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Local Talkback
Talkback is for the residents and businesses in Liphook to voice their views and opinions about local issues and events.

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Affordable Housing in Liphook
- oldie (29th Sep 2017 17:09:20)

Hi,

Does anybody know what percentage of new housing actually built and sold in Liphook is 'affordable' and what does affordable actually mean in reality (I know policy blurb states it must be affordable to the average buyer), but does that include shared ownership (ie buy half and rent the other half), can a buyer of affordable housing be an investor etc.

I'm wondering if anybody has professional insight, or personal experience of looking for affordable homes and what their experience is etc. I don't have any particular angle (other than as a concerned resident I think we ought to know) but mainly because I was reading the following BBC report today, apparently builders can promise a percentage of affordable housing at planning and then not actually build them, claiming 'affordability issues' which is a recognised loophole, the BBC found in London 50% of housing was promised to be affordable, only 15% was ever delivered, the builders declared 'affordability concerns' and the councils were stuck. According to Auntie, this could be going on all over the country because government policy says prohibitive cost of providing infrastructure or amenities or affordable housing mustn't stop house building going ahead and if so the builders can't be held to those promises. Now I never knew that! So it made me wonder if we're getting what was promised here.

bbc.co.uk/news/...

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Anon (29th Sep 2017 17:32:24)

At Silent Garden 128 properties in total with 65 for affordable/housing association.

Maple Park was about 30% I think

New Wimpey Estate off Longmoor Road could be up to 40%

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- lucy (9th Oct 2017 13:42:34)

A buyer of affordable housing cannot be an investor. I also believe included in the % of affordable housing, it includes council houses as well as part rent part buy.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Adrian (11th Oct 2017 17:01:25)

If it helps the affordable housing in Bordon costs 300,000, I don't know who calls that affordable, perhaps if you had a Jeremy corbyn money tree it would be affordable.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Bob (11th Oct 2017 23:24:21)

If they sell it for 300,000 then the house is affordable by the person that bought it

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Ian (12th Oct 2017 08:10:26)

If Corbyn and his Marxist buddies had their way no-one would own a property, we would all be in state housing blocks with only the Comrades requisitioning the best housing for politburo members. UP THE WORKERS, equality for everyone (although don't forget some are more equal than others!)

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Ginny Stacpoole (12th Oct 2017 16:09:07)

Well said...reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator at the same time as destroying aspiration...the reason for getting up every day and doing your best and enjoying the praise received.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- wolfie smith (12th Oct 2017 20:41:44)

i'm not a massive fan of corbyn but i vote labour

at your tory general election in june corbyn said the younger generation will be the first generation in history to be worse off than their parents and grandparents

how can that be right?

we have a housing crisis right now

we need to build houses and drive down the cost of buying property

supply needs to match demand

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Katie (15th Oct 2017 11:00:21)

The growing inequality in this country is an absolute disgrace and completely unsustainable.
Trickle down economics is a myth and wealth hoarding will ultimately do no favours to our ageing population particularly post Brexit.
Good luck finding carers or any other kind of social care because the foreign work force will have gone home and our own youth will be seeking opportunity in other countries.
You cannot shut entire generations out of the housing market, saddle them with huge amounts of university debt and the responsibility of paying for your social care & expect them to have aspirations in this country.
Personally, I'll be helping them pack!

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Bob (16th Oct 2017 10:28:04)

Katie, Actually inequality in this country is falling see

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/...

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Katie (16th Oct 2017 11:46:37)

Statistics are great, aren't they?

Inequality has fallen from it's height in 2007/8 during the financial crisis because incomes have declined among the highest earners in finance and insurance industries - sectors hit hardest by the crisis.

This obviously narrows the gap between rich and poor, however if you were once earning 4m per year and now earn 2m you are still extremely well paid.

What effect does that have on people who are on the lowest wages? Their living standards haven't improved. They are still struggling to make ends meet. They are still forced to use food banks and pay day loans. I am talking about people in full time employment, some of whom work for our emergency services, some are teachers. Is that acceptable?

You can argue that the increased minimum wage and the fact that more people are in employment has narrowed the equality gap but the reality is that the cost of living has risen while wages stagnate and the amount of people living in absolute poverty and unable to meet basic needs hasn't decreased.

The BBC also reported this morning on a huge increase in credit debt among young people who are using the money to buy food and pay their rent rather than on anything frivolous.

As I said before, this is unsustainable and it might not affect you at the moment but at some point in the near future the effects of this will be felt by everyone.

Unless, you happen to own a super yacht and bank in Panama. In which case, I hope your boat sinks, you tax avoiding scumbag!

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Ian (16th Oct 2017 14:17:50)

Aaha Katie, the politics of envy! Didn't work in the 70's not going to work now.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Bob (16th Oct 2017 15:26:26)

Katie, I'm glad to see that you accept we live in a more equal society than we did 10 years ago.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Penny (16th Oct 2017 15:32:59)

Phrases like "people living in absolute poverty " when applied to the UK just demonstrate how people is this country have absolutely no idea what "absolute poverty" means. Somalia and Ethiopia spring to mind and that is just two.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Katie (16th Oct 2017 16:01:25)

Please explain the politics of envy to me?

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- helen (16th Oct 2017 17:39:07)

I do not think there is an easy answer to the cost of housing these days, the housing associations are doing their best but have to rely on a partnership with developers as there is no money from central or local government to build council houses. Our population has risen by over 10 million people since I was born, so obviously what worked once is not working now. In most other countries unless one inherits a house the norm is to rent property. It is our desperation not to be left off of the
housing ladder and to make money on it which makes it difficult for people to be content with renting property.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Jack (16th Oct 2017 17:58:44)

I don't think Katie is being unreasonable. I'm not on the far left, I am, what used to be described until the last few years, as being in the centre. The points she has raised seem quite reasonable to me. There is a lot of talk of how previous generations got stuck in and made their own luck, pleasure from doing a good job etc. but it seems people fail to mention that the cost of a house was much more affordable then (ONS Housing Affordability Study 2016 - median house prices up 259% between 1997 and 2016, average wages up 68% over the same period - a house is now nearly 8 times an average salary). Add to that abundant social housing, free university education, low cost school meals, final salary pension schemes, mortgage tax relief, a well funded health service, untaxed company cars, high annuity rates and a relatively healthy economy over the last twenty-five years fuelled, in part, by unfettered access to the Single Market, and it seems fairly obvious to me that the 'millennials' (of which I am not!) have a point. In my experience of young people now they are no more lazy or entitled than they were in the past. There is inequality of opportunity if you saddle people with debt before they even start - previous generations in modern times were not in that position. Katie's point about paying for old age care is also very relevant - as the proportion of our population who are elderly increases exponentially, the bill for their care will fall to today's young - who may find they cannot afford to retire themselves and certainly not before they are 70.

I think the belittling with soundbites, by those on the hard right, of what were, until very recently, considered reasonable and centrist views is unfortunate and does not appear to have led to better decision making in this country. With some exceptions, we used to conduct our politics in the UK with respect and an understanding that views different to our own might still have some value (or at least be important to others). By debating these differences and reaching conclusions, things got done and extreme right and left views were moderated. Politicians used to strive for the 'centre-ground', because most voters were pragmatic and that was where successful economies flourished. It seems only Britain and the US (of Western democracies) have gone down this very polarised path, so perhaps we can be optimistic that things will change.

Still, what do I know. I just failed the security question before posting this! Perhaps the education system is better now.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Katie (16th Oct 2017 21:54:11)

Penny, 'absolute poverty' is a phrase used by economists to describe a situation in which a person doesn't have income enough to meet one or more basic needs - food, shelter etc. for an extended period of time.

Sadly, this does occur even in our very wealthy country.

Thank you for your reply, Jack. I wouldn't consider myself to be far left either. I come from a privileged background and am well beyond being a millennial but I firmly believe we are heading for disaster if we don't start putting society before profit.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Penny (17th Oct 2017 16:11:56)

Katie, My son has worked in third world countries including Somalia so please read the following taking note particularly of the penultimate paragraph - the politicians' and economists' definition of absolute poverty is inaccurate:

Absolute poverty
Clearly, where both absolute and relative poverty are prevalent, it is absolute poverty which is (by far) the more serious issue. This is the case in much of the third world, where the focus is therefore on fixed income thresholds (typically $1 or $2 a day, on the grounds that this is the minimum needed for mere survival). But in a UK setting, such thresholds have no import: no one in the UK lives on incomes anywhere near this low.
So, logically, either one concludes that there is no absolute poverty in the UK or that a much higher threshold of absolute poverty than $1 or $2 per day should be used.
The view that there is no absolute poverty in the UK is a perfectly valid position to take.
The view that there should be an absolute poverty threshold but that it should be much higher than $1 or $2 per day begs the question about how such a threshold should be defined and on what basis.
In the UK, the main efforts to define such thresholds have been undertaken under the general heading of 'minimum income standards', which basically estimate the level of income required to purchase a given basket of goods and services. But the key point about such initiatives is that the basket of goods and services is defined according to the norms of the day and, as such, are inherently relative rather than absolute in nature. So, for example, there would be many items in the 'today's basket' that would not have been in the basket 50 years ago. In other words, 'minimum income standards' relate to relative poverty rather than to absolute poverty.
In recent years, the Government has begun to describe households with less than half 1 the average 1997 household income (after adjusting for inflation) as being in 'absolute poverty'. This is, however, purely a political device - the only relevance of 1997 is that it is when the current Government came into power. 2 That is not to say that the statistic is unimportant, simply that it should not be described as 'absolute poverty'.
To summarise: there is no obvious way of defining an absolute poverty threshold except the $1 or $2 a day thresholds defined on the grounds that this is the minimum needed for mere survival. But in a UK setting, such thresholds have no import: no one in the UK lives on incomes anywhere near this low.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Mark (17th Oct 2017 16:41:32)

Well the very last line sums it up as all inaccurate, and just another opinion, that is out of date, and not in the real world,on your door step;

'no one in the UK lives on incomes anywhere near this low'

of course they do, have you really not taken on board all those who are homeless ?

That equates to zero income .....as no benefits are provided for those without an address.

Perhaps check the current stats before preaching from on high.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Katie (17th Oct 2017 17:47:59)

Penny, I am in no way dismissing the plight of people living in poverty in other countries, but this thread is specifically about affordable housing in the UK.

Are you saying that people who can't afford to buy food and rent somewhere to live in this country, despite often being in employment, don't exist or that they don't have any right to complain because there are other people worse off in the world?


Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Helen (17th Oct 2017 19:21:04)

I think Penny is just saying that perhaps unless one has
seen the dreadful conditions in which some people live in
3rd world countries one should not use being unable to
get on the housing ladder as a definition of poverty. I think maybe our expectations that each generation will
be better off than the last needs adjusting.

Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- Katie (17th Oct 2017 20:16:55)

Helen, nowhere have I equated not being able to get on the housing ladder with living in poverty.


Re: Affordable Housing in Liphook
- oldie (18th Oct 2017 11:39:33)

It's interesting to hear people's opinions on the housing crisis and how we perceive it depending on our political/ethical points of view. I agree with people like Wolfie and Kate that Britain is becoming less and less equal as we embrace ever greater rampant capitalism where for example those at the top pay little or no tax (the new aristocracy) but we must be grateful to them for whatever trickles down through the classes.

Surely poverty can be relative too? So if you earn a dollar a day and a house costs 100 dollars and you can afford one, are you better or worse off than someone who earns 100 dollars a day but a house costs 100,000 dollars and you can't afford it?

We can all understand absolute poverty in terms of hunger that happens mainly in 3rd world countries (but not that long ago it was here too, is returning and will be seen more), but I agree with some other posters on here as inequality grows and people fall further and further behind, the rich horde vast wealth, are you any better off being homeless in 'rich' Britain where the average property is nearly 300,000 (nearer 1,000,000 in London), or living in a 100 dollar house amongst a community who all live in 100 dollar houses even if we tend to look down on them and their lifestyles and think 'how inadequate'? I wonder.

Or maybe people like Ian are right and the capitalist model must prevail as the concept of competition, personal gain, profit, hording, one up-manship is just too ingrained in our human nature, and communism was after all just a flawed idealistic utopia where the poor misplaced their trust in a different set of oligarchs naively believing that they would share equally.

Who knows, but I think we shouldn't forget that it was as recently as the 19th century (well recent for me anyway) that Marxism, the unions and the Labour movement arose as a response/antidote to the revulsion of increasing and absolute poverty, lack of affordable housing, inequality resulting from rapid population growth and the greed and excess of capitalism which resulted in social upheaval and wars, because we never seem to learn!

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