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Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Curious Christianity (24th May 2017 - 20:35:45) I recently heard that a guest speaker that had been booked to speak at the Church Centre on Wednesday at the Lunch Break group, was not allowed to speak due to the fact that the talk was to be about understanding Free Masonry. Whilst the Free Masons have just generously donated £100,000, (which was accepted) to Winchester cathedral via the bishop and the Liphook and Bramshot's parish own literature clearly states that they are all inclusive and welcome everyone, I am curious as to why the vicar and other clergy members were so against this talk and ordered it not to go ahead. Please can anyone enlighten me?

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Katie (25th May 2017 - 20:20:45) Are women welcome to join the Freemasons?

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - George (25th May 2017 - 20:26:41) It cannot be revealed as 'its a secret'

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Barbara (25th May 2017 - 21:54:06) I have researched this and fundamental Christians believe that Free Masonry is akin to Paganism, it is certainly ritualistic and secret!

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Dave W (25th May 2017 - 23:11:59) I was a bit surprised to read this. I have been a member for the best part of 20 years and belong to 2 Masonic Lodges in this Province, ( Hampshire and the IOW.) I most certainly regard myself as a Christian and I have not found anything in masonry that I would regard as incompatable with my civic, moral or religious duties. Indeed, one member in one lodge I belong to is a very active serving Vicar. Pretty much anything you want to find out is in your public library or the internet, but that knowledge cannot convey the fraternal friendship and brotherhood that is very much a feature of this organisation..

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Katie (26th May 2017 - 09:16:12) Please could you answer my question, Dave? I have Googled it and it seems the answer is no but I wanted to check as a lot of information online relates to American Freemasons.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Paul Robinson (26th May 2017 - 09:26:29) Freemasonry was disbanded by Hitler's Nazi Germany and Mussolini's fascist Italy in the 1930s and communist Russia. Very odd company for the Church of England to keep. Paul Robinson

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Barbara (26th May 2017 - 09:46:47) Thank you for your posting. I am intrigued to know though if there is nothing in the Masons incompatible with our society, why women are not equally welcomed in the lodges as equal members, (not just in separate ladies branches) and why certain ceremonies are kept secret, and why all members of our society are not welcomed in as members, all fundamentals of Christianity. I understand that there is charitable work done, but that does not need membership of an exclusive club. I suspect it is partly now to facilitate local business deals away from the public gaze and local business networking. I do not think the lodges are registered charities although I could be wrong. Why are all the clothes and paraphernalia needed? e.g. Aprons, third eye, fez, long robes etc? Why do the Masons need temples? Why not just do your business deals through LiDBA?

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - I (26th May 2017 - 10:36:29) Why are girls allowed into Beavers, Cubs and Scouts but boys are not allowed into Rainbows, Brownies and Guides? For goodness sake ladies, get over yourselves!

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - oldie (26th May 2017 - 10:49:47) Can boys join the Girl Guides? No, but girls must be allowed in the Boy Scouts! Can I join the WI or go to the womens only gym, can I go to the women only swimming sessions at my state run pool? Why are there no 'men only swimming sessions? There's even a Women's Party standing for Parliament in these elections! Women hate the fact that blokes like to get together to chill, away from any nagging for a while, whereas men are perfectly happy for you girls to have a bit of your own space, yes we understand you need it. So there are male groups in the Masons (which is predominately a social club with a bit of charity fundraising, they really don't make many stone statues anymore) and female groups too. Sounds very fair. As for religion, I think the Masons hail from all or no religions as an earlier poster said, in fact they have a policy of 'don't ask', it's a non issue. Maybe that's what the church didn't like? Anyway, live and let live ladies.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Richard (26th May 2017 - 11:40:30) The occultist Aleister Crowley, who called himself "The Great Beast 666" claimed to be a Freemason, and his association with Freemasonry is one major reason why some conservative Christians see it as an occult organization. According to Martin P. Starr, all of the lodges and organizations Crowley joined and founded were considered irregular. Crowley joined the Anglo Saxon #343 lodge of Paris in 1904. The lodge was under the obedience of the Grande Loge de France (GLDF), which was and still is unrecognized by the United Grand Lodge of England. However, during the First World War certain American Grand Lodges recognized the GLDF, thus allowing Crowley to visit a number of regular Blue Lodges while staying in America. This recognition remained in place to the early 1960s, making Crowley's initiation regular in these jurisdictions far past his death Perhaps the fact that probably the most well known Satanist was a Mason could have something to do with why they are banned.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Barbara (26th May 2017 - 12:41:43) I was a WI member for a while and do not think there were any rules stopping men from joining. My points about secrecy have not been answered though. If it is just a men's social club why have a closed membership? Surely that is why men go to the pub with friends. And, some men can nag for England. Women have not cornered the market on that one!

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - I (26th May 2017 - 14:01:11) Just because groups of men tend not to bitch and gossip doesn't mean we have anything to hide. Just accept that sometimes we just don't want to be around you, nothing hostile, nothing sinister, nothing secretive, just want some bloke time. On another issue of equality, at my local rugby club in the mini's girls are free to join in. However as it goes full contact the girls are clearly disadvantaged (that's damn nature for you) and there are not enough girls to make their own team so low and behold, some of the little darlings Mums are moaning that it is not fair on their daughters, For goodness sake ladies!!!

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Thomas D (26th May 2017 - 14:33:30) Back to the original topic, a few facts for anyone interested:- (I have no connections with Masons and am not a Christian.) The June 1987 meeting of the General Synod in York set the official C of E stance on Freemasonry. After 16 months of study, a 56-page report “Freemasonry and Christianity: Are They Compatible?”. was prepared by a seven member committee led by sociologist Margaret Hewett. The committee included two Freemasons. A debate was held and by a vote of 384 to 52 with five abstentions, the General Synod approved the report which suggested that for ‘a number of very fundamental reasons’, Freemasonry and Christianity were not compatible. It was noted in the report that although freemasonry is not a religion and supports faith, it advocates a doctrine of righteousness based on doing good works that conflicts with the Christian doctrine of Grace. There were other theological difficulties, but C of E Masons were not asked to resign from their lodges. Masons believe in unity, fellowship and service to the community and have a record of generous charity giving, especially for medical research. They do not promote one faith as superior to any other and have a generally deist view of creation. The 1987 report stated that some Christians found Masonic rituals disturbing and others perceived them as ‘positively evil’. A particular objection was that in certain rituals, Masons use the name ‘Jahbulon’, which is an amalgam of Hebrew, Egyptian and Semitic words for God and this was seen to be blasphemous. Some senior churchmen defended the Masons. The then Archbishop of York, The Most Rev. Dr. John Habgood, said that Freemasonry was a fairly harmless eccentricity, and the Bishop of Manchester, the Rt. Rev. Stanley Booth-Clibborn (grandson of William Booth who founded the Salvation Army) said there should be no pressure on Masons and no witch hunt. The previous Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, was known to be hostile to Masonry, but nevertheless appointed the Rt. Rev. Jonathan Baker as Bishop of Ebbsfleet in 2011 despite knowing he was a senior active Mason. However Bishop Baker resigned from his Oxford Lodge soon after taking on his appointment as Bishop. In more recent times during the tenure of the present Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, high profile services in Canterbury and St Albans Cathedrals have been held for large numbers of Masons. So there is now debate as to whether the 1987 policy is becoming obsolete. It is generally accepted that the Medieval stone mason’s guilds were the forefathers of modern freemasonry. Perhaps ironically, these were the men who built the beautiful gothic Cathedrals in the UK and the rest of Europe. Stone masons were considered to be the superior trade and Master Masons were well educated and highly skilled. They supervised and coordinated building works and became powerful and rich. Unlike the other trades, more lowly masons had to be itinerant to get work, and during major construction projects, they set up ‘lodges’ near the outer walls of the castles, churches and cathedrals in which to work and live. Their tools of trade, the set square and compass, are the symbol seen on Lodges today. The modern Masons who are little more than a ‘gentlemen’s club’ are a far cry from the secretive societies of past times, but it is clear that they are poaching on the territory of the Church, with temples, altars, prayers, worship, a moral code, vestments, a hierarchy, initiation and burial rites, feast days and promote beliefs in reward or punishment in the after-life. I guess the local vicar either just consulted the C of E official dogma and decided to follow it literally, or perhaps he has personal doctrinal reasons for not approving of the Masonic speaker. Either way, I personally think it would have done little if any harm to allow the talk to go ahead, and permit the audience to make their own minds up. Banning a speaker shows the Church to be closed minded, autocratic, and controlling of what people should learn about.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Katie (26th May 2017 - 21:57:17) In response to 'I' (bit secretive, no?) All I asked was whether women are allowed to join the Freemasons in the UK. I am genuinely interested in what they are all about as there seems to be a whole lot of misinformation online. Thank you for taking the time to share all of the many, many issues you have with women.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Andrew (26th May 2017 - 22:03:59) Ladies ...think Epsom races are going again this year so hope your all there ... Now this was about church and who was or was not allowed to give a speech .. this vicar is very two faced and has ruined much of church good work with flipbook youth ..so no surprise to see him putting a stop to something he thinks may not be right instead of letting people make up their own minds .. Paul rR you are still talking rubbish as per normal. .

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Barbara (27th May 2017 - 09:30:30) If the level of misogyny on this website is measure of what to expect inside the secretive mystic realm of a typical Masonic meeting, perhaps women are better off remaining outside the hallowed doors anyway. One reason I hope the talk is neccessary is that membership is failing, due to younger men having more sense than to join the masons.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - I (27th May 2017 - 09:58:33) Haha Katie, I would be intrigued to know what you think my many issues with women might be? What I can tell you is I am not so neurotic to think that other folk might be keeping secrets from me just because they don't include me in their clubs and gatherings!

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Paul Robinson (27th May 2017 - 18:43:05) Andrew, You appear not to have approved of my posting on this site, you must agree however that the facts are correct and my posting was grammatical. Your late night posting viewed, no doubt through the bottom of a glass, may have convinced you otherwise. Paul Robinson

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - B (30th May 2017 - 20:18:47) As one of those who had looked forward to the scheduled Talk at the Church Centre Lunch Break by a Free Mason on the subject of Free Masonry, I found Thos D's reply to the original enquiry most interesting and agree whole-heartedly with his final paragraph. I feel those present were denied a superb opportunity to learn real facts on the subject of which most people who condemn it, have scant knowledge.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Carol (8th Jun 2017 - 14:46:25) My goodness, what a carry-on all over some religious dogma and belief!! I am so glad I have refused to belong to any church ( there`s loads to choose from) and none as I can see follow closely the precepts that were first propounded by Jesus himself; his only teaching was "that you love one another", NOT fight over who and which group is right or wrong.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - oldie (8th Jun 2017 - 20:07:09) Carol, it's up to you which (if any) church or religion you join and I understand how frustrating it is, there are hundreds of self serving denominations trying to get in on the action!. But Jesus taught much more than 'love one another' or 'the meek shall inherit the kingdom of heaven'. He was an angry guy who threw over the money lenders tables in disgust, told his disciples (anyone who follows him) to give up everything for him, even their families if they got in the way, pick up their crosses and follow him, making disciples wherever they go. Suffer in this world for salvation in the next and to be martyred for that would be glorious. I'm not sure what to make of him, was he The Messiah, I don't know, but he certainly wasn't a meek hippy, but more urgent and fanatical, no nonsense, no excuses, do it my way or to hell with you! And for that matter, if you read the Old Testament, their god was a god of war, chosen by the Israelites because he would annihilate (literally) all their enemies! Religion has moved on of course, in most cases!

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Phelim (26th Jun 2017 - 10:28:36) If people want to know what Freemasonry is really about then get hold of Darkness Visible by Walton Hannah. Or get hold of the writings of high ranking Mason Alfred Pike whose works are still official manuals for many of the Masonic lodges in the US and Europe. Many churches, quite rightly, call Freemasonry incompatible with Christianity and will not allow its buildings to be used or leaders to be members (Portsmouth diocese has had the rule that people could not be lay readers or ministers if members of the Masons). This is not just the view of much of the Anglican Church but the Catholic Church and most newer denominations. Also, it is not just Christianity that has problems with Freemasonry - Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and the other major religions all have spoken out against the Lodge and its practices.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Paul (28th Jun 2017 - 08:28:37) Honestly - some of the rubbish that is written about Freemasonry! My father is an active Freemason, and my family have been involved in Masonry for around 30 years. I suspect most of the people making claims about its secrecy, incompatibility with religion etc have no idea about the principles of Freemasonry (which are widely available and hardly secret). To help people out here, one of the underpinning principles of Masonry is that there is no discussion about religion in Lodges. It could not be more accepting of different faiths, but has the sense to keep religion and politics out of the many and extensive charitable arms which operate globally. Modern Freemasonry may keep many of its old traditions as part of normal cultural heritage, but overall it is primarily a society that operates in public and performs extensive charitable work that benefits tens of thousands of people. Of course there are no column inches or profit in reporting on a successful charity so the good work of Freemasonry goes largely unreported. I'm afraid that much of the sensationalist material that circulates is basically 'fake news'. Feel free to drop into a local Lodge (there is one right beside Tesco in Bordon) to find out more about it.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - helen (28th Jun 2017 - 10:11:59) Why are women not accepted then except on special "ladies nights"? If it is run on modern principles? Also religion may not be discussed at the lodge but the Masons still retain their temples surely?

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - I (28th Jun 2017 - 11:17:42) Helen, once again as before, why are boys not allowed in Brownies yet girls are allowed in Cubs? Perhaps sometimes guys wants a club without girls and vice versa. Nothing sinister! we just need to acknowledge that there are differences between the needs, desires, and behaviours of Men and Women

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - Paul (29th Jun 2017 - 08:53:52) @ Helen - it is completely wrong to say women are excluded, there are thousands of female Freemasons in the UK and around the world, and many mixed Lodges. www.owf.org.uk The above website contains accurate information on the work of female freemasons including their lodges that you may find interesting. Again, the inclusiveness and charitable work of modern freemasonry isn't likely to sell newspapers or books so people make up fake news. My father is the Treasurer of a Grand Lodge (overseas) and the amount of money that Freemasons give to charity is simply staggering. Everything from paying for entire hospitals overseas, to supporting families financially (for life) after bereavement, and much more in between. The Grand Lodge of England donates over £33,000,000 annually to charity.

Re: Why are Free Masons not welcome at the Church Centre? - helen (29th Jun 2017 - 10:52:09) I am pleased to hear of mixed lodges but have not heard of any locally?

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