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Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dee (12th Jan 2017 - 11:09:12) I openly admit that I'm not keen on attending dull meetings and so I am as much to blame as everyone else. However, I decided to attend the Finance and Planning meeting held last night because I am fed up with the Parish feeling free to raise their rates year on year even though Hampshire County Council and East Hants have managed to freeze them each year. I came away from this meeting utterly incensed and, not for the first time, left with the feeling that they are a corrupt bunch lining their own pockets. Added to which, when grant applications were discussed, it was clearly evident to me that they have their favourites. I felt even more angry when they couldn't even agree to give the whole grant amount to the new nursery school starting in the church. I could go on and on with examples but the real purpose of this thread is to plead and implore as many people as possible to attend the Parish meeting being held on Jan 30th in the Peak Centre at 7.30. This is our one chance to show that Bramshott and Liphook residents will NOT stand by and allow the Parish to do what they want, when they want and how they want. Whilst we don't make a stand, we are effectively giving them this free rein so please please come.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Mrs (12th Jan 2017 - 13:39:04) Well done Dee, I will be joining you, see you there

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dee (12th Jan 2017 - 16:05:25) Thank you Mrs. I truly hope others will come also - just the two of us isn't exactly going to be a show of strength!

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - David (12th Jan 2017 - 17:07:35) Dee, could you explain how you think by being a councillor you could line your own pockets? I am not declaring war or stirring it up, I just genuinely don't see how you can personally financially gain from the position. I happened to attend the planning meeting the other day and on 1st impression thought they were quite approachable and did seem to listen what was being said to them by the public.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dee (12th Jan 2017 - 17:51:52) David - my error in that I should have said I attended the Finance and POLICY meeting. The Planning Committee discusses different issues and you are right, they do listen to the public. I just think it is shameful that they deliberate and then reduce grants to worthwhile projects (eg nursery school) on the grounds that these activities have enough money already and yet the Parish feel free to recommend a 13% increase in our council tax despite having a very very health bank account. I think that smacks of double standards. As for lining their own pockets, this was just a figure of speech but they do get paid expenses ...

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - David (12th Jan 2017 - 18:45:47) Fair enough, I had two children at the Willows when it closed and it was most annoying and I still feel the whole thing was handled poorly. The nursery school provision is not great but unfortunately these things do happen. My kids then went to Little cherubs and it was brilliant, they loved it and it set them up for school as the staff were great. Perhaps the phrase a corrupt bunch lining their own pockets was a bit much as to the majority that does imply a financial gain by any means. I think it's the case of if you want to sort it you need to either join the council and do good from the 'inside' or muster public support that you are doing anyway so that's great.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Barbara (12th Jan 2017 - 19:35:31) Hi Dee I do not think Parish Councillors get any expenses that is district and county councillors.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Concerned local (13th Jan 2017 - 08:48:47) Dee - you state "they are a corrupt bunch lining their own pockets" This is a serious allegation to throw into the public domain and really needs to be substantiated with specifics and proof. I appreciate we are all entitled to freedom of speech but with that comes a responsibility for accountability and truth so please can you list the specific issues where our parish councillors have been guilty of corruption and have lined their own pockets. Perhaps you can name specific individuals? For the record, I am not on the parish council and have no connections with any members. I am just a local resident that is concerned that such dramatic and serious allegations can be made on a forum such as this without the requirement of proof.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Amy (13th Jan 2017 - 10:28:11) To be fair 'concerned local' in the eyes of the law making a sweeping statement is perfectly acceptable (albeit not always accurate or appropriate). However, naming individuals or specific incidences on a public forum becomes libel until proven by a court of law, so I strongly suggest this is not the place for that! I think it was a bad turn or phrase that had been blown out of proportion. The message being stated is that the council are not acting in the best interest of locals and saving money when perhaps it could be wisely spent. This is a very common issue across many organisations who sit on thousands of pounds as 'rainy day' money when there are many genuine causes that could benefit. I have no experience of this situation do that may not be the case, but it's certainly true elsewhere.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dee (13th Jan 2017 - 11:08:19) Thank you Amy. You have expressed my concerns far better than I did. I should have waited until I felt a little less incensed before writing this thread as I would have chosen my words more carefully. I still feel strongly that we need to show ourselves at the meeting on Jan 30th when we would have the opportunity to discuss any concerns. In fairness to the Committee, if no-one shows up, the Committee has to make all the decisions based on their views alone

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dawn Hoskins (13th Jan 2017 - 19:04:27) Dee, on the one hand you don’t want the Parish Council to spend money – and on the other you get cross when they don’t hand money out to every organisation that asks for a grant? Is this the reason you think that they are corrupt? I can assure you that money doesn’t pass through the Parish Council, the Councillors turn up for nothing, don’t get a single penny and don’t ask for a single penny! Every lightbulb and toilet roll is accounted for as is every penny that has to be spent on everything else. I agree that meeting can be dull, Finance and Policy in particular, but the normal full council meeting is usually quite interesting as there are reports from everyone about what committees have done what, plus the county councillor and district councillors give a report. Making a public statement that councillors are stealing money is horrible, you have not stood in their shoes, you have not been to regular meetings or even had one-to-one meetings with them to find out more about them – and yet you come to this slanderous conclusion and announce it with no justification. The budget that the Parish Council have has to last the whole year and be saved up for projects like fixing roofs or holes in the ground or making new steps into Radford Park - plus keeping a % back for unforeseen emergencies etc They don’t just save it up to spend on chocolate biscuits. Also, MP’s claim expenses yes, as do District and County Councillors – all of whom receive a nice salary thank you very much. Parish councillors can only get, for example, the cost of a rail ticket if they travel outside of the parish for a meeting – hardly ever happens. If it does, they have paid for something out of their own pocket and are only getting back what they paid – so they are NOT STEALING or LINING THEIR POCKETS – and again, if the claim is put in in the first place (often it is not) – every single penny is accounted for and printed out for all to see. It would be marvellous if you, Dee, would stand to run as Parish Councillor – I implore you to do so. Then you can give us regular posts about how no councillor lines their pockets, just works really hard, for no recognition (not that they ask for any) for keyboard warriors to slag them off in open forums – when their code of conduct prevents them from fighting back on-line. Please stand for election Dee. Then when you’ve got your hands tied behind your back and are unable to respond or defend yourself, and after you’ve worked a full day at work rushed around to feed the kids and then traipsed off for a full evening of meetings, let’s see how you cope with people saying you’re a money thief. Especially people who have openly admitted to never having made an effort to meet and greet the Councillors or go to meetings. My advice if you are wanting to know about what goes on at the Parish Council Email the councillors and ask to meet for a coffee and a chat, ask them what they do – find out who they are. Maybe go to a few Full Council Meetings which are once a month. Then you can find out what they have to deal with, how the money is having demands on it left, right and centre and how all the decision are made.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - tony (13th Jan 2017 - 22:36:29) Some very good points as ever Dawn. Dee seems to have fired off a bit of a rant however well meaning, without sitting down to think it through, something we've all done and people on here are (to their credit) very good at pointing out in no uncertain terms! In her defence, I don't think she said they had stolen anything, equally to 'Concerned Local', she didn't state that they were corrupt, in fact she said she 'left with the feeling...", so not an actual accusation, more a feeling of mistrust. To be fair, I think that it's a fairly common sentiment up and down the country at the moment that our politicians are more intent on feathering their own nests than actual public service. By the way Amy, you can libel a group of people if the group is not too large (ie all doctors are thieves (not libellous), all doctors at XYZ practice are thieves (potentially libellous) . Any way I wouldn't want to be a councillor in this day and age (the days of feathering your own nest without any awkward questions being asked are fast disappearing), although if I had a new development I needed planning for, I might still follow Dawn's advice of phoning them up and I'd invite a few of them out to slap up meal. Politics as ever, the world over (and you can't libel the whole world thankfully). Anyway no doubt I'm mixing Parish Councillors up with Local councillors, who I'm mixing up with County Councillors, who I'm mixing up in turn with District Councillors, just like everyone else does. But there are a couple of things I'd like to ask Dawn. Firstly why do the Parish Council have a 'code of conduct' that stops them 'fighting back on line'? I think that's a bit wimpy in this day and age, sure we'd all love to hear them on here answering back! I'm sure they could be trusted to do so eloquently and calmly, couldn't they??? And finally, what are these 'holes in the ground' they are saving up our money for? Aren't holes in the ground dealt with at district or is that county level? (now I'm totally confused!)

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Helen (14th Jan 2017 - 10:21:37) I think she is referring to any repairs/work done on land where the Parish Council has the maintenance responsibility. Dee has now gone silent, it would be interesting to see if she has the same bravery to repeat the same words in person at a meeting as she has on here.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dawn Hoskins (17th Jan 2017 - 11:50:14) Hi Tony Yes, Dee has gone silent and is maybe rethinking her initial rant. Firstly, I should say, I think it is brilliant that a new person has gone to a meeting; been annoyed about something and decided that she is going to do something about it - for that I applaud her. Her methods were very wonky, but her passion is clear. You have to go to quite a few meetings to understand how they work. If you want to raise a point for discussion you submit it to the clerk for next month's agenda - so all parties can speak with knowledge on a topic - not just have it sprung on them. There is a small time for questions 'not on the agenda' but [double edged sword] if it is not on the agenda, no councillors will be up to date with the facts, and therefore, probably won't be able to deal with the point. That section is good for ongoing things or pointing out something that needs fixing - shorts, sweet, noted down by the clerk for action, then move on to the next question. Many 'first-timers' feel frustrated simply because they don't understand the mechanism. The way it works. It is a bit slow and clunky because everything has to be recorded 'which councillor has done what' 'which councillor has said what' so, information given, at meetings is generally is a report of the past events. You can't make a promise about what will happen in the future - you can't put that on 'record' and be held accountable for it - as it is uncertain and not in your control. You can agree a set of guidelines that you are working towards, but often that is not enough to satisfy particular points that parishioners have turned up to question. People will generally only come to a meeting about one single bone of contention, often a small point in an overall picture, and they will demand that you fix it right now - at the meeting - this very minute. Or - they will disagree with a decision, turn up to a meeting to tell you about it, and want it reversed, right now, at this meeting. The problem is, the system is slow and clunky. By the time a decision has been made - the ground work has been done (takes longer than you would expect as many councillors work full time) the information about who has been spoken to, what professional advice has been received, the cost of things etc etc is then brought to a meeting and then 12 individual councillors have to sit around the table and reach a majority decision on what will go ahead. This is not straightforward as humans are involved and humans do keep having their own opinions!! So, when something has already been decided upon and reported (which has agitated the parishioner enough to come to a meeting); it is already past history. The background work, discussion, investigation (whatever) has been done and dusted a long time ago and 12 people have already come to their final decisions. They are reporting on 'a past event' so to speak. This is hard for people to understand - so they turn up, make accusations or demands on the spot, and think that the councillors are being rude, or dismissive because they won't have a debate with them on the topic they are passionate about. Just like in football - you have to know the rules of the game to score a goal! You may be a great rugby player - but if you are on a cricket pitch you, and your points, are a 'chocolate teapot' - useless. The Code of Conduct is what you sign up to when you become a councillor - it is all about not bringing the council into disrepute. You are not permitted to have a stand-up row with anyone as this is unprofessional and lowers the standing of the council in the minds of most people. So 'one person' doing this can lower the standing of not just all 12 councillors - but all the staff employed by the council as well. Sometimes, you just want to tell people that they are being stupid idiots, that their idea is totally unrealistic and never going to happen and phoning you twice a week and writing complaint letters to EHDC is just a ridiculous waste of their time and yours - but what you actually do is smile and nod! The conflict arises when; because councillors are also voters and individual people in their own right - they are permitted to have personal opinions both when they are on duty and when they are off duty. So, before I was a councillor I was very active on this site - enjoyed reading other people's opinions and having debates etc. After I became a councillor I felt no need to stop behaving in the same manner - and this was frowned upon by many of the other councillors at the time. It was not frowned upon because I was not allowed - it was frowned upon because parishioners have a difficulty in not tarring all 12 councillors, and all the staff, with the brush painted by my own personal opinion. Not every councillor has the same opinion as each other - that is their God given right, it is also their right to express that if they chose - but they don't want people to think that the word of one councillor posting on-line is the view of every councillor in the parish - because it was not then and it could never be now. This is why it is easier to save the debate for the council meeting - so everyone can see who 'agreed' and who 'disagreed' by show of hands. You may think that it is all a bit wimpy, but this day and age has brought with it the risk of being trolled and abused on-line, which is a common experience. It was very recent that a few particular parishioners were using multiple fake names to tell lies about councillors for their own malicious reasons. Certainly, if I was ever being personally lied about I would always fight back and put the truth out. The problem with people who are deliberately telling lies is that they are either doing so on purpose for some misguided reason, or they believe wholeheartedly that they are correct. Either way - replying at all is just kicking a hornet's next. These people are often ONLY online - you will never get to see them in person, often they don't exist in real-life, they won't come to a council meeting to hear a full debate on an issue, but will pick up a 'fag-end' from someone in the pub - believe it - then try to evangelise and convert people to 'their' truth. Whether it happened or not - they don't care and don't want to listen. I know you would all love to hear councillors answering back! But you cannot reason with a person who is unreasonable. That is the same offline as online. Humans are prone to being unreasonable because emotions get in the way. The parish council are only dealing in facts and pounds sterling - emotions are off the table. Councillors are generally very able to control themselves and be calm - it is their debating partners who can not. Trolls (not everyone is a troll - some are genuine with genuine grievances) don't have to hold back, it is only themselves they are representing - for the councillors, whether they like it or not, they are representing the whole local council structure and bringing the whole structure into disrepute if they 'lose it' and tell someone to 'shut up'. Humans are allowed do 'lose it' in the face of abuse or unreasonableness - but it seems that councillors are not given that privilege and therein lies the problem. Finally, no one can magic money out of thin air if a crisis arises. If you are living a hand to mouth existence, all can trot along just fine as long as you only ever expect the same items to go from hand to mouth. If a spanner is thrown unexpectedly into the works, there are different rules for public bodies than private individuals. For example - someone phones up to say they have just fallen off the path or steps that are maintained by your taxes.Or, a report comes in saying the collapse of a ceiling is inevitable without repair, or a temporary building is a safety risk....if it was your own family you could say to them 'don't go in there until it is fixed' - 'we've not got the money to do it right now - don't do in/don't use it'. The parish council cannot do this. They can't predict the future - but experience tells that these 'holes in the ground' are going to crop up, unexpectedly and need fixing without prevarication. It is true at most things are dealt with at district or county level (and an 'actual' hole in the tarmac road is dealt with by Winchester Highways), but land and building run by the parish council have to be paid for and maintained by the parish council. So, example. Recently, the land behind the Millenium Centre suddenly collapsed. It is not an area that anyone uses particularly - it was built like an auditorium for outside performances. If we just put a sign up saying 'danger keep out' we are inviting idiots in who never wanted to go there before but now have the overwhelming urge to do so - and break their little legs. Who pays for that? You do! Cheaper to fix it posthaste than let the little darlings sue you for the damage they have suffered. Sorry - I have written a book!

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Anon (25th Jan 2017 - 16:43:22) See the Herald report, explains it all.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Phelim (26th Jan 2017 - 14:58:32) Not surprised to see that Dawn is defending the Parish Council. Over the past 6 years a number of questionable , and possibly corrupt, actions have been taken with the support of current and ex-counsellors. A number of people, myself included, chose not to stand at the last election because a) not enough others were brave enough to stand in the light of behaviour of certain counsellors for us to make a difference, and b) we did not want the headache of dealing with the mess done by the bullies who were and still are on the Council. If enough people are willing to stand at the next election then we will be able to do something about the ongoing mess the last council and this one have made. If not the questionable behaviour will continue.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dawn Hoskins (27th Jan 2017 - 15:49:45) I'm sure people want to know who has done what corrupt thing - please do inform us!

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Ian (28th Jan 2017 - 10:57:36) Come on them phlem (or whatever your real name is, at least we know who our councillors are). Show us some of that bravery you say is lacking in others then and post your real name and substantiate your allegations of corruption with at least one specific incident.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Lucy (28th Jan 2017 - 15:51:42) Corruption is defined as dishonesty and fraud, usually involving bribery.If you can prove these serious allegations please do, otherwise you are just a troll.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Dawn Hoskins (29th Jan 2017 - 20:03:13) I should say that although I don't know about attendees at meetings in current times, during my time it was generally the same 3 or 4 people that attended, all of whom were well known and none of whom were the posters of rubbish / trolls. The people who have posted [now and in the past] about apparent heinous events have not seen what was actually discussed at meetings, who said yes in the vote, who said no in the vote and which members of the public joined in - BECUASE THEY WEREN'T THERE. By all means, pass judgement on what you have personally witnessed, but repeating something that someone's uncle's, brother's, neighbour told you down the pub that he heard might have happened . . . . . .enough said.

Re: Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council - Ian (30th Jan 2017 - 10:57:42) Dawn - you have forgotten, we are now in a world of 'Alternative Facts'

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