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France and the eu - RM (8th Dec 2018 - 18:18:24) Who would ever want to live in France or for that matter any eu country. Riots, low employment, economy’s up the swany and they have brass neck to dictate to us. Lets get out, deal or no deal we can tighten our belts as we did in the wars and show them how its done.

Re: France and the eu - I (8th Dec 2018 - 20:05:33) You got to be joking, this country is rapidly going down the toilet and it will only get worse. And the generation that fought in the last war are now in their 90's and their offspring (the generation along with the under 30's that voted for brexit) certainly do not have the same strength of character. Europe is going through it at the moment but there are two or three countries in the EU I would rather live than here any day of the week. Those that think we can go it alone and live in splendid isolation are in for a right shock!

Re: France and the eu - Adrian (8th Dec 2018 - 20:16:19) At last some common sense on EU. Lets get out and as was said a few years ago UP YOURS DELORS. They need us more than we need them.

Re: France and the eu - wolfie smith (8th Dec 2018 - 21:11:06) they'll be protesting like that in the UK soon i find it incredible that we haven't had civil unrest in this country a policy of austerity, a european vote that no one wanted aside from the ERG, what the poor have been through since 2010 shames us all

Re: France and the eu - John (8th Dec 2018 - 22:37:33) "They need us more than we need them" Enough of this Bull***t!!! Sure its going to hurt both sides but its DEFINITELY going to hurt us more than them. 1. The German economy is bigger than us, by a distance. 2. The french economy is nearly the same as ours 3. The Italians are not far behind. That's just 3 I have mentioned, when you add them all up the EU collectively is the worlds 2nd biggest economy without us. So stop with this stupid comment. When we voted to leave we didnt vote to turn our backs completely on trade and commerce with them. But it seems that what many of you want now. If we dont get a deal we will drop from 2nd currently to 5th biggest economy in the space of a year and many of us will suffer

Re: France and the eu - Mrs (9th Dec 2018 - 09:36:42) OMG, they need us more than we need them. Please come back into the real world. We are an Island that is going to be so Isolated from the rest of the world if we leave. We are no longer the British Empire.

Re: France and the eu - Regrexit (9th Dec 2018 - 11:54:02) Just a quick note :) RM: Which part of the UK are you from? Here in England there only seems to be budget to silence anti-brexit calls from universities, research, the industry, DUP, flying panes for medicines, agriculture, Brexit bill and much else that goes in secret. This is taxpayers' money, including Remainers grabbed money, other monies for Brexit are yet to have their origins clarified (foreign interests?). Our services (police, NHS, transport, education, environment, infrastructure etc.) are on their already bruised knees. This is not the picture of a strong economy. EU countries are also tightening up their belts, but not generally as bad as we have been doing here. We have and will have riots and unemployment in this country too. Now with the divisions and lack of public spending - the UK is a tinderbox. You've portrayed wartime lifestyle as attractive (?!?!) - perhaps only if the alternative is a civil war; both are likely brexit eventualities. Brexit in itself is a rioting revolution: demonstrations, political murder, loss of trust, leadership (some unelected) upheaval, talk of breaking the UK (Scotland, NI) etc. Many brexiteers justified their vote as an anti-establishment vote: it had only made things worse so far and will do more in future. The EU doesn't need Old Blighty to show it how it's done, so far in the Brexit process it is the other way around. So embarrassing. Adrian: Economically, the UK needs the EU more than the other way around (unless you know better than leading experts). Both need each other. The EU were ready for various shades of Brexit for months, it's the UK that is too unsure (with very good reasons to be), and dithering. The EU have been clear and consistent, the UK is free to leave according to the known rules. There is a vindictive tone to your message and those who echo it, is it worth it? Sovereignty? We get government that hides the truth from us, we get a UK future dictated by minority DUP, we get a fractured United Kingdom, government that conflicts with parliamentand the public... International Trade? See current global trade-wars, see the magnificent trade deals achieved by the EU long ago and very recently, note that any country in trade deals with the big EU market will be painfully discouraged from dealing with smaller (e.g. UK) economies. Trade deals take long time to finalise, that time costs money and jobs. They are always a compromise, always come at a cost. The last thing brexit-damaged UK will need is delayed costly trade deals. We're yet to be impressed with the appetite and viability for future UK-global trade offers. Control over our borders? The UK was negligent in controlling EU immigration, other EU countries handle EU immigration far more orderly (e.g. ID cards and compulsive registration). The out-of-control EU immigration into the UK is the UK's own choice, not an EU membership requirement. Brexit will replace EU immigration that is of comparable qualities (qualification, culture, economical background) with global immigration that is very different indeed. The UK had benefited from the EU buffering between us and global immigration. Outside the EU we will face global immigration's full ferocity head on, it would be us that will be doing the dirty work of the bad cop on our borders. Say Brexit will be good in the end. We've already lost shed loads of money and time, the optimistic forecast of Brexit benefit is decades ahead. We are here and now. Do we or don't we trust economical forecasts? Remember exiting the European Union has implication beyond trade and the economy. The UK inside the EU used to be a force against an EU army; even before Brexit is completed, EU countries are racing towards own army. Recalling history, where are we heading for? The UK's EU membership was a brief historical period that war was not on the cards. (fishing skirmishes, Gibraltar, UK bases in the EU...etc). In past British v's Mainland wars the mainland was divided, seems very different now. Tired of Brexit talk and want to Leave just because it is too protracted? The conflict over the EU membership is with us for generations to come, whether we are in or out or dithering. Let's allow the best realistically available deal (reversing Article 50), we've no face left to lose. Get used to it, Brexit: it's the future middle east "crisis". Will go on for the foreseeable future.

Re: France and the eu - Helen (9th Dec 2018 - 14:36:53) I really do not understand people who think we should leave the EU without any trade deals in place. We import at least 60 per cent of our food what is it we export that the rest of the world desperately needs? We rely on the banking industry which is decamping to Dublin or luxembourg.

Re: France and the eu - The Joy (9th Dec 2018 - 16:40:34) It will be interesting to see what the happens after Tuesdays vote? No one voted of Multiculturalism but we got it, no one voted for open borders but we got it & now when we vote for something we want they (the establishment) don't want it. Conclusion: Democracy has been an illusion & we in fact have been & are living in a totalitarian state.

Re: France and the eu - Jen (9th Dec 2018 - 17:16:37) The Joy, what "open borders" are you referring to? The only open border we have is the one that we desperately want to keep - that between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Re: France and the eu - Ian (9th Dec 2018 - 19:23:05) Dear "The Joy" Open a book or do a bit of research before embarrassing yourself, you say we are in fact living in a totalitarian state which is in actual fact a load of c**p from you; The very definition of a totalitarian state is that opposition parties are prohibited as is individual opposition to the state. Given we have many parties in opposition and everyone in this country can air their views, go to parliament & fly whatever banner of opposition they want, your talking nonsense.The only totalitarian states am aware of was Nazi Germany, North Korea and North Vietnam, am sure there are others. Whilst we are certainly a bloody marvelous embarrassment of a state now as we circle the drain but we are a very long way from a totalitarian state. This is exactly the sort of low IQ drivel & fake news that's got us into this mess in the first place.

Re: France and the eu - Boris (9th Dec 2018 - 19:28:38) What a load of old croc, we voted to leave so let's leave, the mere fact that the EU is making it so difficult should be argument enough. Why do we import so much stuff, food, electrical blah blah....I wonder ....oh yeah because the EU made it that way. Either way this site isn't the place for political propaganda.

Re: France and the eu - helen (9th Dec 2018 - 22:20:12) The pecentage diffential between those who voted leave and those who voted remain was very small. I have not heard a compelling arguement from those who voted leave, it always reverts to " who won the war". It is a nonsensical reason to vote leave, who wants to live in wartime conditions?

Re: France and the eu - Adrian (10th Dec 2018 - 02:31:00) 2 Points. First I - If there are 2 or 3 countries you would rather live than here please go ASAP and good riddance. Secondly - The fact is we had a referendum and there was a majority to leave the EU end of story. We must go. The people have clearly made their views clear - No EU Court. No free movement. No CAP. No French trawlers in UK waters. I would like a trade deal as that will benefit the UK and Europe but the above must happen. To all those remoaners - YOU LOST GET OVER IT.

Re: France and the eu - Mrs (10th Dec 2018 - 12:31:05) Adrian, We have the right to have a re vote, due to the fact that the brexit side told so so many lies, which now they are denying. Dominic Cummings who came up with slogan regarding £350m quote on the bus, has said it's a stupid idea, and many many people now feel the same. I don't want to be sold out, until at least the country has another vote.

Re: France and the eu - Regrexit (10th Dec 2018 - 15:12:23) Adrian, your two points: First. Having been let down by the referendum yet not defecting shows loyalty, and perseverance. Not a bad quality in my book. Second. The referendum was flawed in its overly-simplistic wording, even if there weren't any lies and irregularities. Background: People voted for Leaving not specified what form that'd take. Hence the nonsense of "brexit means brexit" and the failure amongst Leavers in agreeing what shade of Leaving people have voted for. Now that we have better idea of the implications, the costs, the disinformation, the risks - and no one could honestly say they knew how things would have unfolded - we are better equipped to answer another referendum that would hopefully be better worded. Turns out the referendum information and wording were - at best -obscure, and as such go against democratic principles. Nothing un-democratic in re-running a flawed vote.

Re: France and the eu - Katie (11th Dec 2018 - 13:57:20) Call the whole thing off and Dave will pay for all the money it’s cost with the profits from his after-dinner speeches. We’re all still in this together, right Dave? Dave??!

Re: France and the eu - Adrian (13th Dec 2018 - 08:10:44) To those who are asking for a second referendum where does it end. Whatever the result of a second referendum the losers will demand a third, and then a fourth etc etc. As for the lies I think we can all agree that neither side covered themselves in glory regarding the truth. This is typical EU mentality, if you have a referendum and get the wrong result have another referendum until you get the right result. This happened in France and Ireland.

Re: France and the eu - liz (13th Dec 2018 - 12:03:35) "Have another referendum until you get the right answer"? Makes sense to me. Who wants a wrong answer.

Re: France and the eu - Jack (13th Dec 2018 - 13:28:51) Adrian, you are missing the point. The People's Vote campaign are not asking to re-run the first referendum. They are asking for a public vote on the deal which has been negotiated. This is perfectly reasonable. Even the Tories insist that when trade union members vote to strike, no action is taken until there is a second vote on the deal which is negotiated with management. The ERG Group of extremists and also the PM seem to have conveniently forgotten this.The 'how many referendums do you want argument' is redundant. Imagine you and your family decided to build an extension to your house. When the estimates for the work came in they were significantly more expensive than you could afford, and the work would not result in as much space as you thought. Would you change your mind? Or would you say, no - the decision of the house is final - the family have spoken - we must continue with the extension, it is the will of the family. Would it be a betrayal of democracy to actually decide that the extension probably was not a good idea? When you apply logic to the 'no People's Vote' argument, it just does not stand up. I can't understand those that say that having a People's Vote would be undemocratic. What is more democratic than asking people what they think now?! Undemocratic would be holding a vote where electoral law was broken by the winning side, lies were openly told through the campaign, 90% of the press campaigned based on these lies and 16 & 17 year-olds were not permitted to vote, despite being allowed to do so two years earlier in the Scottish referendum (effectively disenfranchising them and artificially swinging the result towards leave-voting oldies). I suspect the anti-vote lobby simply understand that, in all recent polls, public opinion has moved, modestly, towards remaining in the EU. They are scared of losing their precious Brexit. I was disgusted with the open hypocrisy of the fanatical Tory 'leave' MPs last night, saying that Theresa May's 63% win in the confidence-vote was not enough for her to stay in her job, and I don't even trust Theresa May! If 63% success in a vote of all eligible persons is insufficient to carry the day, then how come a 52% vote share of a referendum, where some people were excluded, is fine to take us out of our relationship with our biggest trading partner and is somehow 'the will of the people'. Shameless. 52% of an out-of-date vote is 'the will of half the people two years ago.'

Re: France and the eu - Mrs (13th Dec 2018 - 13:29:34) I agree with you Liz, most people now realise that we need another vote, before we jump into the frying pan

Re: France and the eu - Jack (13th Dec 2018 - 14:04:14) Adrian, you are missing the point. The People's Vote campaign are not asking to re-run the first referendum. They are asking for a public vote on the deal which has been negotiated. This is perfectly reasonable. Even the Tories insist that when trade union members vote to strike, no action is taken until there is a second vote on the deal which is negotiated with management. The ERG Group of extremists and also the PM seem to have conveniently forgotten this.The 'how many referendums do you want argument' is redundant. Imagine you and your family decided to build an extension to your house. When the estimates for the work came in they were significantly more expensive than you could afford, and the work would not result in as much space as you thought. Would you change your mind? Or would you say, no - the decision of the house is final - the family have spoken - we must continue with the extension, it is the will of the family. Would it be a betrayal of democracy to actually decide that the extension probably was not a good idea? When you apply logic to the 'no People's Vote' argument, it just does not stand up. I can't understand those that say that having a People's Vote would be undemocratic. What is more democratic than asking people what they think now?! Undemocratic would be holding a vote where electoral law was broken by the winning side, lies were openly told through the campaign, 90% of the press campaigned based on these lies and 16 & 17 year-olds were not permitted to vote, despite being allowed to do so two years earlier in the Scottish referendum (effectively disenfranchising them and artificially swinging the result towards leave-voting oldies). I suspect the anti-vote lobby simply understand that, in all recent polls, public opinion has moved, modestly, towards remaining in the EU. They are scared of losing their precious Brexit. I was disgusted with the open hypocrisy of the fanatical Tory 'leave' MPs last night, saying that Theresa May's 63% win in the confidence-vote was not enough for her to stay in her job, and I don't even trust Theresa May! If 63% success in a vote of all eligible persons is insufficient to carry the day, then how come a 52% vote share of a referendum, where some people were excluded, is fine to take us out of our relationship with our biggest trading partner and is somehow 'the will of the people'. Shameless. 52% of an out-of-date vote is 'the will of half the people two years ago.'

Re: France and the eu - Jack (13th Dec 2018 - 18:52:43) I seem to be repeating myself...

Re: France and the eu - The Joy (13th Dec 2018 - 21:37:07) Amazing the amount of people thinking voting again is democracy? The leave vote was to leave the Eu 100%, it’s that simple. What’s hard to understand? I cannot remember anything on the ballot paper saying soft brexit, hard brexit, renegotiating terms. You could see two years ago it was going to be crap deal or stay as it went against MPs wishes. If remain won would we be talking about a soft remain or hard remain? The welsh assembly vote in 1997 was even closer than the brexit vote, nobody battered a eye lid. If a referendum happens it should only be on the basis of the exit from the EU, not remain as that ship sailed two years ago.

Re: France and the eu - Jack (13th Dec 2018 - 23:20:40) The Joy I'm surprised that you are amazed. Voting is the very definition of democracy. Every five years we look at the record of the government and decide if we still want them. The next referendum will be us looking at what has been done since June 2016 and deciding whether we still want that. It is un-democratic to deny people the chance to vote on whether we want to go through with a deal that was not clear or understood in 2016. If the people still want to leave then we'll leave. If the country look at the terrible toll Brexit will take on our economy, public services and international standing then we will stay. Leavers are terrified of another vote. The lies of last time just won't wash this time around. We know there will be no Brexit dividend. We know international businesses are moving out of the UK. We know that we could have had blue passports all along....

Re: France and the eu - J (14th Dec 2018 - 10:52:33) ...we know that we could have put controls on EU migration but our government chose not to. I'm still yet to hear one benefit from leaving.

Re: France and the eu - ian (14th Dec 2018 - 12:19:14) It seems to me that the in the middle ground majority are now stuck between two sets of bullies. The leave brigade know that their majority had only the smallest of margins and are now trying to intimidate and bully us out of Europe, regardless of what we now know.And on the other hand the EU machine is using our disarray to give us a good kicking whilst we are on the ropes. Both sides should be ashamed of themselves. The EU establishment is understandably not giving ground but the Brexit mob know they no longer TRULY represent the views of the population so are resorting to bully boy tactics. The whole thing is a mess and I blame Cameron. The referendum was ill organised and flawed. There should have been a requirement for a clear majority (say 60%) so the winning side had a clear mandate and also a mechanism should have been established in the event the leave vote winning so the electorate had the final say on the type of exit we committed to.

Re: France and the eu - John (14th Dec 2018 - 17:03:36) Everyone's entitled to change their minds, look at Theresa, she was only voted in as leader after the referendum by the Tory's and now whats happened? The Tory's have changed their mind about her... whats good enough for the party in power to change their minds is good enough for us. Nothing good has happened, nothing at all, and its not looking like its going to improve, even the EU have had enough of us, it was not the EU whom voted to leave, the EU are now sick of us, surprised they do not just tell us to get stuffed, see you later and all the best, you made your own bed so go and lie in it.

Re: France and the eu - The Joy (14th Dec 2018 - 20:30:32) If you could show some evidence of this intimidate and bully us out of Europe material, I would love to look into it. Please don't mention a red bus as anyone with half a brain knew that was just a idea of where the money could be better spent. I think leave and remain would both agree that would be a nice injection into the Nhs.

Re: France and the eu - The Joy (14th Dec 2018 - 21:05:07) Just a quick watch to see the other side of the coin if your a remainer. I doubt many of you will get to the end without exploding. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pat+condell+brexit

Re: France and the eu - Jack (14th Dec 2018 - 23:25:51) Wow The Joy. I just watched your link. What a load of deranged claptrap. Conspiracy theory rubbish. I think many leavers were persuaded by the lies of the campaign. Why should we ignore the bus? Is it Ok to lie in your version of democracy The Joy? What about it being 'the easiest deal in the world to negotiate' as Liam Fox told us, The Joy. Should we ignore that too? These lies are unravelling in front of us.

Re: France and the eu - Amy (15th Dec 2018 - 09:19:00) The Joy - are you aware that the money ‘saved’ (there won’t be any) won’t go anywhere near the NHS? The bus was a total lie which the leave campaign have admitted. You think that’s ok? That they made up a complete lie to get people to vote? Adrian - could you please stop with the very childish “you lost, get over it” mantra. It’s juvenile and petty. If you provide evidence backed arguments people might take you more seriously.

Re: France and the eu - Dave (15th Dec 2018 - 09:22:11) They will vigorously deny, but from what I can observe and have experienced in conversation, the majority of Brexiteers are not motivated by economics or politics but by racism. The line has been crossed some time ago between love of our country, culture and way of life and extreme nationalism and hostility to foreigners which in no way is patriotic

Re: France and the eu - The Joy (15th Dec 2018 - 09:42:14) Well Jack I think you may have confirmed the video link by once again engaging with a differing opinion by claiming it's deranged claptrap, conspiracy theory rubbish. Congratulations just made the points on the link more accurate without even realising. If you think leavers were persuaded by lies and not remain voters then you better off keeping your blinkers on. 1. Eu Army? 2. Immediate recession after brexit vote 2016? 3. The punishment budget 4. David Cameron would stay on as PM 5. Families would be £4,300 worse off if we voted to leave? 6. Brexit will destroy Western civilization 7. Peace at risk? 8. Britain would be at 'the back of the queue' for a US trade deal? 9. The Scots would vote to leave UK? 10. Troubles again in Northern Ireland (2016)? etc etc etc oh nearly forgot 11. How Brexit will kill the sandwich? Two way traffic

Re: France and the eu - Jack (15th Dec 2018 - 10:06:41) The Joy, You appear to have articulated the case that the 2016 referendum was a farce involving lies all round. Quite right. A new referendum, this time based on sound reasoning and facts, makes absolute sense. I do think we need this People's Vote, particularly given the impasse in parliament, although I do accept that it won't do much to diffuse tensions in this country. Even Farage seems to accept that a referendum is likely and is ramping-up the 'betrayal' rhetoric.

Re: France and the eu - Adrian (15th Dec 2018 - 11:50:07) Amy My comment about you lost get over it is not a mantra its a FACT. As for lies there was a lot of mis-information or lies if you prefer from BOTH sides. I don't know how you can say there won't any money when we leave, we currently pay many millions of pounds more into the EU than we receive, now where that money goes is up for debate but the money will be available. I think there will be another referendum I just hope the option to remain in EU is not on the form as that ship has sailed and we made the decision. Perhaps the question should be left at Mays deal or no deal.

Re: France and the eu - J (15th Dec 2018 - 14:35:41) 1. EU Army - an idea floated by Macron and backed by Merkel. It's more the idea of closer collaboration at the EU level rather than NATO and not about combining sovereign armies. Here's a handy fact check article: https://www.theweek.co.uk/98495/fact-check-does-the-eu-want-a-european-super-army 2. Recession. It's a fact that the pound lost a great deal of it's value in the immediate aftermath of the vote. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36611512 3. Punishment budget - not sure what you mean? 4. Yep a lie (or at least a change in plan).Not impressed by his weasel actions when he caused the problem in the first place. 5. Who knows? Depends what happens after March I guess? plenty of financial estimates indicate various outcomes, many include being worse off (but perhaps not by that much?) 6. Not heard this one - sounds a bit far fetched 7. Again, I don't know. https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/05/how-valid-claim-eu-has-delivered-peace-europe 8. Who knows - but it can take years to work out trade deals! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-trade-deals-customs-partnership-eu-impact-theresa-may-plan-a8332411.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38639638 9.They might - they were very much pro-Remain on the whole so they could well go for another independence referendum. 10. Again, who knows. I don't think the border problems between NI and the republic are an easy issue to fix. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-good-friday-agreement-northern-ireland-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html 11. Not heard this, but interesting... https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-will-kill-the-sandwich/

Re: France and the eu - J (15th Dec 2018 - 15:07:41) By the way, I don't think many (if any) remain voters believe the EU is perfect or that we should further integrate etc. It's just that many believe that we're better off within the EU and shaping it's future rather than being on the outside and having no say.

Re: France and the eu - John mullan (15th Dec 2018 - 17:41:11) Why are any of you reading or reacting to posts from people whom are too scared to use a real name, eg “The Joy” this person is probably just a troll attempting to flame this post up then sitting back and laughing. Come on people, anyone not prepared to identify themselves when they define such strong views are pathetic and can safely be ignored.

Re: France and the eu - The Joy (16th Dec 2018 - 12:09:04) Hello John It’s safe to say that I won’t use my name as I run a business and wouldn’t want it damaged by the accusations that come with being a leave voter. To want to ignore someone’s opinion which was one the majority of the referendums, could be seen as unwise as it was the largest voters turnout which engaged the country. Maybe macron had the same idea of just ignoring people that went well. If we do have a second referendum which it looks like the establishment want, then its down to the options. The remain option shouldn’t be there in my opinion as that vote happened in 2016. This should be just on how the exit takes place. And John the only thing I may laugh at is the amount of people who think we can change the Eu from being inside the Eu. The amount of vetoes we have lost is crazy and the times PMS have gone and come back with nothing makes I clear they just want money.

Re: France and the eu - Jack (16th Dec 2018 - 12:26:03) Adrian, This, from the Pro-Brexit Daily Express on 14th November: "Brexit is costing the UK £500 million a week - or £26 billion per annum, according to research by the Centre for European Reform. The UK economy is 2.5 percent smaller than it would be if the UK had voted to remain in the European Union, the thinktank said. The cost of Brexit is growing, despite Brexiteers promising a dividend of £350m a week for leaving the EU - a campaign promise the Leave side famously declared on a Vote Leave bus. The analysis found the UK’s deficit would largely have been eliminated in the 2018-19 financial year if Britain had voted to Remain." https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1045243/Brexit-cost-how-much-has-brexit-cost-uk-june-2018-500-million-pounds-a-week

Re: France and the eu - The Joy (16th Dec 2018 - 13:50:17) I’m not a Russian before anyone chucks that about 😆

Re: France and the eu - Ian (16th Dec 2018 - 20:19:54) "The Joy" underlined his/her lies by saying they run a business yet still supports leave.... somehow those two dont match. The suspicions of that other guy is probably spot on. I dont know why anyone is keen to hide who they really are regardless of what you voted, if you believe in something to this degree you should standby it, its not like you committed a crime, therefore your just bulls***ing on here to wind people up

Re: France and the eu - Jeannie (16th Dec 2018 - 21:14:26) An old poem for Brexit. Worth remembering where it started. Won't you join our Common Market?’ said the spider to the fly, ‘It really is a winner and the cost is not too high’ ‘I know De Gaulle said ’’ Non’’, but he hadn’t got a clue, ‘We want you in, my friends and I, for we have plans for you. ‘You’ll have to pay a little more than we do, just for now, ‘As Herr Kohl said, and I agree, we need a new milch cow, ‘It’s just a continental term, believe me, mon ami, ‘Like ‘’Vive la France’’ or ‘’Mad Anglais’’ or even ‘’E.E.C.’’ As to the rules, don’t worry friend, there’s really but a few ‘You’ll find that we ignore them - but they all apply to you. ‘Give and share between us, that’s what it’s all about, ‘You do all the giving, and we all share it out. ‘It’s very British, is it not, to help a friend in need? ‘You’ve done it twice in two World Wars, a fact we must concede, ‘So climb aboard the Market Train, don’t sit there on the side, ‘Your continental cousins want to take you for a ride’

Re: France and the eu - J (17th Dec 2018 - 11:24:01) I suggest people moaning about migrants actually avail themselves of the facts: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45565124 When they're paying more into our tax system than they use then they're helping pay for your healthcare etc. Surely that's a great thing!? We may save on not paying into the EU but what will we loose out on with less (or at the very least less of an increase in) people paying into the UK tax system? Not to mention the possibilities of us individually having to pay out more for our holidays (insurance, ETIAS etc.), paying more customs duties etc.

Re: France and the eu - Penny (17th Dec 2018 - 14:05:30) To mark the end of David Dimbleby's time chairing Question Time, BBC Parliament broadcast a classic edition from the archive yesterday. In March 1997, David Dimbleby presented an edition of the programme from Birmingham with panellists Tony Benn, Frederick Forsyth, Edward Heath and Liz Lynne. First shown on BBC One on 13 March 1997. Worth downloading and watching on IPlayer - Frederick Forsyth spoke with such clarity and common sense and it showed up Edward Heath who got us into the Common Market as it was then, as the windbag he was. True when we joined the Common Market it was compiled of only 7 member states and there was no talk of federal armies. The free movement between Common Market Countries was for labour not people and the Common Market had not morphed into the unaccountable and undemocratic gravy train it now is and then we signed the Maastritch Treaty!! Frederick Forsyth could see what was going to happen - why didn't the politicians? We should never, never have joined - so if anyone is to blame it is Edward Heath.

Re: France and the eu - Al (17th Dec 2018 - 14:13:55) If we had a proper immigration policy then we wouldn't be in this mess, no vote wouldn't have happened. As for now well the no vote got us all in this hole so you can blame it on yourselves.

Re: France and the eu - Penny (17th Dec 2018 - 16:42:52) Al, what do you mean when you say a "proper immigration policy"? When should a "proper immigration policy" have been enforced? Should it have been In 1973 when we first joined the then Common Market, in 1975 when we had the first referendum on 5 June, in 1992 when we signed the Maastritch Treaty or in 2016 when the second referendum was held? J,I am not saying that immigration per se is bad - the National Health to name but one organisation could not survive without immigrants. The reason that people voted to leave was about the sovereignty of our country, having control over immigration, not stopping it, having control over our laws and borders as happens in most countries outside the EU. Try emigrating to America, Australia, Canada, China to name a few without a job!

Re: France and the eu - steve miller (17th Dec 2018 - 20:38:42) Lets imagine a parallel universe where the UK has never joined their equivalent of the European Union. For many years a smallish but vocal group (perhaps led by someone called Ken) has been agitating for us to finally join this group of nation states. The Prime Minister at the time was not particularly keen but was eventually persuaded for internal party reasons to allow a public vote on the matter. During the campaign Ken and his cohort were perhaps guilty of a little exaggeration about the manifold benefits that would flow from our membership and despite stout opposition from the PM the people eventually voted narrowly in favour of the principle that we would join the club. The PM resigned in a huff and went off to work on his memoirs! A new PM was eventually appointed by the majority party (lets call her Andrea). Andrea was originally opposed to the whole idea of joining but promised to respect the result and to negotiate a deal at least as good as that promised by Ken and his friends. The negotiations for the terms our accession were complex and very drawn out with our prospective partners perhaps not quite as enthusiastic about welcoming us on board as Ken and others had suggested during the campaign. Eventually Andrea secured a deal but one which to many appeared very unattractive, not least because it handed Gibralter to Spain and obliged the UK to hold a vote in Northern Ireland on reuinification with the Irish Republic. The proposed deal, perhaps unsurprisingly, was not universally welcomed and those on the losing side of the referendum agitated for another vote now that the actual implications of accession had become clearer. The PM was however adamant that the people had made their wishes clear in the original vote and that any suggestion that they should be given a chance to express second thoughts would be undemocratic! She did however promise to go back and ask (beg) the Parallel Universe EU equivalent to drop their Irish demands but non-the-less insisted that we would join the organisation on the designated date irrespective of the outcome of her efforts. Strangely I cannot see how the story might go from there. Perhaps others might like to finish it for me?

Re: France and the eu - J (18th Dec 2018 - 08:55:38) We could have had control over immigration from the EU, but our government chose not to implement it... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

Re: France and the eu - Jeannie (18th Dec 2018 - 09:36:33) Typical Guardian rubbish

Re: France and the eu - J (18th Dec 2018 - 11:51:40) What a mature response to the debate! How about actually reading the source document which is linked to? DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF In particular: (9) Union citizens should have the right of residence in the host Member State for a period not exceeding three months without being subject to any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport, without prejudice to a more favourable treatment applicable to job-seekers as recognised by the case-law of the Court of Justice. (10) Persons exercising their right of residence should not, however, become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during an initial period of residence. Therefore, the right of residence for Union citizens and their family members for periods in excess of three months should be subject to conditions. (12) For periods of residence of longer than three months, Member States should have the possibility to require Union citizens to register with the competent authorities in the place of residence, attested by a registration certificate issued to that effect. (16) As long as the beneficiaries of the right of residence do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State they should not be expelled. Therefore, an expulsion measure should not be the automatic consequence of recourse to the social assistance system. The host Member State should examine whether it is a case of temporary difficulties and take into account the duration of residence, the personal circumstances and the amount of aid granted in order to consider whether the beneficiary has become an unreasonable burden on its social assistance system and to proceed to his expulsion. In no case should an expulsion measure be adopted against workers, self-employed persons or job-seekers as defined by the Court of Justice save on grounds of public policy or public security. (21) However, it should be left to the host Member State to decide whether it will grant social assistance during the first three months of residence, or for a longer period in the case of job-seekers, to Union citizens other than those who are workers or self-employed persons or who retain that status or their family members, or maintenance assistance for studies, including vocational training, prior to acquisition of the right of permanent residence, to these same persons. (22) The Treaty allows restrictions to be placed on the right of free movement and residence on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. [...] UK Gov does not appear to enforce or police the right to remain for longer than three months or enforce any restrictions.

Re: France and the eu - IS (18th Dec 2018 - 12:36:38) This thread unfortunately highlights the complete and utter ignorance the majority from both sides has on this topic. This issue has become a very poor advert for the intellectual level of the British public. No wonder the world is laughing at us

Re: France and the eu - Jack (18th Dec 2018 - 13:01:42) The Guardian is Britain's most trusted newspaper, according to an independent US study: http://www.pewglobal.org/fact-sheet/news-media-and-political-attitudes-in-the-united-kingdom/. It is the most trusted news outlet, after the BBC, ITV and Sky, who are legally obliged to be impartial. What do you read Jeannie?

Re: France and the eu - Jeannie (18th Dec 2018 - 15:09:01) The Telegraph

Re: France and the eu - Fiona (18th Dec 2018 - 23:45:11) I think you find that's the "Tory graph"

Re: France and the eu - Jack (18th Dec 2018 - 23:50:23) I'm not surprised Jeannie. I might instead argue that the Torygraph is typical right-wing rubbish, but I won't stoop to that level. The Telegraph has a very pro-Brexit stand and is mainly read by the over 60s, The Guardian's editorial position is that Brexit will be bad for the country and has a younger demographic. That doesn't make either of them 'rubbish'. The Telegraph outsells The Guardian but the latter has one of the most viewed news websites in the world. The other reason that your 'Typical Guardian rubbish' outburst irked me was that the article J linked-to was not written by a Guardian staffer, but by a cross-bench peer of the realm.

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