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Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Liphook Parent (23rd Jul 2017 - 15:24:33) I'd like to remind drivers that there are zebra crossings on the road into and out of Sainsbury's so slowing down and being prepared to stop for pedestrians would be appreciated by those of us trying to cross, particularly with little ones in prams or buggies. It's probably an even better idea to do this if you are driving an identifiable company vehicle (M J Wannerton Plastering) rather than speeding through with no regard.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Richard (23rd Jul 2017 - 19:56:22) I am not sure the Sainsbury crossings are, in the strict legal sense, pedestrian crossings, as I think they lack some road markings and belisha beacons. That puts them into the realm of "Courtesy crossings". Now most people will indeed stop, and it is nice and courteous of them to do so, a driver does not have an obligation to stop on them. I guess the best advice is when using them, be prepared for the driver not to stop...so proceed with caution. When I use similar crossings, I like to ensure the driver has seen me, and is stopping, prior to crossing.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Another concerned resident (23rd Jul 2017 - 22:17:00) Whilst it may be true that they aren't law enforced crossings, sadly people drive far too quickly into and out of Sainsbury's with no regard for pedestrians. I've been half way across the road before and had people emergency stopping their cars and also experienced being swerved around by a car going so fast they couldn't stop. Agreed, pedestrians should always look and check but perhaps cars shouldn't be travelling with such speed and disregard for their surroundings. Also a quick google shows this company have been involved in another road issue which suggests they are very inconsiderate drivers and perhaps OP was doing all the right things!

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Claire (23rd Jul 2017 - 22:25:28) Surely these are marked zebra crossings? Do Pedestrians not have priority here in any case? Text detailed below from the Highway Code: 195 Zebra crossings. As you approach a zebra crossing look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto a crossing allow more time for stopping on wet or icy roads do not wave or use your horn to invite pedestrians across; this could be dangerous if another vehicle is approaching be aware of pedestrians approaching from the side of the crossing. A zebra crossing with a central island is two separate crossings (see pictures in Crossings (18 to 30)). Law ZPPPCRGD reg 25 As a mum of a toddler, and a driver, I am horrified by the number of drivers who speed through these crossings simply not looking to see if there might be someone waiting to cross. Surely we can all take a bit more care of each other?

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Liphook Parent (23rd Jul 2017 - 23:21:22) We absolutely never assume that a driver will stop and always wait to see that they are going to before attempting to cross! This person made no attempt to even acknowledge the existence of the crossing. I also found their other incident online too! What a lovely company...

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - R (24th Jul 2017 - 09:04:39) The markings in the Sainsbury's car park are NOT official Zebra crossings, so the driver was under no obligation to stop. However, the driver was obligated to drive with due care and attention. Below is a citation from an online legal firm regarding this very issue of walkways in supermarket car park areas:- "In short, you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention as this will be a public road for these purposes. But the zebra crossing is not properly authorised and so cannot give rise to a prosecution for failing to comply with it."

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - helen (24th Jul 2017 - 15:23:35) This land is not adopted by Hampshire Highways so strictly speaking not Highways legally accountable crossings.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Liphook Parent (24th Jul 2017 - 20:20:20) When I posted originally I wasn't concerned about any legalities or whether drivers are breaking the law if they don't stop, more worried about the fact that drivers are ignoring a marked zebra crossing where it is possible that pedestrians may be crossing. In particular youngsters might not pay enough attention to the road before doing so - as often seen in the Square and reported here previously! Besides it's just common courtesy to allow people to cross!

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - R (25th Jul 2017 - 08:55:28) @ Liphook Parent The driver of that van didn't ignore a "marked zebra crossing"... because those markings are NOT a zebra crossing. The van driver you indirectly 'named and shamed' did nothing wrong by not stopping to let you and your children cross. Unlike an official zebra crossing, there is no right of way for pedestrians at these crossing points. Therefore, the van driver was under no obligation to stop, or even consider what is assumed to be a 'common courtesy'. Here is a news article that might help you and your family keep safe in future when using crossings like these:- www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/...

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Amy (25th Jul 2017 - 09:50:15) R, I think you are entirely missing the point here. It's not to do with legality. It's to do with the way people drive. If you search for the 'named and shamed' you will see his manners on the road are less than polite (there's a YouTube video to capture this!) so I suspect this is what angered 'Liphook Parent'. It's incredibly patronising to assume someone wouldn't cross the road correctly with their child and the fact no accident happened surely suggests they did wait back and not step into the road. Also, why would the supermarket bother putting crossings in if it didn't expect drivers to be courtious and allow pedestrians to use them!? Surely a complete waste of time if that's the case.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - liz (25th Jul 2017 - 10:02:30) R You may be correct but I would have expected a van driver (or any driver) to be more considerate - particularly if there are children close to the curb.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Ian (25th Jul 2017 - 10:04:35) Firstly, by the sounds of it and regardless of legal obligations the driver should have shown more awareness and stopped. HOWEVER, as witnessed at other 'official' crossings around the village pedestrians need to show responsibility for their safety when using crossings. There are far too many occasions where I have witnessed pedestrians just stepping onto a crossing with the assumption the driver has to stop and not considering that the driver can stop safely. Yes drivers should approach crossings with care but the harsh reality is that cars hitting people hurt/damage/kill so people should show extreme care when using crossings and certainly not assume that a car will/can stop in time just because they step onto the crossing

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - dave (25th Jul 2017 - 10:47:40) If a car did hit a someone on a marked pedestrian crossing, then it would be very hard for the driver to argue that it was not his fault, irrespective of the official status of the crossing or the actions of the pedestrian. Drivers should always anticipate pedestrians on pedestrian crossings and be prepared to stop before hitting them. It is just as wrong to hit inconsiderate people as it is to hit considerate people.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - helen (25th Jul 2017 - 14:32:48) If a pedestrian steps out when a car is coming onto a crossing by sainsbury then the legal comeback is questionable, the moral consequences are that both pedestrian and driver should be crossing aware. Some people do just step out regardless of traffic. Cars should be going slow enough near that crossing to not hit anyone but why do people not look at what is coming?

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - R (26th Jul 2017 - 13:00:09) Amy:- “I think you are entirely missing the point here. It’s not to do with legality. It’s to do with the way people drive.” I apologise if I have missed the point. Perhaps you could fill in the parts that I’ve missed. The objective data I have so far is that a van driver didn’t stop for a waiting pedestrian in a section of a car park where the driver was under no obligation to give way. At the same time, the pedestrian that was waiting was under the wrong assumption that the van driver was obligated to stop, because the pedestrian had mistakenly thought the markings in the car park were an official zebra crossing. While you’re filling me in with the additional details, and with the above in mind, could you also explain what the justification is for the company’s name being plastered negatively all over the internet, in spite of the fact that the van driver has done nothing wrong? @ liz I agree that it would have been a lot more pleasant had the van driver been more courteous. However, I feel that an incorrect assumption doesn’t give someone licence to taint a company’s name when no wrong has been committed. If you have an issue with the driver, go and talk about it with the driver.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - liz (26th Jul 2017 - 15:36:55) R The driver is representing the company and should behave appropriately don't you think?

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - dave (26th Jul 2017 - 16:08:45) But, R, the driver did have an obligation to stop. According to the Road Traffic Act 1988, s 192(1), to which the Road Traffic Act 1991 and the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 refer, a ‘road’ means any highway to which the public has access. It also includes any bridges over which a road passes. The public has access to the car park in Sainsburys and the private roads leading to it and therefore these are 'roads' and the law applies. This has been tested in court, see Bugge v Taylor [1941] 1 KB 198, 104 JP 467. It matters not one jot if the road is publicly owned or adopted by the council. If it looks like a road and the public has access along it, then it is a road under the law, and all the various road traffic acts, regulations and the Highway Code apply.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - V (26th Jul 2017 - 16:44:51) The crossings on the road going directly into Sainsburys and in the car park are black and white striped with clear signs saying pedestrian crossing so cars should obviously be prepared to slow down & stop if a pedestrian is there, I would say that is quite clear. (legal or not) The crossing points by the roundabout before the entrance are less clear, they are not proper pedestrian crossings so cars are not legally obliged to stop. These crossings are on a bend and often cars come whizzing round so fast, it can be quite dangerous, particularly if you have children, heavy shopping, or are elderly. Cars just need to go a little slower,10mph less makes a huge difference. We should all as drivers and pedestrians be a little more tolerant, we all make errors now and again, sometimes pedestrians step out without looking properly, sometimes drivers drive over a pedstrian crossing without realising someone was waiting, I'm sure the original poster was just trying to highlight this so we can all be more aware. I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing which is to to not get run over or knock anyone over, so instead of bickering lets just do that. be more aware

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Liphook Parent (26th Jul 2017 - 18:04:11) The fact is it was just damn rude and potentially dangerous. I was just asking for drivers to be aware of the crossing and the potential for people to cross without taking enough care and likewise for pedestrians to take care on the crossing as there are some drivers who don't take enough care. I was also musing on the irony that the rudest driver I've encountered on the crossing was one in a branded company van. I not particularly interested in whether the crossing is legally marked as a proper crossing, whether it's on private land or a public road or anything else. It's largely irrelevant at the point an accident happens.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Katie (26th Jul 2017 - 18:04:24) There seem to be a few people in this village who think it's perfectly acceptable and legal to drive without due care and attention in local car parks because they are on privately owned land. It's neither acceptable nor legal. As we no longer have any local police, people are bound to start naming and shaming those who choose to drive like complete ar**holes as they have no other recourse. R, you don't happen to own the business in question? If so, would you mind having a chat with this particular ar**hole before he kills someone?

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - R (27th Jul 2017 - 15:15:24) @ liz I agree that a driver is a representative of the company they are working for and should behave appropriately. From the details I have read in this thread, apart from being discourteous (subject to personal opinion obviously), this driver didn’t behave inappropriately. @ dave You are correct when you say that the Sainsbury’s car park comes under the category of ‘public road’, even though it is private land. That is why I mentioned due care and attention. You are incorrect to state that the driver had an obligation to stop. I don’t wish to repeat myself, but the crossings in the Sainsbury’s car park are not Zebra, Pelican or Puffin Pedestrian Crossings. This means the Highway Code doesn’t apply and therefore the driver was under no obligation to stop for the pedestrian. If these crossings were to be considered as a Zebra, Pelican or Puffin Pedestrian Crossing, they would prove to be woefully inadequate, as they are insufficiently marked, poorly lit and fall way below the standards required. That would make the land owner liable. Feel free to look back over my other posts for more details as I no longer wish to repeat the same information. @ Liphook Parent I know that you are not particularly interested in the legalities of your incident with the van driver, but unfortunately they are very pertaining to the issues you raised. In your OP, your request for drivers to be “prepared to stop for pedestrians” gives out the wrong message that motorists are obligated to stop, which they are not. This was all that the first person to post called Richard and myself were trying to bring to everybody’s attention. It would be tragic if someone was to step out in front of an inconsiderate driver like you encountered with this misinformation. It would be worse still if a parent was to push a pram or buggy out in front of a vehicle and find out that they were the one who was liable to prosecution, just because they acted on a wrong assumption and were not aware of the law. I share your sentiment that drivers should be considerate to pedestrians, and I personally stop at these crossing for parents with children, or anybody else waiting to cross. But to request that drivers be prepared to stop, when they are not legally obliged to prioritise pedestrians, gives out a dangerous, ill-informed message. Katie:- “R, you don’t happen to own the business in question?” No I don’t. My ability to do plastering would put such a company out of business. Katie:- “If so, would you mind having a chat with this particular ar**hole before he kills someone?” I hope that you using such an unsavoury title for the van driver indicates that you were a witness to this incident, because if not it would be yet another inappropriate assumption, don’t you think? If that is so, such a title might be considered by some as rather self applicable, with the addition of the titles ‘presumptuous’ and ‘ignorant’, neither of which would be pejoratives.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Katie (27th Jul 2017 - 16:43:03) R, you're probably right. I'm sure he's a right charmer really... youtube.com/...

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - Paul (27th Jul 2017 - 17:30:16) bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - liz (28th Jul 2017 - 08:22:27) @@@R I don't think a company would be entirely happy with an employee acting discourteously while driving a company van. That's why some have 'How's my driving?' written on them. - The company is savvy enough to know it matters.

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - oldie (28th Jul 2017 - 14:04:38) Katie, judging by that video you posted I'd say the cyclist was in the wrong, edging back and forth onto and off the carriageway like that.. Mind you I've never liked those lying down contraptions anyway, not really bicycles at all, I'm not sure if you even can put your foot down with them, I think you have to put you're hand down, frankly I'm surprised they get seen at all sometimes. Anyway, on that occasion it appears to be the van passenger, not the driver who offered sound and helpful words of advice to the person riding, who appears to have been joining the carriageway even whilst the van was coming towards him, that must have made the passenger fearful for his safety. Great bit of safety advice from that van man, hope he heeds it and doesn't just stick it up on youtube in a huff.. As for unenforceable zebra crossings, clearly as has been said, they do not meet lawful standards of observation required for both driver and pedestrian safety, in terms of beacons, markings or distance of observation, so they are a false sense of security and should be redesigned and improved. Whilst I understand Sainsburys car park is classified as public highway (a road open to the public whoever owns it) because the zebras weren't installed to the requirement, they can only be advisory. But whilst no specific offence for contravening a crossing apply, all the usual laws on careful driving etc still apply. That said, I always stop for pedestrians there as I'm sure most of us do PS here's a bit of RTA blurb: "Most of the provisions apply on all roads throughout Great Britain, although there are some exceptions. The definition of a road in England and Wales is ‘any highway and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes’ (RTA 1988 sect 192(1)). In Scotland, there is a similar definition which is extended to include any way over which the public have a right of passage (R(S)A 1984 sect 151(1)). It is important to note that references to ‘road’ therefore generally include footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks, and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks). In most cases, the law will apply to them and there may be additional rules for particular paths or ways. Some serious driving offences, including drink-driving offences, also apply to all public places, for example public car parks." .

Re: Sainsbury's Zebra Crossing - oldie (28th Jul 2017 - 14:33:42) PS Katie, the video you posted (on second look) seems to be from an Invictus rider, whilst I very much doubt they would have known that from the van, I would like to correct my lack of understanding of these bicycles, I believe they are used by paralympians and disabled riders, something I never realised. Regards all.

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