure for many years. A couple of days ago I did receive a response from Damian Hinds to the letter referred to in my opening post. As far as I could tell it came from him rather than a minion and was extremely courteous, certainly more so than the response I received from David Lambert! To be honest I feel quite a lot of sympathy at the moment for Damian and his fellow Cabinet members whatever their take on Brexit. They must really feel the heavy hand of history resting on their shoulders as they try to get the country through this without real and lasting damage.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (6th Apr 2019 - 23:20:03) No Jacob, I just think you're talking nonsense. Good luck.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Bernard (6th Apr 2019 - 23:22:12) Aidy, I do take your point that older people have a broader experience of the world. The problem with your argument is that there are also many, many adults who are not interested in Brexit or politics or make poor decisions generally. On your logic, we should also be excluding them from the franchise. The problem with democracy is that you can't exclude people from the vote just because they don't know much, not that I am saying that all young adults are ill-informed. I have met many pig-headed, stupid adults and I wish they didn't vote, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. If 16 & 17 year olds are allowed in one constitutional vote it has to be allowed in another; it is outrageous to pick and choose. You were wrong about demand for this before the referendum. Yes, it means that people are included who favour remain, but excluding them favoured leave. The franchise must be as broad as possible. Anything else is warping the result. That is the reality. Not that a confirmatory vote will happen. Not with this stubborn PM.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (7th Apr 2019 - 09:31:57) But Bernard, you have to draw the line somewhere. Currently it's 18, lots are suggesting 16 but who's to say 16 is right? Girls are generally believed to mature at a younger age than boys so why not 16 for girls and 18 for boys? Or 17? Or give everyone the vote from birth? Or from secondary school age?9 The only reason this ridiculous notion has come about is because people think a voting age of 16 would mean a remain vote in a further referendum. And we cannot, should not and must not have another referendum. If we did and the vote is leave again Remainers will continue to not accept it. If we vote again and the vote is remain, leavers will not accept that and will want another vote. It would be farcical and we'd be even more of a laughing stock than we currently are. I appreciate you did not get the answer you wanted and that you vehemently think leaving the EU is the wrong thing to do. But the vote took place and a statistically significant majority felt otherwise.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Jacob (7th Apr 2019 - 13:15:07) Adiy I think you are just talking nonsense. Good luck to you to

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Bernard (7th Apr 2019 - 13:27:58) Truth be told Aidy I am a bit bored of arguing this point, but I'll have one further go at trying to explain the issue here. Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere. In the Scottish Independence Referendum, David Cameron drew the line at 16. In the EU referendum two years later he drew the line at 18, Do you see that this is inconsistent? Why was 16 OK in 2014 and not OK in 2016? So, constitutionally, we now have a precedent that 16 & 17 year olds can take part in referenda, but then one party decides to exclude these people from the franchise, as that party's MP's fear a remain win. The referendum come in close to 50/50, just in favour of leave. Can you see how, to some of us, that makes the result a bit iffy? Had the EU vote been run on the same basis as the Scottish Independence vote, remain would have won, by all available evidence. Add-in unlawful spending by leave, lies told by the leave campaign, and truths told by the remain campaign that were dismissed as 'Project Fear' and you can see how this example of democracy looks decidedly dodgy. Of course, those that wanted leave will claim that the result was fine, no matter what the circumstances. But some of us are left feeling uneasy about the whole thing. Yes, people calling for 16/17yo votes want a remain result next time; leavers are hardly going to admit the vote was imperfect, because they got what they wanted. However, that doesn't change the fact that the vote was problematic and is the reason that many remainers reject the notion that we should get over it because we lost; we feel somewhat cheated. Exclude 16 year olds the vote just to swing a referendum? Can of worms that. With many more facts at our fingertips and lies now exposed, it makes absolute, logical sense to check that leaving is what the country wants now and is consistent with the process of voting in parliament and in other areas of life. If we still vote leave, May's plan, or whatever Parliament finally agree, gets implemented. Remainers will just then have to accept it.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Aidy (7th Apr 2019 - 16:46:55) Yes, Bernard, I'm bored of this too. We just go round and round in circles. I started to put together a lengthy response but I've deleted it, there's no point in wasting the words. I'll leave this with one final point - I'm sure you'll respond but I will not reply - if you genuinely believe that the leave campaign lied and the remain campaign told the truth then I think you're incredibly naive. Both campaigns stank the place out equally.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - John (7th Apr 2019 - 17:59:41) 16yr olds aren't required to swing the vote, another vote today would go the other way anyway. Plus 3 years have past, many of the older voters have passed away.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Keith (7th Apr 2019 - 18:39:24) Bernard I don't think it was a matter of choice re the Scottish referendum per se - Scotland already has a law that 16 and 17 year olds are able to vote for the Scottish parliament - the minimum voting age in public elections in Scotland is devolved to the Scottish government, so it was not David Cameron who made that choice. Scotland does have the somewhat strange scenario where someone who is 16 can vote for their representative in the Scottish Parliament but cannot vote in UK Parliamentary elections.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - Graham (7th Apr 2019 - 23:48:34) No Keith, that arrangement came in 2015 in Scotland, in local council elections, after the Scottish referendum in 2014. Voter turnout of 16 & 17 year olds was high and the decision was taken in the Scottish Parliament to allow such votes in future. Before then, in 2014, the UK Government had agreed that 16 year olds could vote in the Scottish referendum following representations from the Independence campaign. It was David Cameron's coalition Government that agreed it and his temporary Conservative majority that reversed the decision for the EU vote in 2016, against the wishes of all of the other parties.

Re: Leaving the EU - A possible different approach - wateau (9th Apr 2019 - 18:29:47) In response to all of the above, the security of this Nation requires that Scotland and Northern Ireland remain as part of the UK, otherwise we are open to any EU country looking to us as invaluable. WE WIL HAVE WAR!!!!

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