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The Willows Nursery School
- Jan (1st Jul 2015 - 20:24:48)

As part owner and assistant manager of The Willows Nursery School I would like to inform everyone that we WILL be open as usual in September. If you are interested in registering your child with us for September please telephone 07765675175 for more information.

Please note that it is unlikely to re-open in September 2015. See posts from 3rd August onwards.


I have now merged two other Willow related threads into this to prevent repeated postings being necessary. Those being 'The Willows Nursery School Petition' and 'CROUCHER should go'

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Sarah (6th Jul 2015 - 12:07:15)

Both my children have attended this nursery school and I cannot fault it. The ladies do an amazing job with the children and prepare the children so well for school. It's a very friendly and lovely atmosphere and my children always came home happy and not wanting to leave at the end of the day. I would happily recommend 'The Willows' to all my friends. It's a credit to the community.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- kayleigh (11th Jul 2015 - 22:19:58)

hi all,

im just posting on here as this post went down the page quite fast...

and also because as I have been asked if the willows nursery will be open in September...?

I replied 'yes of course the new work starts once the nursery closes for the summer' the last day was 10th july


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Rob (12th Jul 2015 - 08:56:06)

It's good news to know yr still up and running, it's a lovely little nursery school
Good luck for the future

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Concerned (3rd Aug 2015 - 14:31:20)

WOW, after just reading the press release on the council website, are you sure you are opening in September!!

PRESS RELEASE
BRAMSHOTT WAR MEMORIAL RECREATION GROUND
CHARITY NUMBER: 301766

The Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground is a registered charity (301766). The Trustees have considered the options for the Pavilion (Beacon) building which has housed the Willows pre-school for a number of years under an Annual Licence arrangement. The Parish Council is the corporate trustee and as such they have to comply with charity law and uphold the objects of the trust laid down by the original benefactors. The key consideration for the Trustees has been that the Trust was set up to support only recreational activities for the whole community on the Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground.

Although the Willows management were willing to pay for repairs to the building they would require a long term lease. On advice from the Charity Commission this could not be done within the terms of the current deeds as they do not allow for nursery education provision.

The Trustees were mindful of the building being uninsurable in its present condition and with much regret the decision has been made to close the building with immediate effect and start demolition at the earliest opportunity.

The Trustees are very aware that this will have an effect on nursery provision in Liphook and are very sympathetic to those parents and children who will be affected by this action.

The trustees will continue in their endeavour to assist the Willows in finding temporary accommodation until a permanent solution can be found.

Further information about the charity can be found on www.charitycommission.gov.uk/... (charity number 301766), and Action Hampshire’s Information Sheet number 36:

Village halls run by parish
councils as sole trustee


Trustees of the Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground
30th July 2015

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (3rd Aug 2015 - 15:45:08)

I believe the Charity is set up to "provide facilities for the Community". Who are the Trustees that have interpreted the aims of the Charity in this way and as custodians who did they consult with? Can we ask them to publish the communications they have had with the Charity Commission?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (3rd Aug 2015 - 17:07:52)

This parish council cant be trusted THEY HAVE GONE BACK ON THERE
WORD TO THE WILLOWS NURSERY SCHOOL

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- OH DEAR!!! (3rd Aug 2015 - 17:22:04)

Here we go again. Does the second paragraph above not demonstrate whom the BLPC sought guidance from?

It is plain. In black and white, read again. It says "the Charity Commission" etc, etc.

You might as well blame the poor bloody Parish Councillors for the problems at Calais, the Ukrainian crisis and the crash of the Chinese stock market.

If the decision is not theirs to make, why ask them to carry the can.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Shauna (3rd Aug 2015 - 18:25:10)

I have asked for copies of the correspondence they received from the Charities Commission, the website detailing the Charity and its aims is a bit vague, but does mention that the Rec should be used as a facility for the community, especially children... let's reserve judgement until we see these documents.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Rob (3rd Aug 2015 - 19:31:07)

The trustees are a part of the Liphook council, they are just hidding behind the name of trustees!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Trustees of Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground (4th Aug 2015 - 09:41:53)

BRAMSHOTT WAR MEMORIAL RECREATION GROUND

CHARITY NUMBER 301766

We wish to advise the public that the Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground is held in trust and that the Parish Council is the corporate trustee. Trustees must take a consistent and legal position on the use of all the property and buildings on the Recreation Ground and develop an agreed policy that meets the objects of the charity.

The Trust’s registration clearly states that its sole charitable object is for recreation. The Trust owns the land and some buildings, and any funding for maintenance of these comes from the sports clubs, who use the Recreation Ground, and council tax payers.

Parish councillors therefore have two clearly defined and separate roles. As councillors they are responsible to the electorate; as trustee they have to comply with charity law and uphold the objects of the trust laid down by the original benefactors. A fuller and clearer explanation of these separate roles and responsibilities is provided by Action Hampshire, who provide advice to local councils, in their information sheet number 36 (link below):

Village halls run by parish
councils as sole trustee


Full details on the trust may be obtained from the Charity Commissions website

www.charitycommission.gov.uk/...

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (4th Aug 2015 - 10:08:50)

Love that the meeting was held well after the nursery had broken up for the summer. Proper sneaky. Making everyone think that the Willows was safe, then going back on your word. Who ever is responsible. It's disgusting. Obviously there's something in this for someone, it's definitely not for the good of the community. Shame on you.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (4th Aug 2015 - 10:36:30)

An unbelievable and a disgusting way for the Willows Nursery to have been treated by our councillors. Do not be fooled as it is our Parish Councillors who made the decision as they and the Trustees are one and the same.

Smoke and mirrors but I am sure most people can see though it all. Obviously more secret meetings have been held and hidden away from the public and the Willows Nursery as well by the looks of it.

Our councillors are up to their usual tricks, making it up as they go along to suit themselves, or some of them. Councillors haven't been working for the Willows or with them, but against them all the time. Hollow words in their statement as they have clearly intended to evict them from the start. It is councillors who are evicting them not the Charity Commission.

Our councillors cannot be trusted and the handling of this has been incompetent. They have let us down again. Councillors must be held to account and those responsible should resign. Carefully manipulated and orchestrated by councillors to have a bombshell dropped on the Willows Nursery at the start of the summer holidays. Three weeks earlier we were being told that the Willows would be open as usual. It all stinks!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- debbie (4th Aug 2015 - 10:53:45)

Hi there this must be old and someone must of got hold of the old information

My little one has just left there on the 10 th I think it was of July
Now we are going back in sept
This is the reason why willows shut early as work needed to be started
And also one of the nursery teachers wouldn't of posted a new post on here about the willows opening for September and wanting to spread the word that they have spaces

This is just nonsense and I nearly panicked for a minute thinking what are we going to do .
As I don't want my child going anywhere else he loves it there and being new to the area ( a year) I wouldn't want to upset him by changing nurserys

Can one of the teachers from the nursery confirm please that they are not closing ?

Thank you :))))

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (4th Aug 2015 - 10:57:54)

Just seen someone's replied about it defo opening

And yes it's disgusting how the nursery was going to be closed
Disgusting especially when there are only a few nurserys in liphook that are in waking distance

How awful to even consider closing it down when it's our child's education
Disgusting
Well done the willows ya such a lovely nursery and glad my child staying on another year :)))😄

Debbie, it is my understanding that the Willows will NOT be opening in the same location in September.

"The trustees will continue in their endeavour to assist the Willows in finding temporary accommodation until a permanent solution can be found." (see above).

So it all relies on alternative accommodation being found.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Shauna (4th Aug 2015 - 11:09:48)

Lifted this information from the Charity Commission page relating to the Rec, the Trustees have offered this information as the "aims" of the Charity:

GENERAL CHARITABLE PURPOSES
• ACCOMMODATION / HOUSING
• AMATEUR SPORT
• RECREATION

Who
• CHILDREN / YOUNG PEOPLE
• ELDERLY / OLD PEOPLE
• PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
• OTHER DEFINED GROUPS
• THE GENERAL PUBLIC / MANKIND

How
• PROVIDES HUMAN RESOURCES
• PROVIDES BUILDINGS / FACILITIES / OPEN SPACE
• ACTS AS AN UMBRELLA OR RESOURCE BODY

It is very vague, this is why I have asked for more information

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (4th Aug 2015 - 11:37:14)

Hi sorry this has really upset me that's all to hear all this
When we thought it was staying
What a well loved spot close to the park
Easy parking off road for us mums to get our children out the car safely
Instead of on busy roads etc

I really thought the nursery the actual building was safe
I don't know what will happen then my little boy is missing the first few weeks of nursery in sept
And mmmm just say the nursery isn't even opening no more
How do I get him into another in liphook if spaces maybe all gone what do I do ?
It is ok if the willows is opening up or somewhere else being the teachers know he will not be starting back till later on in sept
Nice we come back in sept and will not have anywhere for him to go
Apart from driving out of liphook

Thats why I'm also also worried about the most my boy missing a space !!!!!!

I'm prob just worrying too much but I know spaces are scarce and that is in the infants etc so what will nursery places be like :(

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- john (4th Aug 2015 - 11:42:07)

The Charity Commission Document is just a general heading that the rec ground charity would come under, in much the the same way as a general heading of the registration of a limited company would, it does not mean that all those headings apply to the recreation ground. As I read the press releases, the trustees did not want to sign a year lease with a private company, especially with regard to the fact the building is a 75 year old poorly constructed building. Perhaps if a new building is planned there it will be put to recreational use instead?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (4th Aug 2015 - 12:02:33)

Not sure why my previous post wasn't posted. This is disgusting. Making everyone think that the Willows was safe and staying. Then arranging a meeting after the nursery had broken up for the summer holidays. Extremely sneaky. Obviously someone is gaining something from the Willows closing but who? It's obviously not for the good of the community. The Willows has been there for ages now so how can the usage stipulations have changed? Totally out of order. All of those involved should be ashamed of themselves.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (4th Aug 2015 - 13:38:49)

I came across this from the thread "Willows Nursery - Parish Council update" the first post being made by Cllr Jane Ives (12th Nov 2014 23:46:21):

The parish council have issued a statement regarding the building currently occupied by The Willows Nursery. This can be found on the front page of the parish council website (link to the left), or by clicking on the link below.

bramshottandliphook-pc.gov.uk

I would just add that we are bound by our standing orders and any action we wish to take has to be approved by one of our committees or by the full council.


So where is the approval for the eviction of the Willows Nursery by a committee or the full council published. Not on their website anywhere. Cant see the statement mentioned by Cllr Ives either, so it appears to have been taken down.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (4th Aug 2015 - 17:17:54)

My children were due to start at the Willows in September. I was told the building was going to be renovated during the summer break. I don't understand how the trustees or parish council can verbally agree to the Willows staying. Then go back on their word. Is this even legal? It's a verbal contract. Surely there's someone in the community, in the legal profession, that can help the Willows try to fight this? We just can't let this happen. It absolutely stinks. Telling The Willows they could stay. They had arranged builders to start the renovations, insurance etc and all the while the parish council and trustees, were waiting until they'd closed for summer before dropping this bullshit bombshell.

To demolished the building it's going to cost us taxpayers a lot of money. Why? What are they going to gain? There must be more to this or why have they gone to so much effort to get the building? Just to demolish it! More development potentially? Whatever is going on it's fishy.

Apart from potential legal action against the trustees and parish council. The only other thing that might help is by contacting our local MP Damian Hinds. We need the Willows. Please help.

Damian Hinds | MP for East Hampshire - www.damianhinds.com

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- john (4th Aug 2015 - 18:16:54)

From the PC website, it is my understanding the building was first built and then used in line with the aims of the charity as a sports pavillion. It was then rented out to the British Legion, and then rented out to the owners of the Willows Nursery. The War Memorial Recreation Ground Trustees own the building, the Parish Council does not.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (5th Aug 2015 - 07:52:07)

My understanding (I am waiting for clarification from Parish Council and Charities Commission) is the Rec is owned by a Charity, the Parish Council are the "Custodian Trustees" therefore bound by the aims of the Charity when it was set up, some considerable time ago. One way forward when all the information is available to us may be to challenge the interpretation by the PC and the relevance of the aims in 2015.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (5th Aug 2015 - 09:06:16)

The Willows has been running since 2001. Yet now they've notice that the deeds don't cover usage for a preschool. What about the last 14 years? Ridiculous. The people behind this new move to close the Willows want investigating or something. It just doesn't make sense. Having the Willows there will make money and help the community, which is has done happily for the last 14years. Yet they want to use tax payers hard earned money to demolish a building that was going to be and still can be renovated by the Willows.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Trustees of Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground (5th Aug 2015 - 09:10:41)

Further information on the Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground Trust can be found on the parish council website by using this link:

bramshottandliphook-pc.gov.uk/general-information/custodian-trustees

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Simon (5th Aug 2015 - 09:12:23)

This is ridiculous! They are sneaky, conniving people who actually don't know the needs of the community!

What's going to happen to these children that need there vital early years of education? What's going to happen when there will be more demand for childcare with growth to the village?

Everyone against the willows disgust me! I hope you feel the full wrath of the public. You are incapable of solving simple problems and definitely should not have been put on any sort of council.

If you would like a (sneaky) meeting I would happily turn up and tell you more of how I feel so please feel free to reply.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Finchie (5th Aug 2015 - 11:57:13)

This makes my blood boil ....

Don't be taken in by the "official" response from the "trustees of Bramshott War Memorial Recreational Committee" as it is the Parish Council. I wouldn't be so ignorant as to say both one in the same, poachers and gamekeepers, as that would be overstepping the mark and I'm not sure what is being poached or game kept - just feels like it ! Gut feel it's the same people behind housing expansion - with no thought of capacity of nursery education !!!

They are doing their job as they are ensuring the "building meets legal legislative requirements", however my issue is the way this has been done. Before being brutally unfair, I do know the council was very active last year in trying to find alternative locations so I sincerely HOPE I am being grossly unfair and there is a cunning plan for an alternative location that we don't know about. Not holding my breath though.

Charities are regulated by the Charity Commission who can help us with two key areas (out of 5 or 6 so a big proportion). I think the current trustees are failing
- the trustees are not diverse
- they don't have an effective means of communicating and consulting with the community

We can bitch and moan about it but the real issue is that no-one is prepared to step forward and make change, as our recent elections have proven ! Unfortunately (embarrassingly), I am also in that camp being vocal but not putting "my money where my mouth is" but would support any new blood who wants to step forward and effect change ...

This will take a while to solve for the longer term for the community
- First step here would be involving the Charity Commission ....
- Second step would be the right folks involved (not sure who was involved in the recent Liphook Sports Day - that is the committee in my book !!!!!)

Step forward, your "village" needs you...

Cheery cheers (as it's been a while), Finchie

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (5th Aug 2015 - 12:05:12)

Have heard back today from the Parish Council.

The Trustee that we need to talk to is Mr Croucher - maybe we can ask for an "Open Meeting" to discuss this matter and be able to see the original remit that the Charity set up, Mr Croucher's correspondence with the Charity Commission that led to his decision to demolish the building etc?

I am happy to request a meeting and to post on this Forum any reply I get.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (5th Aug 2015 - 16:11:36)

Bramshott War Memorial trustees obviously can't be trusted!

The site must be in line for development. Be interesting to know if Mr Croucher or any of the trustees have had or have any nice holidays coming up or have recently come into some money!!!

An open meeting would be great, if you can get one arranged. Not only for parents of children at the Willows but for any residents who would be affected if that site is up for development. Which is looking pretty likely!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- john (5th Aug 2015 - 18:52:22)

I do believe on a previous thread, when closure of the Willows was mentioned on here last Autumn that the other Nurseries in Liphook did say they had spaces left, obviously the situation may have changed but it is worth checking first. I think there are at least 3 or 4 others in Liphook?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (5th Aug 2015 - 19:00:25)

I would me and my husband would come to any meeting or meetings
This isn't fair . It's not fair on the children
It's not fair on the women ( teachers ) whom run this
It leaves them unemployed not only this it leaves my boy out of nursery
What the heck this is education not just some book club oh my I really don't know how this is even happening
I'm so upset and sad
My husband is really annoyed
We feel it's disgusting behaviour
And feel what what type of area have we moved too .
Being new residents my little boy went to this nursery last year
I'm so proud of the willows and how my little boy isn't that shy no more
They really have helped him
And to send him to another nursery that will send him backwards again as he be shy again in a new place new teachers and new environment
Well I'm not having it
Where we used to live this wouldn't happen as it's a head strong community even if something like this would of happened we Would of fought it somehow and won
I don't care what anyone says this nursery needs to be run somewhere else or to re open the willows and get work done on it straight away
What if work was started on what will it get ball dozed
I think we should stand unite and stop this

Meeting please and meeting with the idiots that have done this.
Maybe you should meet all the lovely children that go to this nursery
Maybe that would help . I haven't told my child his not going to the willows no more I haven't the heart to do it .

How many nurserys we got in liphook three and heading to two.

I'm very surprised that no one no one from the communitiy has offered any place for the willows to carry on
Disgusting no community spirit
No one has come forward oh I forgot though there's not much about around liphook though
But even still I mentioned a few places too
Absolute disgusts me . Started nursery my boy did October his come on really well bearing in mind we left family n friends behind and the nursery have really bought him out his shell
Why the hell do I want to go anywhere else . The teachers are excellent I cannot express how much ....... I really cannot they are outstanding
Well done the willows for all the help you have given my son
We won't give up without a fight
WILLOWS MUST STAY OPEN PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (5th Aug 2015 - 20:54:00)

Just had a look at the bramshott and liphook parish council website. How can Mr Croucher have had a say in the Willows building being demolish when he isn't even a committee member for the recreation ground. Mr Croucher looks after finance and planning.





Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Mrs D Smith (5th Aug 2015 - 21:02:57)

Just reading about the nursery
This is terrible is there any other place in liphook that can be used
Can anyone not step up to rent there building out
Whether it be a church or something ? Even for a few months till they find somewhere permanent maybe

Where is the liphook help and spirit and offers for renting another place
Even if these places cannot be rented out
Why not ? Why not it's not for a book club etc it's for children's education

The British legion was given a ten year lease to my understanding
So why can't the willows when it's for a nursery ?

So unfair and the way they have done it waiting till the children broke up for summer .

So please if you are a owner of somewhere and do not rent
Why don't you put that aside and do the right thing by helping
Even if say it's not Monday to Friday and compromise on just three days maybe better than nothing for those children
Who will miss out on a good nursery .
Besides all of that there are only another two nurserys in liphook
So how will this work ?


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Anna@Griggs Green (5th Aug 2015 - 21:05:47)

For what it is worth, I just wanted to register my whole hearted support to Willows Nursery. We are moving back to Liphook in a few weeks having been away from the village for 18 months. We were absolutely delighted when we registered our 3 year old at Willows a few months ago. As soon as we set foot in the door it was clear what a lovely, warm, comfortable, educational and fun environment the staff had created. So I am obviously shocked and saddened to hear that they are yet again facing the threat of closure. Even worse for this news to arrive just a month before term begins.

If there is anything I can do, as a parent, as well as a member of the Liphook community then I gladly will. I do not know all the specifics of the lease agreements and I am sure that these things are always more complicated that they seem. But at the heart of all of this we must remember that there is a lovely nursery in our village, staffed by amazing people who give lots of our little people safety and security when they are away from their parents. Surely that must be worth preserving?

The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (6th Aug 2015 - 07:27:22)

Please Sign The Willows Nursery School Petition

www.change.org/p/bramshott-bramshott-and-liphook-parish-council-save-the-willows-nursery-school

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (6th Aug 2015 - 09:07:00)

Have posted on a different thread a petition
So I'm hoping may will see this and will sign and share
I post it here too

www.change.org/p/bramshott-bramshott-and-liphook-parish-council-save-the-willows-nursery-school

Thanks

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (6th Aug 2015 - 11:47:22)

Great work on starting a petition Debbie. I've signed and shared on a couple of Facebook groups. Hope you don't mind. Really hope they get enough support to save the Willows. Good luck.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- James G (6th Aug 2015 - 12:09:37)

So the pavilion was built in 1977, used as a Youth Club, Royal British Legion and a Nursery. None of which are strictly recreation.

Charities can change their governing documents to reflect changes over time, it is unlikely that in 1920 the residents of Bramshott and Liphook who paid for the rec, could have foreseen the need for provision of private childcare in the community.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/changing-your-charitys-governing-document-cc36

Now the council want to demolish the building because it is not being used for recreation.

Why do the trustees not just change the charity’s governing document to allow for the pavilion to be used for non recreational use. They could just check with the charities commission to see if ACCOMMODATION/HOUSING covers the current use anyway.

They could then give the willows a longer lease and they could invest in the upkeep of the building preserving it for the community in the future. The income from the rent would benefit the charity.

The only valid and reasonable reason for turfing the willows out would be if there was a community sports team wanting to lease the pavilion, which there is not as it is to be demolished, removing the facility from the community forever.

There are 38 years of precedence for this building not being used for recreation, and it has never been used for recreation. So I can't see the charities commission refusing a change in the governing document.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (6th Aug 2015 - 12:37:20)

There's been so much talk about the Willows closing and then it was saved. This thread is based on the original message from the Willows stating it's staying open. Maybe people aren't aware it's being closed and haven't bothered to look at the post further down. Does anyone think it's worth posting a brand new thread. Save the Willows or trustees gone back on word, Willows being closed down. Anything to help raise awareness.

I have added a note to the top of this thread.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (6th Aug 2015 - 12:58:04)

Please sign the petition if you live in liphook or surrounding areas even if you don't it's for a good cause as it's our children's nursery and education in liphook
Innocent children will miss out on this fabulous run nursery by lovely teachers that are really trying to keep it going
So please sign thank you

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Eb (6th Aug 2015 - 13:49:27)

Just wondered has anyone from the willows commented yet, in case they had any plans on how we can help

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (6th Aug 2015 - 14:14:29)

Just reading the liphook herald. Front page story. Willows have actually been evicted. Even a district councillor was shocked by the decision and is interested to see what is proposed for the site next. I'm in total shock that the trustees have been able to get away with this. Would be great to hear from the Willows. Although it's looking doubtful anyone can help now.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (6th Aug 2015 - 14:33:06)

August 10. 7.30 rec meeting at liphook peak centre open to the public go along and have your say

THE WILLOWS NEED YOU

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (6th Aug 2015 - 14:49:32)

This is brilliant. Maybe there's still hope. Good work. I'll be there.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Dee (6th Aug 2015 - 15:28:01)

Signed. Good luck

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (6th Aug 2015 - 15:35:20)

The Recreation Committee meeting is in the Haskell Centre starting at 7.30 pm (not the Peak Centre). I see that the agenda for the meeting has not been put on the front of the Parish Council's website like all other meetings have. Obviously trying to keep it a secret, I wonder why!

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (6th Aug 2015 - 16:43:09)

Hi there thank you so much for your support
Thank you
Much appreciated :)))


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Editor (6th Aug 2015 - 16:54:07)

bramshottandliphook-pc.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Rec-Agenda-10-August-2015.pdf

Note - Recreation refers generically to all recreational activities not specifically the War Memorial ground. The responsibility for the Pavilion building rests with the Trustees of the War Memorial Trust.

YOU ARE HEREBY SUMMONED TO A MEETING OF THE RECREATION COMMITTEE AT 7.30 PM IN THE HASKELL CENTRE, MIDHURST ROAD, LIPHOOK, ON MONDAY 10 AUGUST 2015

1. CHAIRMAN’S ANNOUNCEMENTS

2. APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE

3. DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST

4. MINUTES OF THE MEETING
To approve the minutes of the meeting held on 08 June 2015

5. MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES - (for information only)

6. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION SESSION
Public Questions.
Public Participation.

7. REPORTS

8. ALLOTMENT VISIT

9. INCREASE TO ALLOTMENT RENTS

10. RISK ASSESSMENT OF PARISH COUNCIL PROPERTIES

11. SPORTS DAY FEEDBACK

12. RECREATION GROUNDS VISIT

13. LITTER PICK

14. REQUEST TO HOLD EXERCISE CLASS ON THE VILLAGE GREEN

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (6th Aug 2015 - 17:16:31)

I'm not giving up on this I will keep on and on
This is not fair and not fair on having just two nurserys around here
It's education not something worthless

My little boy will be really upset reason why I'm not going to tell him at the moment

Please help and sign the petition thank you so much

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (6th Aug 2015 - 17:48:24)

I have just looked at the Parish Council Standing Orders which you can find on their website which show that the Recreation Committee are:

"To manage all Parish Council open space, sports and recreational facilities within the Parish."

Sorry, but it is the Recreation Committee which has responsibility for all, and that means all, the facilities on the Recreation Ground including the building that has been called the pavilion, the Beacon Building or the British Legion Hut or whatever seems to be flavour of the day. That is what the Parish Council themselves have published"!!!!!!!!!

It was the Recreation Committee under ex Councillor Robinson that made the decision to evict the Willows in the first place! It was Councillor Croucher who made Councillor Robinson answer the questions about the Willows at the meeting that I and many others went to in October last year. That wasn't a Trustees meeting, it was a Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council Meeting.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Kat (6th Aug 2015 - 18:08:46)

Debbie, I have told all my friends and they are passing it on. Well done for setting this up.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Hannah (6th Aug 2015 - 18:19:39)

Debbie,

This petition has been put on the 'save the willows' Facebook page which I set up for my mum, Jackie and Jill last year.
Hopefully it will boost signatures.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Jaimie (6th Aug 2015 - 19:34:40)

Very sad situation that I hope can be sorted out.

Petition signed!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Marian (6th Aug 2015 - 20:04:37)

As a mother and grandmother I am very concerned about the effect closing The Willows nursery will have on the children who are down to attend in September and indeed children of all those houses which are to be built in Liphook. I find it ironic in a week that is featuring our secondary school Bohunt in a Chinese educational experiment that the Parish Council are closing one of only three nursery schools in this village.

I am not saying that the Chinese system is the right one - but the Chinese do value education right the way through the age spectrum. Perhaps there are two sides to the argument for making this closure - but surely a solution must be found to enable this first class nursery to continue.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (6th Aug 2015 - 20:42:55)

I have just picked up the Herald and read PAGE 3 about the eviction of the Willows. The revelations are astonishing but they come from the letters between the Parish Council and the Willows. Awful behaviour from Councillors Croucher, Jerrard and Maroney and they should resign forthwith. We must save the Willows.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Jess (6th Aug 2015 - 21:14:35)

signed and shared, we will fight this all the way! My two children love the willows and the fabulous ladies there. Sneaky sly and underhand, they have happily leased the building to the willows for 14 years but clearly a more lucrative deal for them takes priority over our children's education!

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (6th Aug 2015 - 23:52:55)


Hi there yep found the facebook page so I put my petition on there 😄 my friend whom set up my petition asked if the willows had any Facebook groups I said I wouldn't know ( I'm not on there a lot )
And we had found the save the willows I think there's two pages
So I put the link on them both
I really hope you didn't mind Hannah

Just trying to help :)

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (7th Aug 2015 - 13:47:57)

I totally agree these councillors need to stand down. It's going to cost £10k to demolish the Beacons building. The Willows brings in an income and serves the community. What are these people playing at. GET THEM OUT. If this goes through and the Beacons get demolished. What's next?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (7th Aug 2015 - 16:00:58)

Having watched South Today at 1.30 pm when The Willows Nursery featured I think that, leaving aside all the emotional and understandable feelings of outrage being demonstrated on Liphook Talkback, the most incomprehensible element that has emerged is WHY after fourteen and half years have the Trustees/Parish Councillors/Charity Commission now decided to interpret the rules governing the use of the building used by The Willows in the way they have.

Ergo that the building should only be used for "recreational" and not "educational" purposes. It could be argued that children below school age attending a nursery school are there for "recreational" purposes as well as "educational". After all the main reason parents send their children to pre-school nurseries is so that they can learn to interact with other children of their age and to prepare them for school.

The children are also able to have fun, play games and enjoy themselves with other children. In this situation there is a fine line between education and recreation and one I think that any intelligent person would deem it acceptable to cross.

In my opinion there seems to be a hidden agenda somewhere as the powers that be tried to close and thereby evict The Willows back in the Autumn of last year, on very short notice and the reason given was that the building was deemed unsafe – there was no talk of the building being used for purposes for which it was not intended.

However because of the resultant outcry and after discussion and negotiation with the owners of the nursery to find an acceptable solution, a compromise was reached and it was decided that the eviction notice should be rescinded. Now the goal posts have been changed again and I for one am smelling a very large and unsavoury rat!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- liz (7th Aug 2015 - 16:23:13)

Val

Sounds like a jobsworth at the Charity Commission. Is it worth approaching them directly with your very clearly made points or has that been done? If they agree to continue to interpret the rules more broadly and the Trustees still dig their heels in then you will have more idea where the problem lies!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (7th Aug 2015 - 16:51:49)

Very good points Val.

First it was that the building was unsafe and couldn't be insured. Yet the Willows were able to get insurance. Now the deeds/ charity commission state it can't be used as a preschool. Well get the deeds changed then.

This building was brought by the people, for the people to use. It was built for a purpose not to be demolished. It's part of our Liphook heritage and history. These trustees shouldn't have the final say. It's disgusting the bully boy tactics they're using.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (7th Aug 2015 - 16:55:48)

Thank you Liz - excellent advice.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- M Green (7th Aug 2015 - 17:14:19)

Please sign people. We need to do everything to save the Willows.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Lucy (7th Aug 2015 - 18:42:24)

Just a thought but is there any space at the millennium centre or the scout/guide Hall for the nursery to go to? Both my children went to this amazing nursery. I can't believe there is nowhere for them to go to, even if it opened part time.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (7th Aug 2015 - 20:00:45)

Lucy, I believe that if the Willows were able to use the scouts facilities it could only be a short term fix. Long term there doesn't seem to be any other options. Plus there's no good reason for demolishing the building. All the reasons these despicable trustees have given have been rubbish. First the building was too old and couldn't be insured. The Willows managed to get insurance, money for renovations and builders ready to start. Then the trustees found a loophole that states in the deeds the building can't be used as a preschool. Only recreation facilities. It's been trading for well over 14 years. We need to get the deeds amended. The community needs to stand up to these councillors. They need to stand down. They clearly don't have the communities welfare at the heart of their agendas.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (7th Aug 2015 - 21:50:17)

I hope that at the meeting on the 10th I get more than "the hand of Croucher" which is all we got at the last meeting to discuss the Willows position. I have made a request for a specific meeting with Mr Croucher in his position of Custodian Trustee - not Councillor with a view to him producing the documents relating to the Charity Commission's advice, on which he acted. What advice was he seeking, what information did he provide and more importantly what request to amend the aims of the Charity to reflect the community needs in 2015 and the timescale of these requests. Do the Trustees hold open meeting? can we attend and are they documented etc........... no reply so far

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (7th Aug 2015 - 23:31:28)

I THINK MR Croucher and MR Maroney and MR Jerrard ARE THINKING WHAT TO DO TO GET OUT OF THIS BIG HOLE THEY HAVE DUG FOR THEMSEVES

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (8th Aug 2015 - 08:34:11)

Shauna,

Apparently the building not being allowed to be used as a preschool came to light last year. Again another sly move on behalf of these trustees, not bringing this to light earlier. The usage obviously can be amended, plus we already know that the building can be insured. They were just hoping that the Willows and everyone else would give up if there wasn't enough time to do anything before the start of the next term. They underestimate the local community. We need to keep fighting to save the Willows but we also need to start pushing to get these trustees out.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- john (8th Aug 2015 - 10:34:14)

Sorry to be pedantic but it was only the land which was paid for by public subscription not the buildings they came much later. The building was first built as a sports pavilion.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (8th Aug 2015 - 11:56:15)


Please sign everyone

Help me to reach my target of 500 or more signs please
I'm half way there :) help from friends and family and people in Liphook sharing also etc

Thank you all :) now let's reach 500 or more
That target I would like to reach please

As I say we are half way there 😃😃

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- A. Ryan (8th Aug 2015 - 12:35:57)

With such a simple thing as knowing what a building can and can not be used for one must beg the question as to the incompetence of the Trustees, which some have ascertained to be the Parish Council. It certainly appears they are trying to find any reason to close the Willows down, and to wait until the summer holidays seems to smack of a lack of compassion and cowardice, and one would certainly like to know their motives. The more I see of this Council the more I despair for Liphook.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (8th Aug 2015 - 15:11:29)

John, does it matter when the buildings came or their usage back then? Not sure I get the point of your post. It's been run as a preschool for over 14years now. The community needs this resource. The trustees do not own this building. They shouldn't get to do what they personally want with it. That's not how things are supposed to work. They are there to be trusted to do what's right for the building and the community that they work on the behalf of. Why would people have got together to pay for a building to be built, just for it to be demolished?

A. Ryan, totally agree with all the points you made!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- maureen (8th Aug 2015 - 15:40:50)

On the minutes of the Parish Council 27th April 2015 there is mention in paragraph "19" " That the Council supports carrying out a feasability study on the financial and organisational benefits of selling or leasing out the Haskell Centre and moving the Parish Office to Millennium Hall to release funds to help finance refurbishments of the Millennium Centre." Not sure if this is going ahead but wondered if the Willows could negotiate anything even if as a temporary measure until the Willows Building is repaired .Just a thought.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (8th Aug 2015 - 18:00:35)

Maureen,

The trustees went back on their word. Renovations on the Willows were due to start over the summer holidays but the underhand trustees/ parish councillors decided to serve the Willows an eviction notice at the end of July. They plan to demolish the Beacons building asap. At the cost of £10k to the tax payers. Disgusting. We need to try and stop this.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- A. Ryan (8th Aug 2015 - 19:55:18)

Where did the trustees get this £10k figure from? What company are doing the demolition, and did they get quotes ?
As tax payers Liphook should have more say in this than people standing for Council who have a short life span as Councillors, and have no idea of Liphooks heritage .

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Concerned parent (8th Aug 2015 - 21:54:37)

This is terrible news that is continuing to circulate, and yes I do feel for the staff, and of course the children who attend and who are due to attend but what I don't understand, irrelevant to whoever has lied to who, or given false information to whoever, is that near on a year ago on this exact same site that we all like to view, was a post stating that the building was in need of desperate repair......now I am a parent of two older children, and just need to make this point clear.....I would not want my child in an unsafe building, and I say unsafe, as this was a word used back in a thread in October 2014, but yet all these parents chose to continue to let their child/children enter this building and spend a number of hours there.......Regardless of what the building is to be used for and what.....my point is...why put or send children into an unsafe building or do all these people forget what they wrote all those months back.....anyway, as I say very sad news for all.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (8th Aug 2015 - 22:03:45)

A. Ryan that figure hasn't come from the trustees. I doubt they would want people knowing it's going to cost that much.

There's too much history in that building just to demolish it. Especially when there were funds already in place to renovate. This situation as absolutely crazy.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (9th Aug 2015 - 01:03:28)

THIS BUILDING IS NOT UNSAFE IT JUST WANTS A BIT OF TLC HERE AND THERE ITS GOOD FOR 50 YEARS OR MORE THERE SEEMS TO BE 3 COUNCILLORS RUNNING THIS COUNCIL WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 9 COUNCILLORS DO THEY NOT HAVE A SAY IN THIS ?

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (9th Aug 2015 - 07:36:36)


Just to let you all know that the petition is still up and running with over 250 signatures now it's doing really well
So over half way to reaching 500 . Surely there are more people on this site that feel this is appalling ? To have this nursery taken it's going to be dreadful what about the other two nurserys they be ok taking in the maximum of children they prob already filled up
So what happens to the rest of them ?
Doesn't nobody care ?

The schools are already filled up around here
There's a need for the willows to stay open
Not just for my child at the moment
But for other little ones in the near future

Please help and sign our petition ... Thank you

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- beth (9th Aug 2015 - 12:51:31)

Concerned parent – Obviously no decent parent would want to send their child to a building that isn't safe. You shouldn't believe the propaganda you have read or heard. The building is perfectly safe and insurable but if the building was unsafe, which it isn't. Then yet again it's only the trustees who are to blame for not maintaining the building properly over the years. The Willows have the money and resource to renovate this building. Everything should be done to make this happen. Not only to save the Willows but to save this building for the Liphook community. In which is was originally built.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Concerned parent (9th Aug 2015 - 13:20:24)

Apologies if I've read wrong, but as I say on another thread dated back nearly a year ago, parents were made aware that the building needed substantial repair to make it safe. On viewing photographs that were taken and displayed (by a surveyor) for all to see, I recall rotting wood, which I believe is the main structure of the building, and another concerning issue to me was the damp problem they seemed to have. If these issues were raised so long ago, and funds available for the repairs, why weren't they done a year ago? I'm sure it can't be public money?! Or am i wrong, did money from my pocket go towards this so called fund they have, if they do have this money, where is it now?! And what is going to be done with it? I believe we should be a fair community, so if they have been given funds, why can't the other 2 nurseries of the community be given funds too?! Just a question I'm sure many local businesses would like the answer to....
Again reading another post on this website, only 4 weeks ago, I believe Jan (co owner) said that The willows would be open as normal in September, surely they knew this was not for certain.....why continue to accept more children if this issue was still up in the air?! As I have said before I do feel very sorry for this nursery and wish them all the best in the future.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- kayleigh (9th Aug 2015 - 14:09:36)

dear concerned parent,

if you buy the herald from this week there is a statement with a LOT more information ALL about the willows and where the 'funds' are from...

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- john (9th Aug 2015 - 16:38:13)

Hi the building is owned by the charitable trust. The trustees decide the future of the building, the trust has no separate income other than what rents are recieved from the while recreation ground. The Parish Councillors are the trustees, and administer the income from rents for maintenance of the whole of the recreation ground not just the building which the Willows rented part of. The outside areas also have to be maintained. The Willows are a private business not owned by the Parish Council, taking income from parents and the government who fund the childcare voucher system for the 16 hour free nursery education available to all 3year old children. I for one would not want my children at risk in an unisurable building, as has been the case for some months now. Unfortunately Ofsted have no say in inspection of whether the premises are suitable but we have only seen the appalling state of the outside, what is the inside like?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (9th Aug 2015 - 17:22:20)

Concerned parent, really?! What funds are you talking about? You seem to have a lot of knowledge on this subject, given your just a concern local parent. Firstly there's not enough nursery provision for the children already in the village. Let alone for any of the development planned. Secondly the Willows have raised virtually all the funds themselves for the renovations required. It's going to cost more of 'your' money to demolish the building. Why would anyone prefer that as an option? You obviously don't have all the facts. Or your getting them from one of the not so lovely trustees involved. Fact is if the trustees had maintained the building properly in the first place it wouldn't need renovations.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- A. Ryan (9th Aug 2015 - 18:16:45)

The Parish Councillors as Trustees should have used our money wisely, instead of money used on litigation. It should have been used on projects like this.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (9th Aug 2015 - 18:58:47)

John,

I think you are failing to understand the trustees do not personally own the Beacons building. They are part of a trust set up to look after & manage it. They clearly didn't look after the building and that was definitely their responsibility. Not the Willows. Answer me this John, do you think the people who originally donated the Beacons building, would have built it just to see it demolished years later?

The trustees also need to stop scare mongering by stating that the building was unsafe and couldn't be insured. That's a lie. The Willows had insurance and could get insurance, much to the dismay of the trustees but I'm sure that you already know that.

Now this utter nonsense about the charity commission and wrong usage. Get the deeds changed then and save the building. It can be done. The trustees clearly just want this building demolished. Why?

If they do demolish the Beacons under the ground of wrong usage. I'd be encouraging the Willows to seek legal advice to look into what the trustees owe them for lost revenue. Based on letting them start up a business, waste time and money building up their business when it shouldn't have even be operating from the venue in the first place. Someone needs to be held accountable.

Everything about this stinks.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (9th Aug 2015 - 19:03:04)

John and concerned parent,

Also for your information the inside of the part of the building the Willows used. Was lovely. A very welcoming, warm and friendly place. Where parents of at least 40 children wanted to send their children to next term.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (9th Aug 2015 - 20:15:27)

Well said A. Ryan. I'm pretty sure that I've seen you reply on other threads. You always make a lot of sense. You appear to be very knowledgeable and a genuinely nice person. I think you'd make a great councillor. Ever thought about running? We could do with finding replacements for the current cowboys in charge.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- john (9th Aug 2015 - 21:15:21)

I am not suggesting for one minute the trustees personally own the building. The Charity does. The trustees change each time a councillor does. The trustees 15 years ago were totally different. You could look up their names, they are the ones to sue if they got it muddled 15 years ago. A lot of this is becoming hearsay and rumour with different figures bandied about.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (9th Aug 2015 - 22:09:01)

You didn't answer my question John. Do you think the kind people who originally donated the Beacons building, would have wanted it demolished in years to come?

It's a shame that the original trustees aren't still in power. Then this probably wouldn't even be an issue. Usage wasn't an issue then because they weren't bunch of complete jobsworths.

WHY DID THE TRUSTEES WAIT UNTIL THE SCHOOL HOLIDAYS TO SERVE THE EVICTION NOTICE?

WHY HAVEN'T THEY APPLIED TO GET THE DEEDS/ USAGE AMENDED?

WHY ARE THEY SO EAGER TO DEMOLISH THIS BUILDING?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (10th Aug 2015 - 12:14:46)

If the trust set up to look after the Beacons building has let it get into such a state of disrepair. That it needs total renovation. Should they be allowed to make the decision to have it demolished? Seems very wrong to me. Why are these trustees not doing everything in their power, to help the Willows by getting the deeds amended to change the usage stipulations? This building does not need to be demolished. It can be saved and needs to be.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- A. Ryan (10th Aug 2015 - 13:20:09)

Thank you M Green, I had thought about it, and did get the papers, but with so much vitriol bandied about by some people it did rather put me off.
Having been to some of the Council meetings they do all appear to be singing from the same songsheet, and one that is not necessarily the best tune for Liphook.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (10th Aug 2015 - 14:13:32)

I have e mailed Cllr Croucher and asked for the following information:

The Parish Council is the corporate trustee and as such they have to comply with charity law and uphold the objects of the trust laid down by the original benefactors

I understand this statement in theory, but in practice could the trustees not apply to the Charity Commission to amend the original objects of the trust to reflect the COMMUNITY NEEDS in 2015?

On advice from the Charity Commission this (Long Term Lease) could not be done within the terms of the current deeds as they do not allow for nursery education provision


The CURRENT DEEDS is the operative part of this statement, they could be changed, and also where in the original deeds did it allow for a long term lease for the British Legion?

Following on from the point above, can you release the correspondence you have had with the Charity Commission, the timeline and the information you provided would be of great interest, was the Willow School asked to make any representation to the Charity Commission to support their role in providing for the community?

Financial Statement:

Does the Trust have the funds to demolish the building?

How will the Trust make up the shortfall in funds without the rent from The Willows?

It would be nice to have some answers or at the very least the courtesy of an acknowledgement

Thanks
Shauna

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (10th Aug 2015 - 14:40:02)

Great work Shauna!!! They definitely can get the deeds amended if they want.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (10th Aug 2015 - 16:45:29)

I'd also like to know where Councillor Croucher suggests the 40 children due to start at the Willows are going to go in September? Madhatters is full and little cherubs can only take 26 but already have children on their books. That leaves a lot of children with no local preschool facility. Then hundreds of new homes being built. We need more preschools than Liphook had. To get rid of one of the existing one is utterly ridiculous.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (10th Aug 2015 - 21:02:14)

Just got home from an "informal meeting", which wasn't advertised - with the Trustees and interested parties, including the ladies fro The Willows. The trustees have a problem with the Willows owners asking for a commitment of a 5-7 year operating licence if they spend £40k of their own money to make the building safe and insurable.

Scenario 1: Favoured by the Trustees, close the nursery, demolish the building.
Result: loss of revenue, £40k+ over 5 years, £10k in demolition costs, loss of 30+ nursery places.

Scenario 2: Favoured by everyone else, give a guarantee of a 12 month renewable operating licence, barring the one obstacle of a purely "recreational group" requesting use of the building, if this was to happen (unlikely) draw up a pay back clause on the licence, pro rata to their expense to be refundable should these circumstances arise. If this was not in place it would contravene the Charity's primary use ( but this could be changed with the Charity Commission if there was the will to do so by the Trustees)
Result: Nursery carries on as before, Trustees continue to get the rent and everyone is happy!!!

Now that seems simple...............

A lot of financial figures here, but how much rent has the Willows been paying per year ?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (10th Aug 2015 - 21:42:40)

If only Cllr/Trustee Croucher would answer my requests I could tell you!! Have written to the Charity Commission for their advice on how to get this information as the Trustees are not forthcoming......

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- debbie (10th Aug 2015 - 23:05:26)

If you haven't already done so please sign the online
Petition

We need three nurserys in Liphook not just two
So please sign it's all about the community and the children in our community you guys can make a difference

Use the link above to sign :)

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (10th Aug 2015 - 23:22:58)

I think it's outrageous that some couldn't speak in the meeting or was basically told to be quiet not talk bearing in mind the trustees knew that person was right
I didn't like the fact that I had said where are our children suppose to go ? And they all said that they were looking and trying to find places
Mmmmm wrong again you mean we as parents and the teachers have been looking and ringing up places .
They made it seem they were so concerned but they are not
Let's face it they don't care they don't need to give two hoots being they not got children that need a nursery here ( otherwise it maybe a different ball game and maybe they would understand for 5 MINS
All of Liphook are behind us just goes to show with the petitions we have whether online or paper ones
It seems to me they just cannot be bothered and want to build something there
And also the answer to the question about giving the willows free rent for a year I think it's reasonable and yes I think Liphook would agree on that . My husband pays about a grand a month in taxes and obviously we pay
Our council tax so I think it should come out if our council tax
Would the local people be interested in that ? If it came to it to help with the willows rent for a year ( just saying )
That would be fab now wouldn't it

Oh and also would there be any one willing if needed to help do the nursery up even though there's a builder involved already but if it came to it that we only had three days to open up we prob need more help
Any businesses willing to help
Would of been great to get DIY SOS down here for such a great cause :)))
Anyway my husband said he would help in anyway he could and so would I :) . Also he would stand by the willows on free rent for a year 😁😁
And too right too .

Keep up signing that petition thank you for reading my post


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (10th Aug 2015 - 23:54:54)

I also attended the meeting. I tried to go in with an open mind. Unfortunately I was bitterly disappointed. I personally feel the whole meeting was a complete farce. With the exception of the one councillor. The others clearly have zero plans to help save the Beacons building or help the Willows.

I'm also sure I heard councillor Barbara Easton say that any proposal the Willows made would have to be agreed by ALL the trustees. Although I could be wrong. It was difficult to understand what she was saying, in between the private notes and whispering she kept doing with the other trustees during the meeting. If this is the case, there's no way they're all going to agree to a proposal from the Willows.

Also Shauna I heard that it's going to cost more like £30k to demolish the Beacons. Even if this isn't the exact figure, surely this is something they need to consider. Seriously where is this money coming from? It was also very interesting to hear that the survey didn't recommend demolishing the building.

Then everybody who's seen Debbie's petition has signed it. That should speak volumes. I'm sure if it wasn't just her out canvassing on her own today. She'd have hundreds, if not thousands of signatures. The trustees need to wake up and smell the coffee. This issue is not going to go away.

I also hope they don't think we're stupid enough to forget they stated they have no plans to build a drop in centre in the place of the Beacons. Watch this space! Or should I say watch that space.








Re: The Willows Nursery School
- john (10th Aug 2015 - 23:58:47)

I too was at the meeting and did not think the ladies who ran the willows were in favour of paying for the repairs unless they had a guarentee that they. could in the building 7 years? which amounts to a commercial lease that they could then sell on? the members of the public who also offered to help pay for repairs are not going to get a share of the profits of the nursery are they in return ? I understand that they have been offered a Hampshire County Council Grant, for repairs, do they get given that money like a private business loan or is it a gift to the business?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (11th Aug 2015 - 08:51:34)

Of course you were at the meeting 'John' the grant is to help renovate the building. A building that has hardly been maintained over the years. Their rent money should not have been paying groundsmen wages. Some of it should have been put into maintaining the building. Shame on you councillors or trustees or whatever you want to be called.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Beth (11th Aug 2015 - 09:12:27)

The meeting last night was a disgrace. The trustees have poorly managed the Beacons building. Now they are using every trick in the book to get the Willows out. We need to start another petition calling for a vote of no confidence in certain trustees over the way this has been handled. I will start one today and personally make sure everyone in Liphook see it and I'm sure most people will sign. These people need to realise, people have had enough now and want them out

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (11th Aug 2015 - 09:47:03)

Happy to see someone is doing a petition to try and get these trustees out. Witnessing Councillor Croucher verbally attack a member of the public last night was uncomfortable to say the least. After so many years experience as a councillor, you would think he'd know how to conduct himself properly. I hope his name appears on this petition. I'll sign.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Natalie (11th Aug 2015 - 09:53:59)

I hope councillor Croucher and Easton will be on your petition Beth. They were both horrendous last night. They need to go. I'll help you canvas. I'm sure we can get lots of the parents of the Willows to help.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (11th Aug 2015 - 10:01:53)

John, if you were there, do please tell us all about the incident with Councillor Croucher nearly having a punch up with the man beside the door.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Kat (11th Aug 2015 - 10:12:43)

Great idea, and please let us know how we can help you canvass. I am sure there will be lots of people willing to help.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (11th Aug 2015 - 11:44:10)

Good question Kat. Very much doubt 'John' will give you an answer though, he doesn't seem very forcoming in answering questions. Just seems intent on trying to bad mouth the Willows. Failing to understand the Liphook community is fully behind the Willows and saving the Beacons but losing faith fast in our councillors/ trustees. Who have shown their true colours and can't be trusted.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (11th Aug 2015 - 12:01:10)

Hi all

Everyone in Liphook is all for the willows STAYING OPEN
they all for it :) . I have had a lot of feedback and signatures and I haven't knocked on all the houses in Liphook
That was a few hours for two days walking to various houses and getting good responses . I still have a lot of doors to knock on
It's not easy and it's hard work when doing it alone but it's something that may help the current situation

That man at the meeting omg what a carry on you should be ashamed whereas us adults were civil
I'm do glad my little boy was at home and that I didn't take him
As I was planning taking him as my husband wanted to def come . And no sitter . Anyhow being he worked a 12 hour shift he was gutted he couldn't make it and wanted to express his feelings in all of this

The committee or whom ever you call it if you can call them human beings without hearts most def apart from one lady were particularly rude
We should of bought the whole of Liphook to that meeting
Because tbh I think they think that Liphook doesn't care about where the children go etc but Liphook do.

And the men behind us huffing and puffing and tooting because the meeting about the willows carried on for longer and they were getting funny but excuse me you have had your time and it's time for the children now as they are young and need a nursery so I'm really sorry if we run over your time

Tbh my husband did read that the discussion about the recreation for sports shouldn't of been discussed that night
It should of been for the willows only
Think he read that somewhere .

I just hate all this and not knowing about the willows

Pull your fingers out and change the deeds over .
Like my husband said about the people years ago leaving the grounds to trustees would be disgusted and outraged if they knew . Obviously they can't as was years and years ago ( just saying ) what my husband was saying .

Disgusting it all is

Are you the trustees going to find my child a local nursery place
A nursery place which is a caring respectful environment which is really homely where my child loves . Can you ? There's no where to even build another nursery or to find any hall . So what was you on about last night saying about we been looking into places
Erm where's this then ? The nursery teachers have already phoned places
You tell us your making enquiries or have made enquiries but that's all lies
What else you been lying to us about ?

What are our children suppose to do ?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- A. Ryan (11th Aug 2015 - 12:36:08)

Having been to several Council meetings myself I would wholeheartedly say a complete overhaul of how these meetings are run is way overdue. Why these meetings are run in such a rigid and dictatorial manner when it involves choices being made for the good of a Parish and public input an absolute must is beyond me. It hasn't worked well in the past and is not working well now.
Any democratic process should involve the residents foremost, but this sadly seems not to be the case. The Councillors are there to support the Parish and it's residents, but the opposite seems to be the case with the rudeness of those Councillors telling people to be quiet.
I think the people of Liphook are finally beginning to wake up.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (11th Aug 2015 - 12:47:36)

It's clear from the meeting most of these trustees have their own agenda. They don't want to help the Willows. Can't remember her name but there was just the one newly appointed councillor who actually seemed to care. From what I heard at the end of the meeting, apparently councillor Barbara Easton was telling the other not so supportive trustees that the new lady councillor needed to be filled in as she didn't know enough. That the Beacons is getting demolished regardless. These trustees have already decided that the Beacons is going. I definitely heard councillor Barbara Easton state the Willows knew they had to leave a year ago. We all know that isn't true. Clear proof in my opinion the trustees had decided a year ago they wanted the Willows out.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (11th Aug 2015 - 12:54:54)

A. Ryan such a shame you decided against trying to become a councillor. Liphook definitely needs more people like you on the council. If the community does take stand and the current line up is given an overhaul would you consider standing? Please!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (11th Aug 2015 - 13:49:23)

As Cllr/Trustee Croucher will not reply to me, I have written to the Charity Commission to ask what backstory he gave them for them to give their advice that there wasn't a way to allow the Willows to continue operating. The information and the timeline might be interesting - I will let you know if I receive a reply

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (11th Aug 2015 - 14:27:46)

Shauna, the Willows couldn't have a 7 year lease based on the original deeds and their usage. That's what they said that the charities commission stated. Yet they also said last night that they could get the deeds amended but it would take too much time to allow the Willows to be up and running for September. As if they were really bothered. Who cares how much time it takes. This is exactly what they need to be getting done. The the Willows can lease for 7 years and the community is happy.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Lucy (11th Aug 2015 - 16:58:43)

I personally have not yet been asked to sign a petition and can honestly say that I will not be signing, the same as many others that I have spoken to.

Please don't get me wrong, I can completely understand that the owners will be upset as it is their business as will parents who had the children's names down for September. More notice should have been given.

However, I am certainly not happy for my tax to be spent on renovating the building. If the council were to put money into the Willows then they should give EVERY other business in the village the exact same money.

I have also heard that the Willows have only been paying £10 a day rent??? True or not I do not know. But if true, then no wonder no maintenance has been done on the building and with regards to the rent paying the groundsmen.....do the Willows not want the grass cut so their Children can play outside??

I certainly would not want my son going to nursery in an unsafe building that can not be insured.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (11th Aug 2015 - 17:11:21)


Tbh I really really want to know why the up keep of the building wasn't up kept by the trustees when the willows was paying rent etc

In the meeting last night they had said hang on wait for it light bulbs lol
Light bulbs came out of the money lol "light bulbs " now come on
Why wasn't the willows done up with the money ? How did it get into this state if the so called trustees were looking after it ?

Plus it had children in there so why wasn't it up kept
Last night was a joke we want you all out !!! Apart from the lovely lady at the end that had a heart and a brain but didn't know what the rest of them had been upto as the lady had been on her holidays

Poor her after the meeting !!!! Having to put up with there words even though she agreed with us a bit

Please change the deeds that's all we are asking of you of Liphook to do the right thing by us as parents and the children of Liphook community
Please please please .

I think my little one is trying to understand now that his nursery is closing down as he was walking around with my petition book today saying willows is closing down please sign my petition

Poor little boy I daren't tell him but he obviously knows something is wrong . Poor little boy :( so sad . I haven't the heart to tell him do the trustees ( so called ) want to tell our little children why they have no willows nursery this will be a def one to tell them in the near future

Can you imagine if the council or someone wanted to close down a school
Uproar or what there be well there's uproar now even thought it's a nursery
It's just as important

Please keep signing the petitions please

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (11th Aug 2015 - 17:16:38)

Lucy the Willows were going to pay for most of the renovations themselves.

It's going to cost around £30k to demolish this building. Virtually the same as to renovate but the tax payers will be picking up the full bill for this.

What a ridiculous thing to say about grass being cut, when people are going to lose their business and preschool for their children. I'm thinking the Willows would have preferred to cut the grass themselves and had their rent money put towards the building maintainance. Then we wouldn't even be having these discussions.

Feed this back to 'John', 'concerned parent' & anyone else in the parish council offices. Who I don't think anyone was expecting to sign the petition anyway. ; )

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Lucy (11th Aug 2015 - 17:18:31)

Wow Lucy! Great way to stir emotions. Many people feel passionate because they know what an amazing nursery the Willows is. Both my sons went here only a few years ago, and it is an amazing nursery. Small and caring and perfectly and passionately run. The Willows is a part of our community.
My children are the centre of my universe. I wouldn't have sent them to an unsafe building any more than you. This is about politics and lack of communication from the parish. People of this community want the Willows Nursery to Continue to be a part of the community. You are very ignorant and unhelpful.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Lucy (11th Aug 2015 - 17:29:03)

Is this site not for everyone to have their say??? Yes it is.

Like I said, I completely understand how upsetting it is for everyone and yes they should have been given a lot more notice. AND I would happily help with the sourcing of an alternative building. Actually to be honest, I am shocked that the Millenium Hall, Church Centre, Catholic Church cannot help??? Why is this? If its because they have other bookings, then surely easier for the small groups to find alternative arrangements if given a notice period?

But for someone to say that our council tax money should be used then no, I personally do not think it should.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (11th Aug 2015 - 18:07:00)

Lucy,

The Willows were going to invest £30k of their own money to renovate the Beacons building. They won't own the building it will still be rented. They just wanted assurance that they could continue with the lease for 7 years so their investment in the buildings renovations weren't wasted.

You would rather the tax payers lose £30k just to demolish the building, really? Another ridiculous comment.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- The Joy (11th Aug 2015 - 19:21:19)

Quite frankly I've seen the drawings for the proposed work which needs carrying out and in NO WAY does that building need knocking down or is unsafe. It would be like writing a car off for having a puncture. Council = Waste of space.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- David (11th Aug 2015 - 22:06:32)

I can only assume there will be some form of surveyors report/ quinenial survey or schedule of defects on which the basis of the proposed repairs to the building were based. Can this not be made public knowledge so we (the community) can see what works are required to bring the building habitable and fit for purpose again? I would like to see it for one. I have 2 children who were due to go to The Willows in September so have an interest in it remaining open. I part own and run a building company and don't see why the building isn't sorted out. The community is full of experienced, qualified, willing people who could execute the required repairs if they knew what was required.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (11th Aug 2015 - 23:41:53)

Well said David !!!

We would gladly help out me and my husband
We had already said about this and there be people in the community That would help and I'm sure business's would help out too to get the little nursery up and running for the Liphook children

Here here well said :)

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (11th Aug 2015 - 23:46:38)

i heard that councillor Barbara Easton at this meeting was all over the place people say she was away with the fairies did not if she was coming or going at this meeting so if so WHY WAS SHE THERE if she did not know what she was talking about

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (12th Aug 2015 - 10:01:51)

Oh I'm not sure she was away with the fairies. Very on the ball in fact. Writing her little notes to any councillor who came up with any potential solutions. I'm 100% convinced that in her mind the decision to demolish the Beacons is going to go ahead regardless. As she was quick to point out unfortunately it's these horrendous trustees who do get to decide ultimately what happens to the building. It's nothing to do with the public, her words not mine.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Julian (12th Aug 2015 - 10:23:29)

Nursery schooling is so important for our Children within any community.

I see three issues here that could easily be addressed;

1. Repair the building - a "DIY SOS" style community call. I am sure lots of local tradesmen would be able to assist.
.
2. Insurance - with the building repaired it should be insurable!

3. A a simple "Deed Variation" would address the terms within the current Deeds & Trust to allow "nursery education"

... or am I missing the point here?

To demolish the building seems rather unnecessary.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (12th Aug 2015 - 10:34:52)

I think everyone is missing the point. These councillors have made THEIR decision. They want the Beacons building demolished.

There are many easily reached solutions. Yet the trustees aren't getting any of them done.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (12th Aug 2015 - 11:25:06)

Hi there

Thank you for your kind words .

Please keep signing if anyone hasn't signed
Plus if you have keep sharing please

Past the half way now way past we have nearly 300 signatures

Thank you everyone

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (12th Aug 2015 - 12:13:13)

No reply from Cllr/Trustee Croucher as yet ref having sight of the documents to/fro himself and the Charities Commission,(original request 3rd August) but the following email from Damien Hind's office - replied within 24 hours:

Dear Mrs. Horsley,

Thank you for copying Damian on your letter to the Charity Commission.

He is concerned about the nursery and is in touch with local District and County Councillors as to what might be done to try to help resolve the situation. He will, of course, do whatever he can.

Thank you again.

Kind regards,
Janice Dust


Think this illustrates the problems we are having to reach a sensible compromise with all parties... there is no will to do so as far as the Cllrs/Trustees are concerned.

Hopefully when the Trustees meet again with the owners of the Willows School later this week, there will have been some pressure put on from District and County Councillors and our MP for them to at the very least listen.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (12th Aug 2015 - 14:03:29)


To close the willows down is a let down and a disgrace to the community it I think
It's a little lovely village and need this nursery it's disgusting how I feel I have been let down by liers and to say about such as something important as this needs to close and be demolished
It even says on the parish website it's up for demolishing mmmmmm
Where they swore blindly it wasn't

I'm hoping everyone is involved including children's services /education
And mps etc . This is very very wrong !!!!!!!!

My husband pays a grand and half a week a week ok flaming taxes ( don't get me started lol ) on what ! On what !

So yep council tax for Hampshire council I think I personally think some should go to the willows . Sorry but I do .
Orrrrrrrrr can a education grant be taken out of the councils funding for schools and nurserys in the area ??????

Other schools and nurserys seem to be running ok may need this and that but no urgency
Where as the willows is urgent to be repaired
So I know the teachers have there money to do the building up
But why should they pay all of it ? Where the rent they was paying on the building mmmm should of covered the upkeep of the building
Maybe if they had stuck to what the money was supose to be used for ( trustees repairing the building ) the building wouldn't be in need of renovating up ( true that ) isn't it ?

And maybe the willows wouldn't be in this situation with doing the building up either I feel so sorry for them all :(
Doing a really good thing in this community and going through this is horrendous

Outragous isn't it when the ladies have been there for 14 years or more
Good thing is it just goes to show the nursery have never had different staff for all those years and never changed anything
Never changed hands never had a bad name
Good luck to the willows :) I'm in this all the way

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (12th Aug 2015 - 16:37:10)

ann, because she is a Councillor who morphed herself into a Trustee and then back again into a Councillor. She was probably out of her depth. They are all councillors and they are trying to confuse everyone when it suits them. The demolition of the Willows is really down to Councillor Maroney wanting to put a Multi Purpose Drop in centre on the Recreation Ground. He is the councillor who is running the Parish Plan. He left the Council in May as he didnt stand again. Then his friend Councillor Croucher, are we surprised, got him voted back on to the Council again! Three councillors are responsible for this whole discraceful Willows situation. CROUCHER, JERRARD and MARONEY. Only CROUCHER turned up on Monday and he was nearly in a fight! Outrageous behaviour. They don\'t and will not answer simple questions. The only fighting that needs to be done is for the Willows and to get these councillors off their power trip, out of the Council, and stop them playing with peoples lives. That includes all the children who need to be back in the building on the Recreation Ground as soon as possible.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (12th Aug 2015 - 16:59:44)

Well said Kat!

Although I do feel Councillor Easton also needs to go after her behaviour on Monday. Those 4 gone and some new blood in council. Maybe yourself and A Ryan. Then the community might stand a chance.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (12th Aug 2015 - 17:31:43)

These councillors, trustees whatever they want to call themselves need to step down. Whatever the outcome of the Willows. Their behaviour throughout has been appalling.

I'm already in support of A.Ryan as a councillor. Kat is a great idea too. Just need a couple more.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Rob (12th Aug 2015 - 18:21:48)

John opps sorry I mean Paul ex councillor
If you have not got the guts to use yr real name, then keep yr thoughts to yr self!!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Simon (12th Aug 2015 - 20:13:28)

I flirted with the idea of running for election to the PC back in May - I approached one of the existing councillors to get more information and they gave me a good insight into life as a parish councillor. The main take away was the time it consumes and the frustrations of dealing with other councillors who, quite frankly, have only interests in moving things forward to suit them.

It's a shame - I run my own business employing ten people and have a young family so I just wouldn't have the time to commit to it - but it does feel like some fresh blood is needed. The current councillors don't seem to be acting in the best interests of the community at all, and don't seem to be able to explain or defend their actions.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Paul Robinson (12th Aug 2015 - 20:22:02)

To The Editor

As moderator of this site you alone know that recent postings to this thread under the name of John are not from me. I have not contributed in any way to this thread or others connected with the Willows Nursery.

I request that you add a comment to that effect to stop all similar speculation.

Paul Robinson

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (13th Aug 2015 - 08:49:41)

Who really cares who John is anyway. Most of his comments where completely pointless and unhelpful.

Facts are it's going to cost us taxpayers £35k + VAT to demolish Beacons building. When the survey they had done doesn't even say it needs to be demolished. If they won't let the Willows invest their money to renovate. Spend the money they were going to demolish it with. Then they can go back to annually renting. Problem solved. Easy.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (13th Aug 2015 - 09:09:45)

Was just looking at the parish council statement again regarding their decision to demolish the Beacon building and evict the Willows.

Under advice from the charities commission blah, blah, blah. Current deeds don't allow for nursery usage blah, blah, blah. Building uninsurable blah, blah, blah.

SIMPLE ADVICE FOR TRUSTEES:
*GET THE DEEDS AMENDED & CHANGE USAGE*
*LET WILLOWS RENOVATE BUILDING*
*GIVE THEM AN AGREEMENT THEY CAN USE BUILDING FOR 7 YEARS*
*INSURANCE ALLOWED*


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (13th Aug 2015 - 09:54:27)

There is an "extraordinary meeting" being held by the LMC Committee to discuss allowing The Willows to use the Canada Room, it is posted on the Parish Council website... progress?? Let's hope so

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (13th Aug 2015 - 10:37:40)

You're right Beth. The deeds can be changed. The trustees said so themselves on Monday night. Why aren't they just getting them changed.

This should have been their first action after finding out the information about usage from the charities commission. Yet they decided to serve the Willows an eviction notice.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (13th Aug 2015 - 11:23:48)

Progress hopefully Shauna but I hope this is just a short term solution until they get the deeds changed on the Beacon building.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (13th Aug 2015 - 11:37:13)

https://www.change.org/p/bramshott-bramshott-and-liphook-parish-council-save-the-willows-nursery-school

The online petition is upto 304 now
Keep signing and sharing everyone

Thank you !!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Trevor Maroney (13th Aug 2015 - 14:53:40)

It would appear from the questions that not many of you are aware of the different responsibilities between councillors and trustees.

Action with Communities in Rural England (ACRE) has produced a most useful document - Information Sheet 36 - which describes both roles. For 'village hall' read property held in trust by councils as 'corporate trustees.' It's more informative than the Charity Commission's guideline. Both documents along with others were considered by the trustees.

A link to this document has been on the Parish Council's website for sometime, but for ease of reference I have included the link here:

Village halls run by parish councils as sole trustee

As you will see, trusts are private and, we understand, not subject to the Freedom of Information Act.

Cllr. Trevor Maroney
For and on behalf of
Bramshott War Memorial Recreation Ground Trust

The link to this is also in the press release on the 3rd August, above.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (13th Aug 2015 - 16:47:01)

What an interesting read Councillor Maroney. I especially like the part about parish councillors being held liable.

Why not make yourself useful and provide us with the information we want to see. Make public the survey that shows that the Beacon building does need to be demolished. Then we'll all know that you are working with the trusts best interests at heart. Not because you want the land to relocate your offices and incorporate a drop in centre. Then we'd also like details of the demolition costs. Either us taxpayers will be footing the bill for that or the trust will. If us taxpayers are paying then that is a matter of public interest. If the money is coming from the trust then surely questions need to be asked about why the building hasn't been properly maintained and why the money isn't being used to renovate now. Especially if it's going to cost £35k to demolish.

You need to make sure you are wearing the right hat councillor Maroney! No one I've spoken to within our community believes that you are.

Serving the Willows an eviction notice at the end of July. Making out you only just found out. Absolute rubbish. Councillor Barbara Easton made that clear. When she stated at the meeting on Monday the Willows had been given a year. This was your plan from the start. It's just a shame the Willows and community trusted you. I doubt anyone will again after this. Despicable behaviour.


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (13th Aug 2015 - 17:01:15)

The post by Cllr Trevor Maroney just reinforces the fact that the Parish Councillors, who by being councillors are also trustees, are utterly secretive, lack any transparency, and are quite simply hiding behind the the Trust. It shows the unprecedented lengths they are going to, to hide information from their electorate. When asked, they have refused to provide even the most basic information, as was the case at the so called meeting on Monday night, which we the public didnt even know about.

What Cllr Trevor Maroney has failed to tell you all, as a Parish Councillor or a Trustee, and does not want to tell you, or for you to know on behalf of the Parish Council or the Trustees, is that anyone can make an FOI request to the Charity Commission seeking information about the Trust. You should quote the Charity Name and number in your request.

I would suggest that everyone contacts the Charity Commission with the information they want. An e-mail address I have found to contact them on is:

FOIRequests@charitycommission.gsi.gov.uk

I hope this helps everyone.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (13th Aug 2015 - 17:14:58)

Where were you on Monday night Councillor Maroney? The trustees stated that the deeds for the building could be changed. As trustees you are trusted to do what is right for the Beacon building. How can demolishing it be the right decision. When it can be renovated?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- James G (13th Aug 2015 - 18:14:31)

From ico.org.uk:

Charity trustees – public authorities, usually local authorities, can be trustees of charitable trusts. For example, assets such as playing fields and community halls may be held by a local authority on trust for the benefit of local residents. As trustees must act only in the best interests of the charity, and not in their own interests, this means that any information held by an authority only in its capacity as a trustee is not held by it for the purposes of FOIA (in accordance with section 3(2)(a) it is held on behalf of the trust). Nevertheless, an authority may hold information about the charitable trust for its own purposes. For example, the charity may make a report to the authority, or the authority may provide administrative support to the charity and hold information about this. It is therefore important to consider requests for information about such acharity on a case by case basis, and it is recommended that authorities should make a clear distinction between information held solely on behalf of a charity and their own information.


So information held solely on behalf of the trust would not be covered, but any request made say by the Parish Council as a whole to the charities commission would be covered.

Of course there is an obvious question - why a Parish Council and or a charitable trust for a recreation ground would want to hide information from the citizens of that parish? Why should people even have to make an FOI request against a Parish Council?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (13th Aug 2015 - 18:38:47)

James G, I agree entirely, why would they hide it but they are, and that is why any FOI request is made to the Charity Commission and not the Information Commissioner.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Jaimie (13th Aug 2015 - 18:57:24)

This whole sorry episode is another example of how ineffectual our Parish Council are.

They have no real powers to do anything and any powers they do have seem to affect the village in an adverse way.

Sadly I think Liphook is now too large to need a Parish Council and all decisions should be made by our representatives on the District Council and the Parish Council should cease to exist.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Richard (13th Aug 2015 - 20:12:46)

It does seem that even if a trust is not in FOIA scope, open governance would suggest that it is published anyway, if only to avoid accusations of "hiding" things.

Cllr Maroney used to work in an environment where everything was hidden by law. The law changed and now things are more open. Perhaps the trustees can demonstrate a similar openness?

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- ann (13th Aug 2015 - 22:30:11)

hi debbie what ever happens here you must keep this going do not let this council win the people of this parish must keep going it would be nice to see what our MP IS DOING ABOUT IT ?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (14th Aug 2015 - 07:41:52)

COUNCIL GET THERE WAY SHAME ON YOU PARISH COUNCIL

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (14th Aug 2015 - 08:14:59)

Come on it's not rocket science just get the deeds changed

If they had one decent bone in there body they would and would stand down from our community and let others stand up for our community on a note that they go with what's best for all of us. Not just go on what they think is right but what's right for the whole of Liphook

We as a community feel let down and lied too.

It's shameful to have these people as they are doing what's best for Liphook when it's not the best thing. How can it be ? Taking away a nursery

www.change.org/p/bramshott-bramshott-and-liphook-parish-council-save-the-willows-nursery-school

Please keep signing and sharing if you haven't already it's nearly been up a week now and over 300 signatures so please sign this is fantastic news.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- shauna (14th Aug 2015 - 08:19:36)

You can contact your MP on line, it is very simple, I have done it and the more people who do the more weight to our efforts to seek a resolution.. go ahead, get involved!

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (14th Aug 2015 - 08:24:10)

Hi Ann.

We are not going to give up. Thank you for your message I think these people need to be ashamed and step down now

Suppose to trust them and they suppose to be trusted to do what's best with that building for the WHOLE community
From where I'm standing neither of them have taken anyone's best interest apart from their own I don't know why ?
But it's disgusting how they have done this and done this really sly whilst we closed up for summer

Poor children having their nursery taken from them just like that. I feel sorry for the ones that have been there and know what it's like and are going back in the September . Children are not silly they know they suppose to be going back in the sept . And to be taken to a new nursery ( if that's the case here .) will be awful

The poor teachers whom have put there heart and soul into the willows
:( I feel sorry for them to having to give up there long term career / business Well just to say none of us are giving up we fighting all the way
As much as it takes :)))

Petition is up on all threads to sign and share thank you :)

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (14th Aug 2015 - 08:42:36)

I think the parish council would work if we actually had people who cared about Liphook and the community. Instead egotistical men, clearly on power trips with their own agendas. Shameful.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (14th Aug 2015 - 09:35:18)

Seriously the arrogance of councillor Maroney posting that on here. When many people within the community have been effected by the underhand and sly eviction of the Willows. When people are clearly upset. Seriously can these councillors stoop any lower.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (14th Aug 2015 - 17:53:03)

Seriously these councillors just don't get it. Even if they do find the Willows temporary accommodation. Do they honestly think we're all going to forget about the Beacon building and go away.

Voicing our opinions on here obviously isn't enough. Meetings with them appear fruitless. Drastic action is needed. Where's this petition to get rid of these untrustworthy councillors? I want to sign it. I also liked the idea of a protest. How do you go about organising a legal protest? Anyone know?

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (14th Aug 2015 - 20:33:46)

Anyone whom hasn\'t signed the petition please do so

Thank you

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (14th Aug 2015 - 21:08:17)

Front cover of the Herald again this week!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (14th Aug 2015 - 22:30:14)

Just read the Herald. Plus I was at the meeting on Monday. Yet I still don't understand why the trustees want to demolish the Beacon building. Why?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (15th Aug 2015 - 12:01:00)

Natalie I was unable to attend the meeting last Monday unfortunately. I have heard and it may just be a rumour, that very few members of the public attended. As you were there could you let me know via this site how many people were there. I have read the article in The Herald and it certainly gave the impression that there were more than a "few" members of the public present.

There is a also a new post from Trevor Maroney dated 14 August under the Thread "Parish Plan - Public Consultation on Action Plan" which reads as follows:

A press release announcing the consultation period has now been posted on the News pages of the Parish Plan website - see the above link.

Copies of the manual version of the Plan incorporating the Action Plan and the Executive Summary will be in the Parish Office and Library on Monday. Would you please let those family members, friends and neighbours who do not have online access know? We would greatly appreciate their views.

Thank you.


I think that the sentence "We would greatly appreciate their views" is to say the least, hypocritical in view of the fact that with regard to The Willows Nursery, the views and wishes of the majority of the people in Liphook have been completely ignored. How do these people get away with it? Perhaps this time they won't.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (15th Aug 2015 - 12:44:49)

M Green, I agree. They do not want the Willows back on the Recreation Ground and will find every which way they can to stop that happening and demolish the building. That does not need to be the case but it is what some of them have been scheming to do from the very start, and are continuing to do so. They are only playing the Trustees card so they can do it all in secret as we can see from Councillor Maroney's post.

Some councillors are arrogant and untrustworthy and in my opinion have lied to us about the Willows. What have they actually done for this village in the last five years? Messed it up completely pursuing their own agendas and wasting our money.

I heard there was a written petition going round to get rid of councillors. I would like to sign it as well. There is lots of information on the internet about legal protests. Perhaps anyone interested in your suggestion should meet at the Willows Building or somewhere else to talk about it and get things going. We must fight for the Willows to be re-instated on the Recreation Ground and get rid of the councillors responsible.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (15th Aug 2015 - 15:09:27)

Val unfortunately there was only a few of us at the meeting. Probably because it wasn't too publicised. I know that the lovely lady's from the Willows didn't advise us parents of the meeting. I think maybe because they were still hoping to reach an amicable agreement. Doesn't look like that's going to happen now.

M Green I also agree. The community needs to stand up to these councillors trustees. What about meeting up one evening somewhere (green dragon perhaps, seems pretty quiet in there on weeknights) to discuss a plan of action? I don't think enough people are really aware of what's happening. I'd happily post flyers around Liphook. We need to show them it's not just a few people. Liphook want the Beacon building to stay. Plus the Willows.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (16th Aug 2015 - 00:31:18)

there are 5 good people on this council wanting to do a good job for the people of the parish BUT THE REST ARE OUT FOR THERE OWN MEANS WHAT WE CALL THE DIRTY ONES AND VERY DIRTY THEY ARE PEOPLE OF THE PARISH NEED TO GET THEM OUT FOR GOOD WHAT THEY DID TO THE WILLOWS IS JUST WAY OUT OF LINE AND SHAMEFUL

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Bertie (16th Aug 2015 - 14:07:35)


Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 - Part II. I suggest the managers of the School and of the Council are sure that they are taking good professional advice. From what I can see in the worthwhile parts of this post and in the Herald, it is probable that the School has - in practice - enjoyed exclusive possession of the small building for some years. Should any paperwork refer to a 'licence', that does not affect the issue. If that is the case (i.e. exclusive possession) and payment been made, the school has a statutory tenancy to which Part 2 of the L & T Act applies, and the occupation can only be terminated under certain circumstances and in certain ways and with court approval. This part of the Act was designed to prevent business tenants being unilaterally evicted. Incidentally I don't subscribe to any belief that our hard-working parish councillors are fools or wish to see the last of this nursery school for no good reason.

CROUCHER should go
- Keven carver (16th Aug 2015 - 23:16:57)

At the meeting partly about the willows nursery he acted like he was god!!! On leaving the building he threatened a member of the public!!!! He put his face close to the member of the public and was very abusive.

CROUCHER was there for one reason to try every way to stop the willows getting back into the nursery school, putting all obstacles in the way. He is not on the council for the people of Liphook, it's for what he can get out of it. He made that quite clear when he was on the sidelines running the meeting, but there were no minutes take of the discussion. why something to hide????

Then for the rest of the councillors to say they needed to extend the car park for 15 more cars, what have they got to do with sports activities. And to use the excuse that the willows is nothing to do with sports!!!! Iv seen the kids playing out side!!!!

The willows nursery school has been set upon by narrow minded people that should not be called Liphook councillors, they should be called what we want and sod the Liphook people!!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Steve Wilson (17th Aug 2015 - 00:19:40)

Hope things Are going well, keep up the good work

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (17th Aug 2015 - 10:03:07)

Bertie, on the front of last weeks Liphook Herald it says they had a hire agreement not a licence, but the councillors seem to refer to it as a licence.

Val, I only have one view in reply to the press release from Councillor Trevor Maroney RESIGN!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (17th Aug 2015 - 16:29:27)

The problem is that one cannot easily "get rid" of councillors however much people want to and I do not think there is any sign of resignations being submitted!

The present councillors were not voted for by the electors of Bramshott & Liphook; they became councillors by default because there were not enough candidates to fill the vacancies. The remaining vacancies were filled by co-option and this process is run by the "sitting" councillors who were never voted for in the first place.

Unfortunately there were some good councillors who did not stand again for reasons best known to themselves. I couldn't possibly comment! However it does rather demonstrate that there is general reluctance/apathy when it comes to putting one's name forward for public office and Bramshott & Liphook were not alone - many other parishes were in the same situation.

While I really do sympathise with many of the views on this site, the only way to really change things is for people who feel strongly that the views and wishes of the electorate of Bramshott & Liphook are not being adhered to, is for them to stand at the next election. I know this is four years away, but the chance to make a difference for the immediate future was back in April/May of this year.

However nothing is wasted if we learn by our mistakes or should I say apathy.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Shauna (17th Aug 2015 - 16:56:36)

There is a Press Release on the PC website
Applaudable that they are trying to resolve the mess they have made.
Lamentable that there is NO mention of any resolve to preserve the asset known as the Beacon Building, left in their trust for the best use by the Community...........

Nursery Provision in Liphook

Bramshott & Liphook Parish Council would like to reassure parents that detailed discussions are continuing with Services for Young Children at Hampshire County Council. These discussions include our united endeavours to achieve a temporary solution for the Willows team and the parents
and children currently affected. The discussions will also consider ways to achieve increased nursery provision in Liphook which takes account of the increase in population from new housing developments and the government’s aims to increase the hours for free nursery care.

The Parish Council are continuing to work with the Willows management team to agree on alternative premises. This will necessarily involve approval by Ofsted who have been requested to consider this as an emergency situation.

The Parish Council would like to further reassure the public that they are committed to nursery provision in Bramshott and Liphook and will continue to work with the relevant bodies to ensure this remains a priority.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (17th Aug 2015 - 17:40:04)

Well this is so easy all the parish council have to do is give the Beacon Building to the willows let them do what they have to do to the Building to get it up and running and then all is happy its that easy .

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Debbie (17th Aug 2015 - 18:18:50)

Totally totally agree with you there word per word
I was there that Monday night and it was disgraceful
Croucher my gosh you should be ashamed. Would you still carried on the way you did there if my toddler attended
Oh my what a disgrace to see that infront of my own eyes
Disgusting disgraceful how old are you ?

Totally wrong totally wrong attitude not fair and not right !!!!!
You don't deserve to have your say on anything !!!!!

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Steve Wilson (17th Aug 2015 - 18:37:07)

CROUCHER should never have got back on the council it's only because the shortage of people standing. He is the worst thing that's happened to Liphook for years!!!!!
Resignation by CROUCHER is the best thing he could do for Liphook

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (17th Aug 2015 - 20:05:13)

Unfortunately it is not that easy. For the Willows School to be able to continue operating as a "commercial enterprise" in the Beacon Buildings, the Trustees have to apply to the Charity Commission for a change to the deeds of the Charity.... can be done. The next step is that as a Charity, in order to offer a Lease/Operating Licence for a period of 7 years, they must put this out to tender. Should another organisation have the investment to make in the building that the Willows are offering and their operation falls within the aims of the Charity Deeds then their offer has to be considered...can be done.
Result= the Beacons Building is preserved for the use of the community (not necessarily by the Willows) but these two simple steps need the trustees to take these actions. We hope they will.

Re: CROUCHER should go
- D (17th Aug 2015 - 22:46:02)

I have, over the years, had a number of dealings with Croucher.

Trust me when I say he will do nothing for anyone unless he can "profit" personally.

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Natalie (18th Aug 2015 - 00:17:51)

Totally agree. I was also there last Monday. I was shocked and disgustted by his reaction to the builders comment. Totally uncalled for.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (18th Aug 2015 - 00:29:22)

This is terrible. Yes we all want to save the Willows but we also want to save the Beacon building. Couldn't the community try to raise funds to renovate or any local companies or builders that can supply materials and labour for free? I'm not much a builder but happy to sand woodwork, paint and help wherever I can. If we got the building up to scratch then they'd have to let the Willows continue year on year. That would give us at least another 4 years. Then we can vote these idiots out and get in some decent councillors.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (18th Aug 2015 - 22:44:17)

Your so right beth in what your saying !!! There's a lot of us that could chip in together and help . I'm surprised no locals are volunteering there help or contractors in the area volunteering
I know it would be a big ask but it makes sense .
So the willows/beacons can stay .
It's for a good cause and for the children of our community/ future
We not giving up !!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (19th Aug 2015 - 10:44:37)

What can we really do? Seems like councillor Croucher makes the decisions in Liphook with the back up of his yes men Maroney, Easton and Jerrard. The community don't count. It's really unfair and upsetting.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Debbie (19th Aug 2015 - 10:56:25)

Hi there thank you

Have lots of signutures on my paper petitions so that's brill

Please keep signing the online one that's doing amazingly well keep sharing please

www.change.org/p/bramshott-bramshott-and-liphook-parish-council-save-the-willows-nursery-school

Thank you everyone

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Beth (19th Aug 2015 - 11:13:06)

Councillor Croucher is never going to resign. That's obvious when him and his cronies would rather knock down a perfectly good building down just to save face.

Doesn't seem fair at the moment but I'm sure it'll all work out in the end. Look at all those MP's who fiddled their expenses. Some even ended up in prison. The local community won't just forget about the Beacon building and Willows.

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Sarah (19th Aug 2015 - 13:28:09)

I read this post with dismay, to be perfectly honest I have no idea about this Parish Councillor or any others so my comments aren't related specifically to the OP.

However, the big issue is that residents of Liphook won't put themselves forward to become Parish Councillors - there was the opportunity earlier this year... I didn't vote for any of the Councillors currently sat on the Parish Council because it was not contested. People may not forget the issues Beth raises in her post, but if no-one stands the Parish is 'elected' uncontested,we don't move forward and things stay the same.

There are a lot of people on Talkback who are willing to speak up, complain and moan, but when it comes down to it won't stand up to take on the responsibility. I guess this is because they aren't willing to put themselves out there, knowing that they will face the same criticisms.

So stating that a specific councillor should go/resign/step down etc. is all very well and good, but someone needs to fill those shoes. And before there is a barrage of 'why do we need a Parish Council anyway?' they actually perform (when they do perform) and important function being the closest to the community and representing their values - if of course they are elected!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (20th Aug 2015 - 14:51:34)

Any update on the Willows situation yet?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- L (20th Aug 2015 - 15:19:42)

This is absolutely ridiculous. A close personal friend of mine is a parish councillor and is bending over backwards to try to help The Willows. This criticism is completely biased and unjustified and, quite frankly, horrible, when I know firsthand how stressed this person has been, working EVERY DAY to try to sort this situation out.

On another note, The Willows is a business, and, whilst they were renting a building owned by the parish council, they are not the parish council's responsibility (nevertheless, my friend and the other councillors have been tirelessly sorting out a new place for them to use). The building they were using was only ever built to be a temporary building, yet years later it was still being used. As a business, a sensible approach would be to have a backup plan, as any business should - what if there had been a fire in the building, for instance? I don't think it's fair to victimise the councillors for this, especially since they haven't just abandoned the company - they are trying very hard to provide them new accommodation.

Please remember that the parish councillors are all people and villagers who volunteered to be councillors off their own backs. Not enough people even stood for it to go to a vote! They have to make decisions, and are not evil people who are trying to ruin the village - they are trying to do the opposite, make improvements and look after and support the village. To be attacked for this is terrible. Please, everyone, show some decency and stop name calling and mindlessly attacking online. It isn't going to change anything.

It has actually changed a lot, I believe. I don't think their original plan included helping the Willows find new accommodation, but I might be wrong. Also, isn't the building owned by the trust, not the PC ? And the building has been proved to be fully serviceable. Would be great to get a definitive answer as to why the building has to be demolished and to what recreational use the land will be put to. Could your friend answer those points ?

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Kat (20th Aug 2015 - 16:22:19)

Having read the front page of the Herald today there is even more reason for him and his cronies to resign.

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- Kat (20th Aug 2015 - 16:26:02)

Please sign the petition to save the Willows and the building on the Recreation Ground. They have been up to all sorts of things in a dishonest way. And there is no reason for the building to be demolished.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (20th Aug 2015 - 16:33:48)

Your friend who is a parish councillor and a trustee would not have had this problem if they had not made such a crass and idiotic decision in the first place. To late now. Ask him or her if they voted in secret to throw out the Willows and demolish the building. If they did, then sorry,only themselves to blame.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (20th Aug 2015 - 17:12:52)

just look at today's liphook herald you can see why the parish council wanted to get willows nursery OUT OF THE BUILDING

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- B&LPC (20th Aug 2015 - 18:51:08)

A press statement has been issued today regarding The Willows use of the Millennium Centre, which can be found on the front page of the PC website (link below).

bramshottandliphook-pc.gov.uk

This follows the Extraordinary Meeting of the Liphook Millennium Centre Management Committee held last night.

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Rob (20th Aug 2015 - 20:38:22)

There is only 2 people that should be the start of a new council. Councillor Gavin and the new lady that lives down the Portsmouth Road, the rest need to go. They are a joke council!!!!!

Re: CROUCHER should go
- tony (20th Aug 2015 - 21:24:49)

It's all very well saying he or she must go, we don't like them or we disagree with their decisions.

But as has been said, no one else is willing to put themselves in the firing line.

There simply weren't enough candidates to fill every role, so everyone who stood got in as we knew they would.

Anyone else could have put themselves forward and got in, maybe people from the Willows or their supporters, then perhaps all of this could have been avoided.

Or could it? It's easy to shout from the gutter "how dare you do that", we saw that with the original lefty Labourites, we saw it in Greece more recently, but when it's your personal responsibility and liability on the line, maybe you know you'd have to make those same unpopular decisions in an era of cuts and economies, no one wants taxes to go up, no one wants the bus service cut or a nursery closed, no one wants to sit in front of a hundred angry people explaining why the meeting must move on, why their voices can no longer be heard and the councillors must now analyse the legalities.

I don't want cuts and I don't want the responsibility of telling you that, I don't want the potential personal liability of making a wrong legal decision or the anger of the village on my head, all for no pay.

If you do or think you can do better then step up. Really, step forward, we need you, it's a job for saints or sinners, glory seekers or else thankless servitude, nothing in between, the days of councillors or politicians being revered and able to fiddle the expenses are well and truly over.

I don't have any faith in any of them, politicians of any type, their either scheming and manipulative or naïve and useless, perhaps at best they mean well but end up achieving little, neither is any good to us.

If I could only say one positive thing about this lot, the previous lot or whoever, it's at least they did it. Over to you.

Re: CROUCHER should go
- robin (20th Aug 2015 - 21:27:21)

I have only seen cllr Gavin at one meeting in May he appeared tired and confused he did not utter one word? In what is he more competent then?
Falling asleep?

Re: CROUCHER should go
- RML builders (20th Aug 2015 - 22:45:32)

I have done a lot of work for the council, but have heard that because I am trying to help the willows nursery school with their repairs. The Clerk of the council has been told to remove my name from the list of contractors to do any work for the council it's self. Just shows you how this council work, if they don't get their own way. This council have employed me to do some repairs on the willows several times. So there is discrimination against me, because I'm willing to work nights, weekends to get the willows ready to open on time. It's just so sad we have narrow minded people running this council!!!!! I will do what ever I can to help keep the willows open, in a building with a little love will last at least 50 more years

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Bob (21st Aug 2015 - 00:37:42)

So one minute we hear that the council have neglected the Willows building and then we hear from RML Builders that they have done several jobs on the building.

Maybe the council did the right thing as when I read the survey it says that there would have to be a lot of ongoing expensive maintenance even if it was repaired so maybe the council were right to close it.




Re: CROUCHER should go
- RML builders (21st Aug 2015 - 08:59:39)

The jobs were only small jobs as the floor had damage to it 2 small places, yr only talking a few hundred pounds, and removed asbestos that the asbestos survey showed up. It Was nothing to what the council should have spent over the years, if they had there would not have this problem now

Re: The Willows Nursery School Petition
- C (21st Aug 2015 - 09:02:49)

Kat

You make the following statement.

“They have been up to all sorts of things in a dishonest way”

Is this directed specifically at the Parish Council and Recreation Ground Trustees?

Do you have substantive evidence to support this serious accusation you have made publically?

A search of Talkback over the last 18 months indicates that the only contributions you have made to topics on this site are in threads that have some link to the Parish Council.

You clearly understand the workings of the Parish Council far better than I do. If you believe so much is wrong with the Council why do you not come forward to offer your services to the community as, whether you like them or not the current, incumbents have.

I do find that on a number of occasions your comments, directed personally at individuals, have deflected a perfectly reasonable thread away from its original purpose.

I too hope that there will be a positive resolution to both the future of the Willows and nursery schooling generally in Liphook.

Re: CROUCHER should go
- Dawn Hoskins (21st Aug 2015 - 09:13:26)

I am not sure why there is so much uncertainty about the ongoing costs and present state of the building when last year’s report is available for all to read? It includes the stark warning: the ongoing deterioration of the floor and the structure is inevitable; the school must be prohibited from moving heavy items around and not allow any ‘jumping’ type of activities such as gymnastics or dancing especially if adults will be joining in. If the floor is not replaced during the autumn half term then a careful assessment should be made before children are allowed to enter…… scary!

No insurer would provide insurance for children to enter if they had read this survey – not in a million years. I would be very surprised if the school had presented this survey to any insurer and managed to get cover – I wouldn’t believe it - and as a parent I would not allow my child to enter an uninsured structure.

Although the building is owned by the Trust (which it is a charity), the Parish Council have had the responsibility of it’s ongoing maintenance since it was built as a temporary structure after the war. They have done this since the since the war and made many changes, improvements and extensions to keep the building in serviceable use. The fact that it is essentially an old wooden shed cannot be changed though. It is understandable that the general public have not noticed the work as for the last decade only 2 users have had use and it has not been open to the public.

The fact that you are not aware of the work, does not mean that the work has not been done. How do you think all the new toilets were installed? What about the complete kitchen refit? Who do you think paints it, patches up the holes……….YOU DO out of your taxes and tax payers have been doing so since the war – in just the same way as you pay for any other public building like the Millennium Hall or the Haskell Centre. The difference is that the general public have daily use of those public buildings so they can see when the workmen turn up.

I am sure there must be some sort of costing report based on last year’s survey – but just reading through the survey the message is inherently clear – as it was only ever a temporary shed it does not and cannot meet the legislations of today. It requires extensive ‘above average’ ongoing maintenance/repair which is difficult due to the inherent defects. The only way to avoid the failures of the wooden shed and the cost of keeping it standing, is to demolish it and rebuild. It is not ‘horrible old parish councillors’ saying this, it is a professional survey which is now one year old.

In addition to the regular wood preservation, painting ect which you would expect; the reports goes into detail of why the shed is inadequate but the list includes the fact that today we need ventilation under the floor to prevent damp and a damp proof course: there is none which results in damp. It is not insulated, it is cold. It has inerrant damp problems and lack of ventilation. There is no heating. The hidden joinery is deteriorating and the damp means that the pipe work is constantly rusting. The repairs to the doors have now got to the end of their life and the doors need replacing. The roof which has been patched and patched has now got to the point that it needs to be totally replaced. The pre-war floor and timbers are being eaten by woodlouse and damp and the whole floor needs to be replaced.

Now – no one is saying that the Willows is not a great Nursery School, no one is saying that the teachers aren’t committed or the children didn’t love it……but put your business heads on for a minute. Do the sums.

Up until now YOU have been paying for EVERYTHING to keep this business running. The terms of their use meant that even the gas and electricity was paid for by you in addition to other provisions even as basic as towels and toilet rolls. Of course the business would want to keep these favourable terms as well as the historically low ‘peppercorn’ rent – what business wouldn’t – but if the tipping point has been reached with regard to the cost of keeping the shed standing up - then the why should tax payers keep digging into their pockets when it makes no financial sense to do so?

I know that nursery provision is desperately lacking in the area. I know that the Willows staff are loved by all. But that is not a good enough reason to keep trying to make the wooden shed stay upright. It is a good reason for a private business to see an opportunity to expand or a new business to start up, it is a good reason for the Education Department at EHDC to step up and fill the gap but it is not a good opportunity for taxpayers to keep a private business afloat when the facts/costs are against it.

I have now merged two other Willow related threads into this to prevent repeated postings being necessary. Those being 'The Willows Nursery School Petition' and 'CROUCHER should go'

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- robin (21st Aug 2015 - 10:08:40)

Perhaps RML Builders were overcharging,? If, as RML building company states, there was nothing much wrong with the building, and they were lined up to do repairs, why have they quoted between 30k and 35K to do the refurb?

The survey report after all would have included the previous, perhaps substandard repairs they did? Perhaps the council wanted to save money by removing their name from their approved contractors. Perhaps their name should not have been on any list!

The penny drops now as to why all the vitriolic posts have come in from Rob, Robin, and KEVEN, about the councillors, are they posters who stand to potentially lose their inflated income stream from the Parish Council.?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (21st Aug 2015 - 10:19:40)

I believe the rent included "shared services" of water and electricity with the Bowls Club, and the new Lease (that is no more) would have detailed the splitting of services and the Willows School paying for their usage.

It is also my understanding that the repairs would have been paid for by the Willows School and a HDC Grant, there was no cost to the Parish mentioned.

Provision for 7 years nursery care for the children of the Parish at no cost to the taxpayer while longer term solutions to the shortage of this type of care, at no cost to the taxpayer - or demolition of the Beacon Building, loosing a community asset and costing the taxpayer £???

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Katy (21st Aug 2015 - 10:26:58)

Thank you Dawn for your detailed response.

It would be helpful if you or anyone in the know could post the rent paid by Willows over the last three years and the expenses paid out by the council eg repairs, utilities, consumables etc. this way the general public could see how much (if at all) the taxpayers are supporting this business.

I feel sorry for Willows parents and children who are trying to secure nursery places. I also feel sorry for other nursery providers who are running a business in competition with Willows if indeed they are being subsidised by the tax payer and paying a peppercorn rent as suggested.

I wonder if the council charged a "market rate" and did the necessary repairs whether this would be feasible for the nursery to continue?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- robin (21st Aug 2015 - 11:26:31)

The majority of the repair work was to be paid for by the Hants County Council, which is still a cost to the taxpayer, I am sure that as owners of the building, the Parish council still have responsibility for ensuring the work is up to a decent standard, the Willows business would still only be tenants.

Perhaps a new bigger purpose built building somewhere else would be more of an asset to the community than expensive patch up repairs on a former unheated sports pavilion more than 75 years old.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- B&LPC (21st Aug 2015 - 13:04:09)

Reposting this as in merger of threads it may not have been noted. This details the rent paid by The Willows.

A press statement has been issued today regarding The Willows use of the Millennium Centre, which can be found on the front page of the PC website (link below).

The Willows Nursery School use of Liphook Millennium Centre

This follows the Extraordinary Meeting of the Liphook Millennium Centre Management Committee held last night.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Katy (21st Aug 2015 - 13:58:21)

Thanks Parish council for the rent figs, now how about the expense figures to compare?

Thanks

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Robin (21st Aug 2015 - 14:19:56)

Hi what figure are you comparing the rent to? If you also factor in the outside area the Willows use, that outside area also has to be maintained. A friend of mine pays 200 per month as a resident for upkeep of outside communal green areas? That is included?
I think that this estimating possible profit is silly! The comparable rents in the area are far far higher on commercial properties, and they are not inclusive of all bills. Council Tax Bills for a start? they are far higher on commercial properties than domestic?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Katy (21st Aug 2015 - 16:01:45)

Robin I am not comparing the figure to anything as I am still waiting. The utilities, repairs and consumables as requested would be a start! Still waiting for those figures but I won't hold my breath.

By the way I don't think the village needs another white elephant in the form of a new £1million plus building. The millennium Hall is haemorrhaging cash, let's fix that first before taking on any more public buildings shall we?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (21st Aug 2015 - 16:16:20)

I think the problem with regard to the whole sorry situation surrounding The Willows is because there has been lack of clarity and mismanagement which began with the PC/Trustees peremptorily giving very short notice of eviction to The Willows Nursery.

This was compounded by the debacle of a meeting on 27 October, 2014 when The Willows was discussed under the PUBLIC PARTICIPATION SESSION 'To allow members of the public to address the Council with respect to items not on the agenda'. In my opinion this was the wrong way to handle what was becoming a very difficult and emotional situation.

Feelings understandably were running high and the Chairman, Cllr Croucher did not handle things in a tactful or democratic way. It was obvious he was losing control of the meeting, fateful for a Chairman to do this, and reacted by cutting people short in a dictatorial and confrontational way and then making matters worse by stating that he as Chairman could only allocate 10 minutes for the discussion on The Willows.

Bearing in mind the meeting was packed with majority of the people attending because of The Willows, this to say the least, was unwise. They had taken the trouble to turn out and wanted to be heard. So the meeting ended with everyone feeling disenfranchised, very disgruntled and ignored.

It is important to note that the reason at that time for evicting The Willows so quickly was that the building was in a "dangerous" state of repair and that now seems to be debatable. We then hear that the eviction has been rescinded, The Willows are going to find the money for the repairs, obtain insurance and will be allowed to stay.

A post on 1 July, 2015 appears on this site from the owners of The Willows which states that the nursery will be up and running in September. A Press Release then appears on 3 August from Charity Commission/The Trustees/Parish Councillors stating that the Beacons Building cannot be used for educational purposes only recreational ones. This stated in spite of the fact that The Willows has been operating for fourteen and a half years. So where did this suddenly come from?

So perhaps, in view of the foregoing, members of the public and supporters of The Willows cannot be blamed for feeling suspicious and disadvantaged by all that has happened over the last few months.

With my charitable hat on perhaps the parish councillors are well intentioned but at best they appear to have been misguided, insensitive and inefficient and at worst, well who knows – I would not like to speculate on that one! Either way they have created this morass of bad feeling and it is up to them to put it right.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (21st Aug 2015 - 17:12:14)

I wonder where John disappeared to? Any ideas Robin? Robin, you are wrong by the way. East district council where providing around £10k to help renovate the Beacon building. To help save it. The Willows were paying the majority not the council. Hence the Willows wanting a commitment to be safe for 7years.

C. - Clearly the councillors are dishonest and are playing unfair. To remove RML builders from their list of contractors. Is completely out of order. Just more proof of the way they work. Disgusting!!!

Dawn Haskins, if your going to go on and on and on. It might be an idea to make sure that your stating facts and not fiction. The Willows never had sole usage of the Willows. It was used once I believe by a sports club. No-one else ever wanted to use the building or they would have be able to. Then your point about toilets and the kitchen. If so much money has been invested. Why demolish the building? Then your next point about do the sums. In the meeting the councillors themselves confirmed that rent from the Willows was enough to cover services plus pay groundsman. How are the tax payers paying for this?

HOW MUCH IS IT GOING TO COST THE TAXPAYERS TO DEMOLISH THIS BUILDING? Robin, C. Or Dawn anyone care to answer? Councillor Croucher bare faced lied at the meeting and stated he'd not had any quotes yet. Another councillor said they had. £30k plus Vat!!! NOW DO THE SUMS DAWN!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (21st Aug 2015 - 17:53:35)

I am livid reading the front of the Herald this week. Just a few weeks ago people sat in a meeting with these untrustworthy councillors. They were asked outright if they wanted the Beacon site to build a drop in centre. Their answer "we have no plans for the site". Bare faced lies.

Is it also not a coincidence that most of the councillors are clearly over the age of 60. How handy a drop in centre for the elderly.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (21st Aug 2015 - 18:31:07)

If on the recreation grounds they want to plan /build a drop in centre for young n old why wouldn't they also build a nursery with it that's my ideas and thoughts ?
Would that be so bad in my eyes a drop in centre for the ederly /young isn't really recreational in my husbands or my eyes tbh
Would it be so bad for them that are going to plan for the drop in centre to also put a building there for a nursery and let the willows stay in the millennium till the buildings done
They said thereselves they got to find or find a plot of land for it so why not plan along side the drop in centre
Seriously is that great or what ?
And whom is funding this drop in centre ?
(And By the way I do class a drop in centre as a drop in for people on drugs and booze sorry but I do ) can we get the name changed please to something more appropriate for Liphook please )

If your willing to build a drop in centre lol why not also build the nursery in with it problem solved
And by the way whom ever said the parish trying to help
Yer ok lol !!!!!!!!!!
It's the nursery teachers and parents whom are the ones trying to find
places. Disgusting absolute disgusting
I say now to stop developing lipjook leave our greenery the way it is
We not got enough facilities in Liphook for extra families to move in
All it boils down to is greed and money
I think I stop paying council tax lol being I don't want to contribute to the drop in and appernlty it's going to be paid for by us

Please can we have a vote for Liphook what we would like in our community !!!!!!



Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M (21st Aug 2015 - 19:35:51)

I think it's disgusting what's been written on here without thought to people's reputations - defamation is a criminal offence by the way.

There seems to be lots of assumptions made without facts. It is quite simple really - if you want information ask the people who can provide it. It is absolutely pointless slagging off the parish council on here without actually asking them for the facts. Have any of you actually written to them asking for information? Probably a big fat no.

How many of you turned up to the two recent meetings where this issue was discussed? How many of you are actually nothing to do with The Willows and have other motives like money, lost contracts, or a personal grudge? How many of you have contacted Hampshire County Council or the District Council to try and find solutions to the issue of nursery provision?

Whilst you're all busy slagging off the parish council on here, other people are actually trying to resolve the situation. You keyboard warriors are achieving absolutely nothing except for arguing amongst yourselves, pathetic!













Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (21st Aug 2015 - 20:01:16)

Beth, I am sorry you feel my post too long, but if you had read it all through you will find I have never said the Willows have sole use. I state quite clearly that there is another user. It is not the case that anyone who wanted to use the building would have be able to - as the nursery has sole use of their part, even during holidays when they were not using it. It is entirely untrue to say that if anyone wanted to go in they could.

I have not said that ‘so much money has been invested’ only that the necessary running repairs have indeed been made, but that the faults in the building (the fact that it was only a temporary wooden shed) cannot extend the lifespan of a dilapidated building past it’s tipping point. This is my point about doing the sums.

I am not sure what you are asking about re:council tax?

Have you read the report from last year Beth? It was the surveyor who stated that the only way to make good the inherent failures in the building would be to demolish and rebuild. I would expect a well-run PC to obtain quotes for this if it has been recommended by the surveyor, so what is the problem if they have? Given the advice they received I would say they were remiss in their duties if they had NOT obtained a quote – not if they have!

None of the Councillors I have asked know anything about this fictional figure of £30K or which contractor would have quoted such an extortionate overinflated amount so I have no idea who would have submitted it. They would have been laughed off if they did I would have thought.

You seem to think I am against the Willows Beth. I am not. I am just against throwing good money after bad. There can be no getting away from the fact that the shed is way past it’s sell-by-date.

IMO the building should have been shut down immediately upon receipt of that surveyors report. A closure notice should have been issued on the same day. I know this would have caused terrible distress to working parents – but not as much distress as would happen if the floor collapsed, the ceiling fell in or they contracted mesothelioma from the asbestos in the artex. Surely no parent would want that???

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (21st Aug 2015 - 23:39:25)

Dawn, have you seen the Herald this week? The Beacon building can be saved, renovated and the deeds amended to change the usage. Why isn't this happening?


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (22nd Aug 2015 - 09:07:16)

At the meeting we asked if the beacons were going to be demolished for a drop in centre and they said no we don't have no plans for nothing
Vascular had lied to us even though I had found out that day from word of mouth it was going to be a drop in centre
Why lie to us
We teach our children not to lie and we grow up not to lie
Told lieing is bad
Er what happens they lie the councillors
How do we trust these people with the Liphook plans for the future
I tell you what if I haven't a busy life with my young children I would stand for Liphook
:) but life as it is too hectic ATM . Maybe when my children grown up and If I'm still living in Liphook then maybe :)

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat B (22nd Aug 2015 - 09:59:58)

Combining a preschool with the proposed drop in centre is not such a crazy idea.....it been done in the States. A preschool was set up in a Nursing home in Seattle;

see abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/... for article and lovely video.

Maybe an idea for liphook?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M (22nd Aug 2015 - 14:29:40)

Just because the parish plan group said about a drop in centre doesn't mean the parish council want it. They're two different organisations and when I looked on the parish plan website it didnt say were it would be. And the herald also said that the centre has no support and no chance of funding. The paper also says that the parish plan committee didn't even want it as they wanted to use the Millennium Centre instead. And don't forget the parish council said about moving the parish office to the Millennium Centre as well so that would be a really good community facility then with everything in one central place. I think that's far more likely to happen.

Sounds to me like the headline in the paper says one thing but when you read the article it basically said it's unlikely to happen.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- The Joy (22nd Aug 2015 - 19:59:09)

That building does not need knocking down. I quoted for the work needed to be completed and quite frankly I have seen residential properties in worse condition which have never came back with a surveyors report claiming they need knocking down. Utter dribble Dawn.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (22nd Aug 2015 - 23:46:37)

The Joy - are you saying the surveyors report last year was utter drivel?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- joseph (23rd Aug 2015 - 12:09:23)

Most builders are not also qualified surveyors ? A builder does not need any professional qualifications, some do achieve some qualifications but the reason we need building inspectors is to attempt to monitor what is done for safety purposes. It is not until you begin to take a building apart you realise how badly it has been constructed in the first place. A sports Pavillion built 75 years ago, before building regs came in could be riddled with asbestos.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (23rd Aug 2015 - 16:38:19)

Read the report... one of the Councillors stated at a recent meeting "there is nothing in the surveyor's report to suggest the building should be demolished", repaired, yes, made fit for purpose, yes, demolished - NO. there are funds available to preserve this building at no cost to the parish, the question is: Why will the PC/Trustees not allow this work to be carried out? There are no plans currently in place to provide alternative Nursery Care, why not repair this building to a standard that will allow this for the 5-7 years that will be needed to put alternative solutions in place? If the PC are vacating the Haskell Building to move into the Millenium Centre that could be a prefect place for Nursery Care, but will take at least 3-5 years to put in place. If the Police are to vacate their premises at the Millenium Centre that would another ideal solution, but this will take time..... ideal stop gap, allow the Beacon Building to be restored to a state that is fit for purpose for the short term, or am I being simplistic and naïve?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- The Joy (23rd Aug 2015 - 17:30:27)

Joseph you don't know if asbestos is in the building. Sounds like your just gossiping. To think that building control exist purely due to builders and tradesmen being mindless and uneducated is comical, stop stereotyping. Sorry Dawn but regardless of the report being this year or last that building just needs tlc not knocking down or closing due to being dangerous FACT.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Sue (23rd Aug 2015 - 20:40:05)

The survey is on the front page of the parish council website and on the first page it says:

"Were the building a dwelling then it would inevitably be demolished and rebuilt"

and near the end it says:

"Consequently it will require above average ongoing maintenance and repair and it will be difficult to eliminate inherent defects and shortcomings without virtually complete reconstruction"

Sounds a bit more than TLC!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- David (23rd Aug 2015 - 21:16:19)

It is irrelevant if the place is 'riddled' with asbestos anyway, for those that don't know it does not leap out the walls, ceilings or from pipe lagging and bore its way into your chest like the scare mongers will have you believe, and that is EVEN IF it is present! Shauna makes a lot of sense, why the hell isn't the place just tarted up a bit until other arrangements are made and firmly put in place? The reason why not is probably due to the fact that it would mean that common sense has prevailed and that is not how we do things in this country! Why make something simple when you can wrap it up in red tape, pour a load of legislation on it and seal it of with a good old load of health and safety stuff to boot. The situation is just plain stupid and let's all be honest, so easily resolved...

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Alan Jones (23rd Aug 2015 - 21:53:55)

Having read the report all the way through, as far as I can see the only mention of demolition is towards the start of the report where the author makes the subjective statement that if the building were a dwelling it would probably have been demolished and rebuilt.

This sentence I believe should carry little weight as while I accept the premise that if the building was a dwelling it would have been demolished and rebuilt (in order to ensure the property had a resale value), the reality is that this not a dwelling but a utility building and the resale value is irrelevant as the deeds would prevent the building being sold.

However one point of interest from the report is that the author considers it likely that rodents and bats are inhabiting the roof space. If there is a possibility of bats being present, the trustees will be required to carry out a full bat survey. Should this reveal that bats are indeed present, were the trustees to proceed with the demolition of the building they would be guilty of a criminal offence.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- joseph (23rd Aug 2015 - 23:44:02)

I imagine as the building was built as a sports pavillion there would be no deeds just as a wooden built garden shed has no deeds. If there were deeds they woukd be lodged with the land registry. The Pavillion was built long after the land was bought for recreation. It is not possible to prevent anything with a value being bought or sold by the owner, look at Bohunt Manor? That land was meant to have been kept for the use by the people of liphook and the building used by the WWF. Look what happened there! I do not see the distinction either surely safety is as important in a non domestic building, after all 20 young children were in there, are they not worth keeping in a non faulty construction?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (24th Aug 2015 - 10:16:57)

Joseph stop scaremongering. The building is not unsafe. The only mention of getting the building demolished was due to the resell value. Not because it's unsafe.

Does it not seem crazy to anyone that the Willows weren't allowed to stay in the Beacon building because they don't comply with the recreational usage stipulations in the deeds, yet the trustees are allowed to demolish a building because a survey mentioned that if it was a dwelling it wouldn't be cost effective to repair, as it won't reach its resell value.

It's not a dwelling. Will never be a dwelling or resold. What is going on!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Alan Jones (24th Aug 2015 - 10:42:34)

Joseph

I accept your point re property deeds, I was referring to charity deeds, i.e. the constitution of the charity.

Re your point on safety - yes of course it should be as safe, but my point is while the report highlights a number of areas of construction that need attention, none of them appear to be that significant (simply that there are a lot of minor items so it makes the report look somewhat weightier than it is) and nowhere in the report does it say the building should be demolished - it merely makes the (in my view subjective) comment that if it was a dwelling it would have been demolished and rebuilt (but it does not say that this would have been done on safety grounds, purely aesthetics and comfort).

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- roo (24th Aug 2015 - 17:27:07)

How come the willows nursery suddenly doesn't fit the criteria of the deeds on the beacon building, Is this because the trustee's now want to demolish the building. Perhaps someone with legal knowledge should look into this as it seems a bit strange that all of a sudden they are no longer able to use the building or was this the case all along that they were not allowed to use the building under deeds restrictions all along and the trustee's knew this.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- interested (25th Aug 2015 - 00:21:01)

This is a sorry saga. The parish council have been vilified over making a decision on a building which is their responsibility to upkeep. The Willows Nursery are not longer able to use the building as their base. Apparently the Willows are being offered alternative accommodation at the Millenium building in the meantime. That seems reasonable to me unless the Willows were not advised of the decision to close their previous facility in advance. Can the Willows management clarify when they were given notice of the fact that they would no longer be able to use the building?
I only ask in the interests of balance and fair play

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kathryn Thorpe. (25th Aug 2015 - 09:02:59)

Fantastic news ladies. Congratulations.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (25th Aug 2015 - 15:19:47)

Interested - the Willows were evicted from the Beacon building on the 30th July. After the preschool had broken up for the summer. Yet they\'d been advised last autumn they could stay on. They had planned to renovate the building over the summer holidays. Had lots of children lined up already to start. Mine included. They were definitely not treated fairly.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (25th Aug 2015 - 23:07:40)

This building is sound just needs some work on it i hope the people of liphook will keep going on this and not give up on willows. needs this building to get up and running so we need to keep going at this council they are really bad to do this to a nursery shame on you

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (26th Aug 2015 - 17:09:25)

I wouldn't worry Ann. People aren't giving up. No-one is going to forget about the Beacon building or the Willows.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (27th Aug 2015 - 15:04:55)

No we will not forget this, and the fight must continue to get them reinstated. A repairable, insurable, and then useable building which the Willows were evicted from without warning, when they had everything in place to start the work a few days later.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (28th Aug 2015 - 08:17:12)

Interested
The willows got told that could stay and that made plans for the nursery to have work done
Get told we close early for this work to be done
And then oh my gosh we get told into august last week of July that the children cannot attend there nursery school after summer holidays
Nice
Nice one there is no where to go if there be somewhere else to go why the temp building of the millennium this is stupid as there is no where in Liphook
Disgusting the way the willows teachers got treated absolutely disgusted tbh
It isn't on and it's not fair on either parties involved here
Oh well people soon see how bad it is when new houses are being built in Liphook everywhere all over the place and those people whom move in half of them or all will have children to drop off at a nursery school
So roads of haslemere etc will be more congested with the more traffic load by parents dropping there children off to other places
DISGUSTING ALL THE CHILDREN OF LIPHOOK SHOULD BE SHOULD BE GOING TO A NURSEY IN THERE OWN HOME AREA

So we need another nursery but where ? Where in Liphook as I said there's no where
As isaid before if they wanting to build a drop in centre
Build a nursery attached but own Seperate bit
If that makes sense within that new centre that will cost lots
Or these new estates they are going or wanting to build how about putting plans on that for the willows nursery ?
Most of the new estates now have private nurserys on them :) so why not Liphook ?

Enough said .

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (28th Aug 2015 - 09:56:15)

Do you think that the age and nature of the building was unknown to the business owners? Is it not up to the business owners to have a plan B when they are in a temporary, cold, damp, mouldy, bug infested and rotting shed?

I KNOW there is not enough nursery provision in this village. This means that a clever business person should be applying themselves to take advantage of the opportunity (which takes money as well as forethought).

The lack of nursery provision cannot take away from the fact that despite being tarted up and preserved as well as it could in the last 70 years, the building is now uninsurable and therefore not safe. SURELY that is the most important thing for any parent?

Please tell me that you, as a parent, would not want your child in an uninsured environment because I seem to be getting the message that some parents would place their children despite the danger and risk just because it is convenient.

That building became an uninsurable risk a whole year ago and should have been shut on immediate receipt of the report. I would bet money that the business did not inform their insurers of the true state of the wooden shed. If they had provided the surveyors report - their insurance would have been cancelled - if they did not provide it the policy would have been nullified for non-disclosure.

If you've got a rotting wooden shed at the bottom of your garden, what do you store in it? Junk - or your most precious possession?

It IS a disgrace that we do not have enough nursery places & Children (and parents) loved the Willows. This is a true statement but it has to exist alongside the facts of reality.

It is amazing the shed stood for 30 years let alone 70 and an alternative premises should have been sought by the business years before now.

I am sure I will get a string of abusive responses for posting what I see as common sense; but perhaps before you hit the submit button you could re-read last year's report - and know that the situation is now worse than before with the passing of a particularly wet year .

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Sheila (28th Aug 2015 - 11:55:02)

You won't get a string of abuse from me Dawn, from what I have read and heard, fair warning was given to the Willows and I'm sure the others nursery schools can take a few more children, just not full time, and maybe they would like their own purpose built nursery, would be a bit unfair for one to be made available at the cost of the tax payers, as they are all equal businesses, and should deserve the same opportunity !
As disappointing and sad this situation maybe, it is as you say a perfect opportunity for a new business to start, by finding their own premises, like every other business has to, without help from local councils. I'm pretty sure if another business had to vacate rented premises because the owner wanted to sell up or not be able to afford the upkeep of a property they would not get all this uproar, they would just have to get on and sort out their own situation !!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (28th Aug 2015 - 20:00:42)

Dawn and Sheila
You must stick to the facts: the work needed to make the building insurable and fit for purpose was approved, costed and funds made available by the owners of the Willows School... not the tax payers.
This was approved by the Parish Council/Trustees and they instructed their Solicitors to draw up a Lease to protect the investment that the Willows School were prepared to make, to replace the current Tenancy at Will/Annual renewal that was currently in place.
All Parties were in agreement that this was the way forward.
WHAT CHANGED?



Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (29th Aug 2015 - 00:32:40)

Shauna dawn hoskins was on the parish council when all this was going on last year shauna this council lnows there is not a alot wrong with this building it can be all done and they know it too.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- dave mcgrath (29th Aug 2015 - 13:22:15)

If the facts are correct in the last posting and similar ones, then a contract was made between the parties and legal expenses were incurred by the tenants, which to my mind should be recoverable. This whole sorry episode stinks and should be investigated by the authorities councillers my a---e. disgraceful!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- joseph (29th Aug 2015 - 14:50:15)

I still think that the grant from Hampshire County Council is TaX payers money. Shauna is not one of the Willows owners nor is she a parish councillor. Unless there is a signed agreement nothing is set in stone or binding, negotiations go wrong for all kinds of reasons, and nothing gets signed.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- dave mc grath (29th Aug 2015 - 15:40:52)

What grant? As i understand it they were paying a rent and offered to fund the upgrade. .Havn't you been following the thread joseph what ever your name is? The issue here is that they and other private nurseries are providing a service to the community that the council does not provide, and should! At a price of course, these places do not run themselves! The other issue here also is, that it seems that the parish council /trustees led the willows 'up the garden' seemingly knowing that there was a hidden agenda to demolish the building! Why not be straight with them from the start? Next we will have a big developer sniffing around to build on the rec! Or are they already?Like i said IT STINKS!

There has been mention of a grant from EHDC towards the cost of renovation work.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- ann (1st Sep 2015 - 20:08:54)

Any news on willows nursery ?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Natalie (1st Sep 2015 - 23:22:44)

Yes editor there was talk of a grant from EDHC to go towards the building renovations but only for around £10k. For renovations. To save the Beacon building for the community. Not for the Willows to pocket. They were investing £30k plus of their own money to renovate the building so Dawn & Sheila stop trying to turn things around. You are in the minority. Doesn't matter how much you try to bad mouth the Willows. It isn't going to work. Some of the parish council and trustees have acted appallingly over the eviction of the Willows. Not to mention the fact that they want to demolish a perfectly good building for no apparent reason. At the taxpayers expense. I rather my taxes go towards helping provide educational facilities than demolishing a building for nothing!!!!






Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (2nd Sep 2015 - 09:37:50)

Natalie, I have not at any point bad mouthed the Willow staff, or doubted that it was a great nursery that children and parents loved. I have NEVER done that.

I am talking ONLY about the fact that the wooden shed that was built as a temporary structure and expected to last 20 or 30 years. It is now 75 years old and at the end of it’s life. It has had money thrown at it year after year but it gets to a point when nature must take it’s course. £10k would not go near it.

The structural survey was very clear that the only way to remedy the numerous faults would be to knock it down and start again. It is therefore disingenuous to say that the PC have ‘no apparent reason’ and it is highly disingenuous to call it a ‘perfectly good building’ when it is anything but. Having received this report (particularly that the whole floor liable to fail) there was no insurance cover. This remains the case as far as I know.

Also, (correct me if I’m wrong) it was my understanding that the business owners would only put their money in if they got a long-term business/commercial lease? This cannot happen in a Trust or Charity property because 100’s of years of Trust law and Charity Law prohibit it (not because the PC are being horrid).

I repeat. I have nothing against any child, parent or business owner and have never doubted the popularity of the Willows.

Just because someone does not acquiesce it does not mean they hate you, or are trying to ‘bad mouth’ you – it just means that they have a different opinion than you. You think a perfectly good building is going to be demolished for no good reason – I for example having read the report thoroughly think it is a cold, damp, mouldy, rotting, bug infested building with crumbling floors that is not fit to store boxes in – let alone precious children.

If the business owners want to invest in a new property, that would be great for the village as they are clearly popular service providers – but they need to do it in a safe structure that is fit for purpose. If they have 30k to splash out I am sure they can find a premises locally.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- K (2nd Sep 2015 - 10:17:07)

Well said Dawn , it's about time people listened to the actual facts!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (2nd Sep 2015 - 10:44:17)

FACT: funds were in place from the owner's of the Willow School and a Grant, the PC/Trustees AGREED to the request for a 7 year Lease to protect this investment.

The PC/Trustees instructed their Solicitors to draw up a Lease to be mutually agreed.

I ask the same question again to blow away the irrelevant arguments about floors, roof, insurance etc that were being resolved: WHAT CHANGED?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (2nd Sep 2015 - 13:44:56)

Dawn, Shauna in her latest post has asked a very simple and straightforward question. She states that:

"Funds were in place from the owner's of the Willow School and a Grant, the PC/Trustees AGREED to the request for a 7 year Lease to protect this investment.

The PC/Trustees instructed their Solicitors to draw up a Lease to be mutually agreed."

She has asked "What changed?"

You clearly know a great deal about this judging from the length and context of your posts on so would you please be kind enough to respond to her question. Incidentally she has asked this question before, but it has been ignored.


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (2nd Sep 2015 - 17:40:14)

My guess would be that the solicitors understand Charity Law and the Law of Trusts. Whereas laymen do not.
This is just a guess on my part however.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (2nd Sep 2015 - 18:56:47)

In reply to ann (29th Aug 2015 00:32:40)

I left the Parish Council just as this was all erupting, but made my view perfectly clear - there is only so much wood preservative you can paint on a damp bit of wood before it crumbles. If it is not safe it should be closed with immediate effect as you cannot detach your liability in an injury claim if you are negligent.

Ann - you state that "the council knows there is not a lot wrong with this building". The Parish Councillors are not structural engineers or qualified surveyors. All they can do is ask professionals to investigate and when they get back a professional report - this is WHAT THEY KNOW. The report is WHAT THEY KNOW.

Can you image the drubbing the PC would get if they got this report, ignored it, and a child fell through the floor?! You'd all be up in arms that they didn't close the building then wouldn't you?

Ann - it seems you are implying that I had something to do with this decision? Is this the case? Please answer

.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (3rd Sep 2015 - 07:57:24)

Dawn, The PC/Trustees instructed their solicitors to draw up a lease on the Beacon Buildings for the Tenants, i.e. The Willow School in January. They advised the Willows School that it was all in hand in July, then on receipt of the draft Lease realised that the Lease was between the PC and The Willows, the PC do not own the building so it would not be possible to proceed. I am hoping that the PC have not paid these solicitors who took 7 months to produce a useless document - no due diligence there.
The next step was to look into Charity Law regarding a Lease for 7 years - Charity Law requires any Lease for a long term to be put out to tender - THIS COULD BE DONE
Charity Law would require a change to the Deeds to allow Nursery Education - THIS COULD BE DONE.
The PC/Trustees were willing to allow the refurbishment to go ahead, there are two obstacles which they didn't anticipate (one could argue this was negligence on their part), these obstacles can be overcome.
Once again I am asking WHAT CHANGED?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (3rd Sep 2015 - 14:01:23)

Your post dated 2nd September does not answer Shauna's question so she has repeated it in her post dated 3rd September. On this subject your posts are generally the longest and most detailed in spite of the fact that you say that you left the parish council when this matter was beginning to erupt - you must be getting your information from somewhere and yet you seemingly cannot answer a perfectly simple and straightforward question.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (3rd Sep 2015 - 14:22:28)

My latest post on 3 September was responding to Dawn's post and I quote:

"My guess would be that the solicitors understand Charity Law and the Law of Trusts. Whereas laymen do not. This is just a guess on my part however."

Just wanted to be clear as Dawn has posted more than once on 2 September.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- The Joy (3rd Sep 2015 - 20:58:19)

there is only so much wood preservative you can paint on a damp bit of wood before it crumbles - Dawn

If you are in the know? Which I doubt. The refurbishment work is to include new shiplap timber surround to all exterior walls, so why the wood preservative lol

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- joseph (3rd Sep 2015 - 22:30:18)

Shiplack Timber? isnt that what is used for garden sheds? No wonder the quote for refurb was over 30k? Really good for heat retention, (not) how would you insulate the building? Would that really ensure the structure lasts another 75 years?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (4th Sep 2015 - 13:26:56)

Dawn you still haven't answered Shauna's question which was WHAT CHANGED? If you don't know why not say so although it seems unlikely that you don't know as you appear, in your posts, to be very knowledgeable about The Beacons Building and The Willows.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (4th Sep 2015 - 16:32:12)

Shauna, have you had any reply from Councillor Croucher to your questions. The only reason I ask is because I have just heard that there is a Councillor/Trustees meeting this coming Monday 7th September. You should e-mail Councillor Croucher and remind him that you are still awaiting answers.

There should be no reason why they cannot give you the answers after their meeting. But they are like a secret sect and wouldn't dream of announcing the meeting and inviting questions. That would be far too much to expect and they would probably lie like they did over the quotes/estimates for the demotion of the building which was witnessed by everyone.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- K (4th Sep 2015 - 17:27:11)

I think this repeated request of WHAT CHANGED has already been answered by the reports in The Herald. This is what the paper said a few weeks ago -

"the trustees were going to give The Willows a lease - which was passed on to the parish council's legal advisors in April....
the sole charitable object of the charity is allowing recreation on the Recreation Ground and in order to allow The Willows, which is a private business, a long lease for the Beacon building and to be compliant with the objects of the trust - competitive bids would have to be obtained, a tender process would have to be observed and all requests would have to be considered to determine what is best for the trust."

The report went on to say "this was only discovered in July which meant it was too late to go through the process, thus making the building uninsurable and the decision was taken for it to be demolished"

So it sounds like 'what changed' was that the council didn't know this until July and by then it was too late to go through a tender process in order to get the nursery school up and running in September. If the council had gone down the route of tendering, who is to say that The Willows would have won the tender process? A local sports club could easily have tendered and more likely won as they would have fitted the object of the trust.

But The Willows are going to be opening at the Millennium Centre so what's all the fuss about now? Surely what everyone wanted was for the nursery school to be saved and it has been.

If everyone here is supporting The Willows then they should be pleased it's been sorted out. And, I don't see The Willows staff on here saying that there's still a problem.

Also, as a council taxpayer I wouldn't want to be paying over the odds for a building that is on its last legs - even if the work is done to patch it up now, it sounds from the survey report that there is going to be ongoing expensive maintenance. Sounds like the council have made a decision that is in the best interests of the whole community not just a select few.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (5th Sep 2015 - 12:38:48)

K

First of all let me start by saying that I am very glad to learn from your post that The Willows Nursery has apparently been relocated to the Millenium Centre. If that is indeed the case then of course the owners/staff are not going to be commenting on this site. That is rather stating the obvious. However I had heard previously that before they were relocated they were very wary about posting anything for fear of jeopardising their chances of the Council finding them alternative premises. This may or may not be true but in any event there would be very little to be gained by them joining in. They all knew the situation they were in.

Referring now to your second paragraph. The Herald will print what is it told and in this case this it would be what the PC/Trustees told them. The issue now is not just about The Willows – it is about this council and its perceived, by some, of its insensitive handling of delicate and emotional situations of which The Willows is one. Added to this there is wealth of feeling among some parishioners that the council do not always act in a democratic and transparent way, nor always in the interests of their electorate.

I for one, cannot believe that, having let the Beacons Building to The Willows Nursery for fourteen and a half years, it has only just come to light that it can only be used for recreational and not educational purposes. From the outset the whole matter has been badly handled beginning with the very short eviction notice given to The Willows last year which was then compounded by a debacle of a parish council meeting which followed where people were not allowed to speak (I was present) and finishing with the latest meeting this August (I was not present) where apparently among other things there was almost a "punch up" between a councillor and a member of the public.

You say that as a council taxpayer you would not be wanting to pay over the odds for a building that is "on its last legs" your words not mine. I am not going to dispute the condition of the building as I have not seen the surveyor's report, but I would say that from what I have read and been told over the last few years, in my opinion this council have done a very good job by themselves in spending taxpayers money most unwisely.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- The Joy (5th Sep 2015 - 16:03:42)

Joseph please make sure you don't fall off you high horse, the building would be insulated to modern standards under the shiplap. Shiplap timber comes in many forms, slaps head.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (5th Sep 2015 - 16:55:28)

K
The Willows Nursery School have been given TEMPORARY use of the Canada Room at the Millenium Centre, until December 2015. It is in the minutes.
The PC/Trustees are trying to broker a deal with the Scout and Guides to give a longer Lease for the Willows School to use their hall.
The PC are effectively the Landlords of the said hall and being used for Nursery Education and sub-let would need a change to the Charity Deeds.. does this sound familiar? Couldn't be done for the Rec Charity according to the PC/Trustees.....
As for the Tender - if a recreational club were to offer the same money for refurbishment as the Willows School has to make the Beacon Building safe, fit for purpose and insurable, then I would be all for it, the building would be preserved for the community.
There would be no cost to the PC as the repairs were being funded by the Willows School and an EHDC Grant.
The cost to the PC will be demolishing the building

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (7th Sep 2015 - 15:08:58)

Val - I am getting my information from reading the surveyors report which has been on-line for everyone to read for a very long time. I beliEve there is a link to it on this thread. If you haven't read it by now - you should.

That is the only information you need.

I am not on the Council so directing questions to me about their decisions is pointless. I have answered the question by guessing that the laws of both Trust and Charity are involved. Also that even if they weren't you cannot have a long-term private business lease on a community building - which I understand was the condition that the business laid down if they were to put any funds into the project.

The surveyors report makes it quite clear that the structural wood, floors etc are not safe. A bit of shiplap on the outside will do nothing to remedy this.

p.s. still waiting to hear from Ann.

Read the report.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Katwacker (7th Sep 2015 - 18:10:36)

FACT 1 The building was being insured by the Willows, and therefore was insurable
FACT 2 The building could be repaired, the builders scheduled, and the work was due to start, all planned prior to the Willows being told to go in late July
FACT 3 The insurance company would insure the building after those repairs had been completed
FACT 4 The building was going to be used by the Willows again
FACT 5 No report says the building should be demolished
FACT 6 The deeds could have been changed, and were not, and the current deed published on the Parish Council website makes no reference to buildings
FACT 7 The Parish Councillors were communicating and meeting with the Willows up to 27th July, not the Trustees
FACT 8 The Parish Councillors/Trustees have not provided basic information to the public, as reported on this website, and also at the meeting 10th August
FACT 9 At the meeting on 10th August Councillors were extremely rude to members of the public, and one lady councillor had to go outside and make sure there wasn’t a punch up between Councillor Croucher and a member of the public
FACT 10 The Parish Council consists of both Laymen and Laywomen and not just laymen.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- The Joy (7th Sep 2015 - 18:36:00)

We all know shiplap and insulate was only one of the jobs Dawn. Yawn

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- val (7th Sep 2015 - 20:38:00)

Dawn

Thank ;you for your post. I have tried to find the surveyor's report on The Beacons unsuccessfully. Please could you post the link so that I and others can read the report.

Many thanks.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (7th Sep 2015 - 20:51:07)

Hi Katwacker I am interested to hear that you thought the building was being insured by the Willows – I do not have faith that any insurance company IF THEY HAD BEEN PROVIDED WITH THE SURVEYORS REPORT would continue to insure the building for young children to play in.

As you state that these are facts – I wonder if you would oblige and provide the evidence that they did indeed provide their insurers with the actual condition of the building

The surveyors reports states CLEARLY that the only way to be rid of all the serious defects (ie rotten wooden floor supports, wood worm, damp rot etc) would be to demolish it and rebuild the whole structure again.

If you have not read this report – then you should do so before you state again that there is no such report.

I would be very happy to listen to a separate professional opinion if perhaps The Willows were to undertake such a survey – but not that of laymen with no structural engineering qualifications. It is not worth the risk of the young lives that will be playing in it. The precautionary principle tells us to avoid such risks.

Agreed that IF the structure was completely made safe, then insurance COULD be obtained – however I was under the impression that the funds would only be provided if the business was given a long-term business lease on the building?

Again I would like to make it clear that I have nothing against the Willows team, I just feel strongly that if professionals have examined the building then they are the ones to be believed.

It has nothing to do with the lack of nursery provision in the village, we are simply talking about the logistics of propping up a 75year old wooden shed. You must try to take your emotions out of such important decisions.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (7th Sep 2015 - 20:56:36)

Hi Val
Simply click the link to the left (Parish Council) and scroll down a couple of inches to see the Pavilion Building Survey Report

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (8th Sep 2015 - 10:38:39)

FACT 11

The survey report says:

38.1 ……“it will be difficult to eliminate inherent defects and shortcomings without virtually complete reconstruction”

38.6 “ We recommend specialist reports, recommendations and estimates should be obtained with a summary of anticipated costs before a decision is taken to demolish or repair the structure”

(This first statement does not say the building should be demolished, and the second statement is the only time the word demolish is used in the report…..and where are the specialist reports, and estimates published on which the decisions were made?)

PS Sorry everyone, when replying on this thread I typed in the details on the form incorrectly

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (8th Sep 2015 - 14:24:21)

Dawn
I find some of your postings a bit disingenuous - you know that a 7 year lease to protect the investment is what the Willows School and the Parish Council agreed to, until it took the PC's solicitors 6 months to draw up a draft lease, and then the PC realised they were not the Landlords!!!
The Trustees could still do this if the Lease was put out to tender. All these FACTS have been posted on here previously!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (8th Sep 2015 - 17:30:49)

Dawn,

You are wrong. Again. The Willows did have insurance. You stated that you are not bad mouthing the Willows. Yet trying to make out they were operating without insurance is definitely doing that. Plus you keep going on about the grant, as if it's going into the Willows business instead of the renovations. That's out of order.

You clearly don't know all the facts, which has been highlighted on this thread several times. You don't even live in Liphook or care what happens to the Willows or the Beacon building so why do you keep posting on here?

The facts are the Willows did have insurance. Which you can get confirmed by one of your old councillor friends. As they contacted the Willows insurance company directly, behind the Willows back. Obviously looking for another route to get them out.

Then if you look back over the thread. For a lot of the community. Me included. It's not just about saving the Willows. We want the Beacon building to stay.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Bob (8th Sep 2015 - 20:10:54)

Beth, it's you who are wrong I'm afraid. At the public meeting the councillors said that The Willows insurance company hadn't been given the survey when they took out their insurance policy. That's why the insurance company sent out a surveyor straight away after the council phoned them. They apparently said that they would only insure it once all the work in the survey was done. That means, if something had happened before then, their insurance wouldn't have covered it.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- RML builders (9th Sep 2015 - 00:01:32)

Work that needed to be done, to make the surveyors happy was completed. The building was said to be safe for the children to return, until this summer when everything that needed to be repaired was going to be done and completed. This work would have made the building totally safe for 50 plus years!

But this back stabing council have got other plans! I still can't see how putting 15 more car parking spaces in, is a sports activity, that money would pay for the willows repairs 2 times over!

CROUCHER and yr cronies need to resign! Yr well past yr sell by date!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Bob (9th Sep 2015 - 08:43:52)

RML Builders - who actually said that the building was safe to return last summer? You, as the builder who did the work? Really?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Shauna (9th Sep 2015 - 09:25:30)

Bob, I would not believe everything you hear at a PC Meeting:
Question from Member of the Public to the Cllrs/Trustees "Have you obtained a quote for the demolition of the Beacon Building?"
Answer from Cllr Croucher: "no", echo from another Cllr "Yes"........ mmm
Seems they have a quote, but it was obtained by Gavin Scott "unofficially", not in his capacity as a Cllr or representative of the Council. Oh dear, more smoke and mirrors

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- joseph (9th Sep 2015 - 10:29:26)

The building which I saw on TV did not look as is anything had been touched at all the wood was rotting the windowframes disintegrating and looked appalling? How much did you charge the Willows for that RML builders? Did a qualified surveyor come and sign off your work?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (9th Sep 2015 - 14:13:53)

Maybe the people who are unhappy with the Parish Council over the Beacon Building issue could comment on Trevor Maroney's "Parish Plan" (link on this website) to ask for discussion for provision of Nursery Care to be included? Nursery Care or extra parking and mention of a Boules Pitch in the Recreation Ground... just a thought to continue to register our disquiet on any platform available.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (9th Sep 2015 - 18:19:20)

In reply to bobs post [[ Bob (8th Sep 2015 20:10:54) ]]

I did not know this - as I have not been to any meetings for a long time.
Did you hear this first hand?

If it was in public questions it might not be in the minutes but I will try to look for it (if you think you heard it in the main part of the meeting).

I was asking the previous poster to clarify and give evidence as she said it was a FACT that they had provided the survey and therefore had insurance - but it sounds like my first fears may have some basis. The survey was very clear about the not allowing any further jumping or moving around on the whole floor area - this along with the structural damage doesn't bear thinking about if there was no insurance in place.

I just want to find out the facts here without getting emotional about it - or being accused of anything.

Please can you confirm when you heard this Bob

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Alan Jones (10th Sep 2015 - 12:38:47)

Dawn

To be fair re moving about - the surveyor said the staff should be encouraged not to move a piano - pianos are by their nature very heavy - big difference between the weight of a piano and the weight of a 3 or 4 year old child

The same re jumping up and down, I have no idea how well built (no pun intended) the surveyor was but lets say he was around 90-100kg in weight - that again is a very big difference to a three or four year old. I know we in the UK have a child obesity issue but I don't yet think we've reached the stage where toddlers weigh 100kg (roughly 15 stone in old money)

I've read the report several times and unless I'm going blind, nowhere in the report does it say the only option is to demolish. If you can point me to a precise page/paragraph number I would be grateful since you have repeatedly said it CLEARLY says this is the only option.

On the point of insurance, the building is an 'asset' of the relevant charity - leaving the Willows to one side, surely the trustees are neglecting their core duty of protecting the assets of the charity if they were not themselves ensuring that the building was adequately insured.

Rather like rotting wood, the whole saga has a distinctly bad smell...

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (10th Sep 2015 - 16:35:34)

Hi Alan,

The report says the only way to resolve/remedy the numerous problems and get the structure to a point where it was deemed safe by today's building standards would be to rebuild from scratch. Those are my words.

I will read through it again and find a page / para reference for it.

Great that someone apart from me has read the report from last year - I wish everyone had read it a year ago instead of just the business owners.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (10th Sep 2015 - 18:06:28)

Surveyors report. Précis of the pertinent points with para numbers. I am not an expert and do not pretend to understand the ramifications of the report -(although I know what rot means) I am just putting it here so perhaps others will read it. To read it in full go the Parish Council link [just left below local MP] and it is about the fourth item down.

38.6 specialist reports & estimates should be obtained before deciding whether to demolish or repair.

38.5 buildings this old and of this type will involve significantly more onerous maintenance and repair….inherent shortcomings in its design and use of materials will remain despite the continued repairs and further hidden defects could come to light.

38.4 the building is of a substandard construction with poor design principles………….no comment is made of hidden bits of it.

38.1 it will be difficult to eliminate inherent defects and shortcomings without virtually complete reconstruction.

26.3 damp wood with decay and woodworm attack are identified in numerous areas

23.8 fixings to the skirting are rusty due to damp

20.5 wc’s and kitchen have damp floors

20.4 floor in the passageway is flexing and vibrating. In view of the inherent damp problems and lack of ventilation it is likely that the hidden joinery is deteriorating.

20.3 floor to the ‘west store’ is damp with insects and snails

20.2 floor to the ‘east store’ is damp

20.1 floor in the nursery itself; this is an ongoing issue with decay of the substructure and the surface; when jumping the floor flexes as the supporting timbers are decaying; in some areas it went from springiness to sponginess and here localised weight could puncture the floor and cause injury; until the floor is made good they may not move heavy items or equipment over the floor and may not permit any activities which involve jumping such as gymnastics or dancing. Ongoing deterioration is inevitable and if it is not replaced during the Autumn term then a very cares assessment should be made before allowing re-entry. The insurance company should be informed.

19.9 walls - Kitchen. Damp

19.7 walls - rear lobby. Wall boarding has rotted away due to damp, remaining surfaces lined with plasterboard with old damp staining.

18.1Ceilings, artex probably has asbestos in it

15.8 tennis store area – timber outer frame and sills are rotten

15.6 door at south end – rotted at the base

15.4 door to tennis store rotted at the base

15.3 Door to the west – rot to the framing

15.2 door to the nursery rot to the timber and the frame has splintered at the base.

15.1Doors to the east – vandalised and split above letterbox and rotted base and sill.

13 5 the lack of ventilation combined with old, failing or non-existent damp proofing lead to damp conditions on which the floor structure will be vulnerable to decay and attack by wood boring insects. This is clearly the case in this instance.

11.8 Walls. South elevation – single brick thickness prone to condensation, damp penetration and instability, fine horizontal cracking from lintel movement

11.7 Walls. Centre south elevation boards are loose, splintered or twisted

11.6 Walls. Northern elevation – cladding lose and rotten and frame shown signs of notable rot.

11.5 Walls. Tennis store elevation – base boards are rotten and other localised deterioration the trim is loose and rotten.

11.4 Walls. North facing elevation – boards are loose with notable rot

11.3 Walls. West elevation – the central stanchion [F] has notable rot of the base, Stanchion [G] has notable softening. Baseboards are missing and it can be seen that the frame behind has rotted.

11.2 Walls. North elevation – notable deterioration of the board and timber frame, stanchion [C] has rotted from the base, stanchion [E] concrete sub post has cracked and settled leaving a notable gap, base boards BC and CD and DE need replacing, the greater part of wall BE leans outwards perceptibly removal to the original inside was has allowed the roof structure to spread outwards and to stop this the roof void will have to be strengthened’

9.11 Roof. Signs of previous water leakage, notable defects to the felt cladding’ mice droppings clearly visible and the type and age of the building indicate vermin and bats are likely to be present

9.9 Roof. Secondary roof void area is partly falling away and has various section of loose flooring and the ceiling joists are not suitable for anything apart light storage

9.6 Roof. There are areas with required immediate attention where obvious sings of imminent failure are apparent. Care required as the roof cannot take the weight of anything other than felt.




Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Deb (11th Sep 2015 - 01:28:22)

Think everyone is missing the point here
Simple isn't it the new building having a nursery built too with this sô called drop in centre
Solves everyone's problems then doesn't it

My poor child not even started a nursery as of yet because of all this
So wrong so wrong !!!!!!!!!

Hoping he starts the willows soon

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (11th Sep 2015 - 07:12:03)

So poorly constructed. Built to last 20-30years. Lasted 75years. Seems like a good investment to me.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (11th Sep 2015 - 11:25:41)

I am so confused as I cannot find any mention of a 'new' building on any official documents.
Where has this information come from - can anyone tell me please.
I see on this thread quite a few times about someone building a new drop-in centre - but this is not a Council proposal is it - I can't find it anywhere. Who has proposed to build and pay for this please.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (11th Sep 2015 - 12:31:03)

Dawn

Lots of paragraphs from the survey report (which I had read) but not one of them answers the question which Alan Jones asked you.

If you want evidence about the insurance you should ask your ex council cronies. I am sure they will oblige you but nobody else as seen at the meeting which you did not attend. They probably wont tell you about their amazement on learning that there was insurance. Or a much better idea would be for you to ask the Willows themselves, straight from the horse's mouth, rather than you getting yourself all confused and bothered on this thread.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (11th Sep 2015 - 14:01:22)

for KAT only
I take it you don't know the answer to my question then Kat? Just thought you'd throw sh**t about as usual!! You are usually the first to jump right in where misinformation is concerned - but not when it's spread by your pals????

I did answer BTW - put your glasses on!

Apart from dealing with trolls like you (who have ONLY ever been hideously rude to Parish Councillors who give up their time to serve your community- yet are not brave enough to go to meetings, use your real name or identify yourself in anyway) I am courteous and polite and answer anything put to me in the most informed way I can. Even when I was a Councillor (and you behaved on here like a complete tw*t) I never responded in kind as stooping to your troll-like level was too much of a waste of my energy and you are not important enough to deserve any of my limited energy.

I still have a limited supply of energy and have no intention on wasting any further on you. Go and troll someone else and then write it up in The Herald WHOEVER YOU ARE.

Please ignore this message if you are not Kat (& I am sorry if it offended you).


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- debbie (11th Sep 2015 - 14:44:27)

Well that's what I had heard ages ago !!!!! From some Liphook residents :)
So I don't know but it's not rocket science is it to build another building and build a nursery within that :)
That will make everyone happy and then that's fair
The willows can carry on :) . And the community will gain another nursery school which we all need here !!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (11th Sep 2015 - 15:24:44)

Debbie, Hi there, who did you hear it from and who is supposedly planning, paying for it etc. Was the private business paying to build it?. I am trying to get to the bottom of where this originated from - it seems it may just be a rumour. thanks. Dawn.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Sheila (11th Sep 2015 - 15:52:29)

That would be a bit unfair Debbie on other nurseries and businesses, it's as good as saying the councils are responsible for unfortunate businesses that have had to close, surely it is down to the willows to source their own premises, everyone else has to ! I have read the report a number of times and as sad as it is that the beacons has to close its doors, it really does not read that it is a suitable place for children on a daily basis ! And if something was erected with a nursery, I would like to think anybody with a business plan could put in a tender for it as well, because let's face it, it would be a very profitable business ! Just saying !

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (11th Sep 2015 - 19:03:46)

Dawn

Which is the paragraph that says that the only option was to demolish the building or that the building should be demolished? I am afraid that you have still not answered that question.

They did have insurance, but speak to the Willows about the details then you will get the correct information. Who are these pals?

I am sure that reasonable people would find your comment that I "have behaved on here like a complete tw*t", particularly the use of that specific word, is not the sort of language that should be used on this site. I would just say again, that I am nothing to do with the Herald, or anything connected with them, despite the continued pedaling of statements from you that imply otherwise.

If you had read the Bramshott & Liphook Parish Plan Action Plan you would have seen the proposal for a Multi Purpose Drop in Centre at section 23.20. The references against it were 11.58, 12.50, 20.63. It was a High priority. The building was needed by 2019 when the Peak Centre lease expires. The lead is Liphook Development Board, Parish Council, and EHDC. Funding of at least £1.5m was required from several charitable sources and agencies and the Parish Council had the monitoring responsibility.

You wanted information so I have provided it for you. It is not misinformation, not guesswork, not tittle tattle, not gossip, not made up, not a conspiracy theory. It is FACT, as evidenced on the Parish Plan website although the latest version has taken out the funding figure. So please don't shoot me as the messenger or be rude to me, thank you.

ps BTW, I think "sh**t" should be "sh*t" or perhaps you didn't have your glasses on.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (11th Sep 2015 - 20:15:29)

Dawn you weren't at the last meeting were you? When Councillor Croucher almost had a punch up with a member of the public. Now your on here abusing Kat. Really unnecessary and uncalled comments in my opinion. Is it any wonder councillors are getting such a bad name with behaviour like that. Your true colours have shown through. Well done.

Why don't you just answer the question you were asked? Instead of trying to deflect it.


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Tittle tattle (12th Sep 2015 - 07:20:19)

Who's to say the lease at the Peak Centre will not be extended? Anyone asked the landlord? Seems to me some in the council want to spend a fortune on a building that may not be needed. Why not utilise the Millennium centre more efficiently? After all that's costing a fortune to run I believe.

Dawn, you disappoint me with your rant. You may not agree with Kat but no need for that.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- liz (12th Sep 2015 - 10:30:59)

Kat you seem to spend s lot of time reading council minutes? I do not recall ever seeing the Parish Plan ever discussed or voted on by the parish council. Surely, if they endorsed it 100 per cent it would be in there on the minutes? The Parish Plan is not run by the Parish Council? It has I think a few councillors involved but it is a seperate thing? It is purely a wish list as I see it not official?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (12th Sep 2015 - 13:47:19)

Heartily agree with two of the previous posts from Tittle Tattle and Beth with regard to Dawn Hoskins' post slagging off Kat. Dawn has in the past criticised others for their intemperate language and I found the remarks in her latest post offensive and unnecessary. She may not like what Kat says, but she is not doing herself any favours or the council on which she was previously a councillor and which she appears to still robustly support, by posting nasty and unnecessary remarks.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (13th Sep 2015 - 07:02:22)

Sheila
The issue is getting very muddled, you are right that the Trustees/PC are under no obligation to support a commercial enterprise.
Put simply, the Beacon Building as an asset of the Charity can be preserved for the Community. A Lease MUST be put out to tender and any organisation whose activities fall within the aims of the Charity (these can be changed to include nursery provision) and who have the funds available to renovate and make fit for purpose can come forward and be considered.
It really is that simple................... but the only people with the power to make it happen are the Trustees

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Sheila (14th Sep 2015 - 08:11:36)

Shauna

I have not got anything muddled here, as this thread and posts are about saving a building for the willows to use for their business, I understand what you are saying Shauna about changing the usage to include nursery care and anyone can put in a tender if they have funds to repair the building, but why would someone want to pay for repairs on a building, and not just patched up ! to still have to pay rent on it, because they won\'t own the building, and surely it would still need to be available for the public to use for recreational use, and for such a cheap rent, much cheaper than the millennium hall, Bohunt etc !

So I do wonder whether this all about saving The Beacons, the building or The Willows, the business !!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (14th Sep 2015 - 23:42:04)

Many people want the Willows saved. Many people want to save the Beacon building. The Willows are willing to spend the money to renovate and save this building, why isn't this happening? This could potentially secure the Beacon building for the community for a further 75yrs+

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Keven (23rd Sep 2015 - 18:34:54)

The council are up to something, they asked councillor Gavin to leave the meeting about the willows nursery, because they said he had a involvement to save the building, so what are this council hidding,
People on the council you are supposed to do what the Liphook people want!!!! Not what you want. Remember it's our money not yours!!!!! If you can finance to make the car park larger in the rec. You can pay for the building to be saved!!!! Is it not yr jobs to look at using bikes, walking ect. Not encourage them to drive!!!! Help save the world and the willows, by not having a bigger car park

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Debbie (24th Sep 2015 - 10:46:46)

Yes what is going on with the space ? Is it going to be built on ?

I for one will be driving to the new nursery place
And so will other mummy's so more cars driving through the village. I certainly will not be walking with my child no way

See being at the rec we could walk to and from or we could walk in afternoon and take car in morning
So nope I will not be walking ever My child couldn't manage that walk

Such a shame we loved walking to the nursery . Children were safe getting in and out the cars .

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Alan Jones (24th Sep 2015 - 12:45:48)

If the other councilors did ask Cllr Gavin to leave because he had a pecuniary interest then they have broken the law. It is up to the individual councilor to decide whether they should leave the room or not, not the other councilors. They may have advised him that if he did not leave he could leave himself open to prosecution if it was later discovered that he had a pecuniary (i.e. monetary) interest in the issue being discussed, but that decision should be his, and his alone.

The exact wording is

Councillors are reminded of their responsibility to declare any pecuniary interest which they may have in any item of business on the agenda no later than when that item is reached. Unless dispensation had been granted, you may not participate in any discussion of, or vote on, or discharge any function related to any matter in which you have a pecuniary interest as defined by regulations made by the Secretary of State under the Localism Act 2011. You must withdraw from the room when the meeting discusses and votes on the matter.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- D (24th Sep 2015 - 14:43:47)

Does this also apply to "back handers" ?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (24th Sep 2015 - 17:46:13)

I am not quite sure from Keven's post and subsequently Alan Jones's post whether Cllr Gavin was asked to leave but did not do so, or whether he was asked to leave, refused and was then forced to do so.

Alan Jones is quite right when he states that it is up to the individual to declare a pecuniary interest and he (Cllr Gavin) along with all members present would have been reminded of their responsibility to declare any pecuniary interest which they may have in any item of business on the agenda no later than when that item is reached. If Cllr Gavin did not declare a pecuniary interest and insisted on staying because he felt he did not have a pecuniary interest, the other councillors would be able to draw up a complaint against him at a later date. If he was forced to withdraw yes the law would have been broken and Cllr Gavin could take an action against the Council

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Keven (24th Sep 2015 - 20:02:18)

Councilor Gavin has no gain in the willows being kept open, he just believes the building should be saved, remember he spoke with the the gentlemen that done the report on the building, so councillor Gavin knows there is not that much work to get the building up and running. It's time this bunch of self centered councillors resigned.
Also the stand in manager for the millennium centre, is now telling everyone she is the new manager for good, it's against the law not to advertise the job!!! So a totally fix so they have a puppet on a string. Hope this lady has to make the £50000 a year target like they set Mr Gavin, or this will be discrimination!!!! Can't wait to see the accounts. Also Mr Gavin asked if he could discount the room hire money, he was told there was no way he could!!!! This new manager has been told she can discount the cost of the hall hire!!!! So why can they treat Mr Gavin one way and the puppet manager different????

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Jane Ives (24th Sep 2015 - 23:45:49)

As the chair of the LMC committee I would just like to say that Karen Feeney is on a maternity cover contract for 12 months, which finishes around April next year.

Also, we are delighted that the committee recently agreed to offer discounts on our standard hall hire charges allowing Karen to offer discounts for children's events and parties and we can also now offer regular user discounts for those users who have been with us for a long time. We continue to offer community discount of 15% for local, voluntary organisations.

We have also recently agreed to give regular users free use of the facility for one annual event so this will benefit organisations such as the U3A, BLACS and similar.

The Herald ran a report a few weeks ago highlighting these discounts and also reporting on new events that will be coming soon like children's and family cinema and also Film and Food evenings for adults.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Grant (25th Sep 2015 - 00:19:52)

Hi Keven, was this at the recent council meeeting? I cannot see anything about the building on the agenda? was this at the August Council meeting?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Keven (25th Sep 2015 - 11:02:05)

It was that meeting there was not even any paperwork done, they called it a open meeting, so not one word said was recorded, only a few of the councillors acting like god!!!! The lady that now says she is the manager of the millennium centre, was covering a secretary's job not the managers job!!!!!! So this is not true what this councillor is saying, another cover up to fiddle what they want, as the old saying go's when it suits. The discounting is number 3 on the list that you accused Mr now councillor Gavin of doing to get people in the millennium centre, now yr giving a discount to try to get people in. This council need to go they follow CROUCHER like lost little children!!!!! They've do what CROUCHER and Gerrard say like puppets on a string!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (25th Sep 2015 - 11:27:49)

I but repeat my question - was Cllr Gavin forced to leave the meeting when this item was discussed? That is really important and I am surprised Cllr Ives didn't include the answer in her post as she is a councillor and more than likely would have been at the meeting. If she wasn't I am sure she would have been informed. It is really frustrating when posters ask a seemingly straightforward and simple question and they just get ignored. As a regular reader of Liphook Talkback this seems to happen frequently.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Steve (25th Sep 2015 - 12:26:11)

Councilor Gavin was asked to leave the meeting, I bumped into him in the car park the night of the meeting. Asked why the other councillors were still in haskell center,
He was in shock and said he was asked to leave the meeting because he had a interest of trying to save the willows nursery school building. They really have to get this council out!!!! They only ever do what they want, not the people of Liphook wishes!!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Jane Ives (25th Sep 2015 - 14:59:08)

As a parish councillor there are rules and regulations that we have to abide by and I take that very seriously. I have commented because a member of staff has not been represented fairly and I wanted to put the record straight and provide the facts - and I can assure 'Keven' this is a fact.

I also felt as the chair of the LMC committee I am able to comment on discounts offered at the LMC which have been reported by The Herald and were also in the latest issue of the Liphook Community Magazine. If there is any doubt about when these discounts were agreed, they are recorded in the minutes of the meeting held on 4th June 2015 which are on the parish council website and the information is all provided there. Any discount offered prior to this date could only have been offered with agreement by the committee and this would also be minuted. If it is minuted then it was authorised; if it isn't minuted then it was not.

I hope this clarifies that particular issue but please contact me, or Karen Feeney at the LMC, if you would like further clarification on the discounts now offered.

With regards conduct of an individual councillor, to comment on a public forum such as this would be incorrect and not the way any council would do its business. It would equally not be right for me to comment about the conduct of any other councillor. If anyone wishes to write to a councillor with a question, or come along to a meeting to ask their question, they are perfectly at liberty to do so. I am always happy to answer questions raised by members of the public.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Steve (25th Sep 2015 - 15:56:18)

No the council just do what they want behind closed doors, the Liphook council are a joke. Even some of the Petersfield council works think you all have lost the plot!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Alan Jones (25th Sep 2015 - 18:01:18)

Jane

I can fully understand you not wishing to discuss the conduct of another councillor on a public forum, but I think the fundamental question regarding Cllr Gavin is not a question of individual conduct, merely a straightforward question of fact - was he told/forced to leave by the other councilors present. A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

I have to chuckle at your comment that the discounts were included in a press feature in the Herald. I've lost count of the number of times that Liphook PC Councillors have told us we can''t believe a word we read in the Herald (except it seems when the news is positive) --- or am I getting more cynical in my old age?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Grant (25th Sep 2015 - 18:27:07)

I was told about the open meeting by someone who was there, I am presumimg you are talking about the one before the recreation meeting, about the Willows, they certainly would have mentioned it if a councillor was ejected from the room? He said that the reporter from the Herald was there. I am sure if that had happened then, it would have been reported in the paper and on this website by the other members of the public who were there?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Steve (1st Oct 2015 - 12:24:41)

Not sure if they take the willows nursery away the shed next to it will fall down, that looks in a bad repair!!!! Something else this council has not spent money on!!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- M Green (2nd Oct 2015 - 09:51:42)

I think the plan is to demolish it all. So Councillor Croucher can build his drop in centre for him and his friends.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (6th Oct 2015 - 09:05:38)

So the agenda for the LMC meeting on 17th September has just been sneaked onto the Council website. There was a Willows update on the agenda and none of us knew about it.

The agenda was not there before or after the meeting date, nor was it shown on the council home page either. Who was responsible for that? So how could people have gone to a meeting and asked questions when they didn't even know it was going ahead or what was being discussed.

Oh sorry, forgot, they would not have answered questions about the Willows because it is for the Trustees to answer and not the Councillors who are the Trustees anyway LOL.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Jane Ives (6th Oct 2015 - 13:00:25)

Mr Groves, the agenda was published correctly in advance of the meeting. The press were certainly there and indeed there was a report on the front page of last week's Herald which references a decision made at the meeting regarding cinema ticket pricing.


Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Keven (6th Oct 2015 - 13:54:39)

Mrs Ives I think yr as bad as CROUCHER and JERRARD, you should pack yr bags and go from the council!!!!
Yr advertising for a job in the millennium centre, that you said Karen was covering, so more bull s@@t from you!!!!! Why are you advertising for a full time deputy to Mr Stanley, when he is a part time clerk.
You remember Mrs Ives you don't do What you want!!!! Your job is to do what the Liphook want. At the moment most of you councillors are acting as if yr gods!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Kat (6th Oct 2015 - 13:54:44)

The agenda was not on the Council website. I did not read the Liphook Herald, I did not know the press was there. Sorry, but not interested in ticket pricing. So no answer to the question, as expected.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Jane Ives (6th Oct 2015 - 15:40:01)

Mr Locke I work very hard for the council putting in countless hours and I won't be bullied online by you. Hiding behind false names is no excuse for trolling people and I'm sure most people are very bored by your rhetoric.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Robin Lock (6th Oct 2015 - 17:18:11)

Ives you better get yr facts right or you will find yourself in court!!!! I will say what I have to say in my name!!!! And Kevin is totally right Liphook council are a waste of time, it's yr way or no way

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Frances White (6th Oct 2015 - 18:56:36)

Perhaps posters on this site should bear in mind that the Parish Councillors do a voluntary job putting in many hours on a generally thankless task.

Would some of you speak face to face with Jane Ives in the same way that you have written about her here. I think it is rude in the extreme when most of you criticise but haven't the inclination to put your names forward for the Parish Council. Much more fun to criticise others anonymously. Shame on you.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Keven (6th Oct 2015 - 19:18:36)

Told you Robin what she was like, if you want to take her to court I will be very happy to attend, to prove her wrong!!!!
so much work for her and the stand in manager, that the manager dose all her home delivery from Sainsbury's ect on the office computer. Carnival stuff ect , and the story goes they are getting someone that's going to be helping her and Mr Stanley. So they are paying out for more office staff to sit on their bums doing very little!!! I hear people that do the hard work get their ours cut to help pay for the new office person.
We don't need more staff. You need someone like Mr Groves that could run it all mostly on his own.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Frances White (6th Oct 2015 - 20:41:42)

Well what a nasty viscous posting. You anti-Parish Councillors are certainly showing yourselves in your true colours.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Steve Wilson (6th Oct 2015 - 22:02:50)

These so called councilors don't care about what Liphook wants, Mrs Ives are you trying to cost Liphook tax payers more money by accusing of a guy of being someone else, Mr Groves and the old manager of the millennium Hall all over again. You councillors can't do anything without putting yr brain into Gear before opening yr mouths. How many £1000's have you cost the Liphook tax Payers so far???? This village is far to big for you lot to run now. Put Petersfield back in charge!!!! Someone that knows what they are doing!!!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- elizabeth (6th Oct 2015 - 22:38:28)

This thread is getting nasty and accusations flying all around. Time to get a sense of perspective back, as having Parish Councillors who are unpaid are actually no cost to the taxpayer, the decisions they make may be unpopular, but then as the previous poster says they put themselves forward only to be verbally torn apart.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Jane Ives (7th Oct 2015 - 00:04:04)

Keven and Robin, you write in a very similar way and share very similar opinions, so it was an easy assumption to make. Apologies if I am incorrect.

I think it very wrong however, and I am compelled to say this, that you\'re threatening me with court action when you yourselves have posted some very vicious statements about other parish councillors and staff members. You have never met me or spoken to me, yet you are willing to threaten me here.

I would be very happy to meet with either of you to discuss the issues you have with the Millennium Centre and to answer any questions. I can hopefully put your minds at rest about some of the misinformation you have. Or do please come along to one of our LMC committee meetings, which neither of you have ever attended since I have been on the committee, where you can ask questions in the public session.

If you wish to contact me please do so at jives68@gmail.com

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Steve Wilson (8th Oct 2015 - 23:32:23)

Mrs Ives you and most of the other councillors won't help the willows nursery school to stay in that building!!! You say it got to be for sports activities. So taking away grass for the kids to play on to build a 15 place car park. How is this anything to do with sports. Please answer on her so the rest of Liphook can find out the answer.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Jane Ives (10th Oct 2015 - 09:27:33)

Steve, there is no plan to extend the car park. That's not to say car parking hasn't been discussed (please see the minutes of the Rec committee meetings) as there are problems at times with the number of cars that park there for football matches etc.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that there is a plan for 15 more spaces. Perhaps come along to the next recreation committee meeting as I know you haven't attended any to date.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Steve (10th Oct 2015 - 18:16:38)

I was at the meeting were you said to stop people parking on the top bank behind the kids play area. There needed to be a 15 car extra parking

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Sarah Allen (11th Oct 2015 - 20:15:55)

You should have let the Willows stay. Might as well do the right thing get the usage changed so they can move back into the Beacons. Nothing you can do with Bats living there. They're protected. You'll be breaking the law if you demolish that building now.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Deb (12th Oct 2015 - 12:07:21)

Yes I agree completely agree
Let the willows stay and refurb the nursery
Change the deeds that's what we been saying all the time
Only wish that change there minds these people

Carpark was adequate to get our children in and out the car safely
No busy road to get them out on
And a lovely green to walk our children through to get to the nursery yet again no busy roads :))
Perfect place but no people had to spoil it for others

I do not agree to be taking a education provision away !!!!
It's just not right !!!! Even if it will open up some other place wasn't right in the first place !!!

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Sarah Allen (12th Oct 2015 - 15:52:44)

Well they can't do anything all the time the bats are living there. Looks like their plans for extra parking spaces or a drop in centre will have to wait now, lol.

Bet Croucher and Jerrard are pleased with themselves by managing to get the Willows out after all. Hasn't done them or the rest of the councillors any favours. Made them look extremely bad.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Deb (16th Oct 2015 - 09:44:53)

Brilliant nursery I for one would like to see it back where it belongs. So would my husband.

Can we not even do a public vote here to see whom would like the nursery provision to stay where it is ? Plus there are bats there do why doesn't the nursery get the go ahead ?

Please please to the people that are wanting to go ahead with not letting the willows back. Please re consider please !!!! A perfect place for the willows to stay in there own location !!!!!
Please

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- SG (16th Oct 2015 - 10:31:59)

Do you actually have any hard evidence of bats? You can't just assume they are there.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (16th Oct 2015 - 10:36:42)

you don't need a vote - you need a SAFE building for your children which is INSURABLE.

The shed was damp, cold, rotting and uninsured. Not because it was neglected (it was maintained as well as a wooden shed could have been - hence it's longevity), but because it was a temporary structure built like any normal garden shed - with a lifespan of 20 years.

Nurseries are private businesses and I am sure that a wise person with a business proposal will fill this gap.

Taxpayers have paid to extend the life of the shed for many years, but it reaches a point when preservative and paint is just not enough anymore. 70 years later - the only way to eradicate the problems which all old sheds have - is to completely rebuild (which necessarily involves knocking it down in order to start again). If that were to happen - there is no way 'building standards' would allow a wooden shed of the same calibre to replace it. It would have to be brick-built with all mod-cons ££££££

When you say you want the children to return to the original place, are you saying:
a) taxpayers should pay to build a purpose built nursery in the same spot on the field, for a private business to run? or
b) you think children should go back into the dilapidated and uninsured shed?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Beth (16th Oct 2015 - 14:34:09)

Dawn, seriously what is your problem? If the Willows were able to stay, they would have renovated the building and then it would have been safe and insurable. You know this so why do you continue to spout your negative nonsense on here? Your not a builder or surveyor, didn't you used to be a councillor? but you aren't anymore, how does this building or nursery provision effect you in anyway? Before you start on about the small grant from EDHC to help with renovations cost. Don't forget the cost to demolish the building. Only a complete idiot would rather see their tax money used to demolish a building that could be saved and used to provide nursery provision for our growing community.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Val (16th Oct 2015 - 15:48:29)

Dawn

The Willows had been leasing The Beacons for 14 years!! It didn't suddenly fall into the dire disrepair, you would have us believe overnight, so why did L&BP suddenly decide to evict The Willows with so little notice. That is what really started all this beginning with the badly run meeting on 27 October, 2014 which I did attend. So much has been said about that so there is no need to repeat anything. All I will say is that at that meeting the ONLY reason given for the eviction of The Willows was the condition of the building. Nothing was said about the fact that it should only be used for recreational purposes not educational ones. If the Trustees/Councillors did not know this then they should have done and if they did know they kept very quiet about it. Either way you can hardly blame people for being suspicious when the hurdle re: the condition of the building seemed be overcome by the owners of The Willows willing to undertake the repair work, the Trustees/Councillor suddenly produce – surprise! surprise! another reason why The Beacons cannot be leased to The Willows.

The irony of it all is that if The Beacons building really is housing bats it cannot be demolished because as we all know, bats are a protected species. I suggest someone in authority ie The Trustees/Councillors find out if there are bats there or not.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (17th Oct 2015 - 11:39:16)

Dear Beth and Val,

I do not have a problem, I am not being emotional about the subject or making personal comments about anyone. So no problem here.

IF the building had been completely re-built by The Willows, then yes Beth you are correct in that the building would then have been insurable. You are correct that I am not a surveyor – but this is the professional opinion made by the surveyor based on the findings he made on inspection of the shed.
Are you saying then that the whole surveyors report is negative nonsense – or only me when I tell you what it said?

Yes, I did used to be a Parish Councillor. At the time we saw that the building was not safe – I gave the Parish Council advice [which they did not take] that if the building continued to be leased when it is a known safety risk - then the Parish Council would be negligent and completely liable if any child was injured. Also, all insurance will be invalidated until The Willows submitted the report to their insurers, who must then agree to its continued in the condition stated: ie: no jumping on the floors, dancing, gymnastics etc etc. It was my opinion that it should have an immediate stop notice placed upon it for the two reasons stated. This did not happen and in my opinion this left children at risk and uninsured for the next year.

If a building has become a risk, then the Council are completely liable for any damage to any person that occurs as a result. The building hasn’t gone rotten deliberately to spite The Willows, neither did is fall into disrepair overnight. In the past 70 years the risk has been managed by continued wood preservation, but there gets a point in time when the tipping point is reached and the risk outweighs the benefit. Sadly, that point is now.

It is not ‘being negative’ to look at the facts and make decisions based on those facts. To my knowledge, The Willows management were going to ‘patch up’ rather than rebuild which is what the surveyor stated was the only way to eradicate all the safety issues.

In relation to the differentiation between a normal structure or one owned under charity law and the law of Trusts. In all my time as a Parish Councillor I was not made aware that we had any Trust or Charity buildings. That is an inexcusable error for the legal officer to have made. I imagine that upon finally locating the Trust Instrument and Deeds which had been missing for a decade, that most of the other Councillors were also surprised to learn of this news. Either way, this fact was only discovered AFTER the original concerns were raised in relation to the recommendations of the survey.

I know nothing of bats or whether they are a rumour or really there. Either way – if the building is a risk then it is the Council who are responsible. If it fell on your head tomorrow you would all be very quick to blame the Council for keeping it open and risking the health and safety of parishioners.

I ask again to those calling to continue to send their children there to answer the questions: are they expecting the Parish Council to completely rebuild OR are they proposing to send their children into the original structure?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Ann (18th Oct 2015 - 18:42:13)

Sounds like "amateur night" to me Dawn and I do hope;you are not going to blame the previous clerk as the present one has been in situ for, what is it? about 4 years?

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Deb (20th Oct 2015 - 23:44:05)

My child has started the willows and is loving it
Congratulations to them ladies they have the willows back and running
So important as it's education in mine and my husbands eyes
So congratulations are in order for the three woman that run it to perfection
Didn't want my child going anywhere else as my child was settled with them and even though my child went alittle backwards whilst he didn't go to a nursery his fine now :) took him 20 mins to get bavk into it but he did and all is well . Loves it

Thank you willows teachers keep up the good work :)))))) 👍👍😀😀

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Shauna (21st Oct 2015 - 15:12:20)

Dawn - nobody ever suggested that the Parish Council paid for the repairs to the Beacon Building, the Willows Nursery or any other party that made the winning bid for the 7 year lease when it went to tender would have carried out and paid for the refurbishment.
However, the Parish Council/Trustees decided not to change the articles of the Charity and put the lease up for tender and now the Parish Council as Trustees will have to pay the £10k for the demolition, or rather the Liphook residents will....

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Dawn Hoskins (21st Oct 2015 - 15:44:13)

Shauna. My point is that the Parish Council have been (for 70 years) & by default the local taxpayers have been paying to preserve the life of the shed. Which has been very successful as evidenced by the longevity of the building.

Unless you know otherwise (please tell me if you do) the professionals stated that the only way to make it safe from all the defects was to start again from scratch & rebuild. No one, not The Willows or EHDC has offered the funds to do this. The Willows (unless you know otherwise please tell me if you do) were planning to do what the Parish Council have been doing for 70 years and try to put a sticking plaster on a terminal illness.

A rebuild is not a refurbishment. The grant would NOT have covered the cost of a new brick built building which would have left the Parish tax payers to fill in the finance gap.

It is not the FAULT of any entity that the building wore out. There is no one to blame for this fact. Old age creeps up on everyone and everything.

People on here have been very quick to dismiss the survey on the building and quick therefore to dismiss the inherent danger of putting children in a rotting building.

It is easier & better for people to have a scapegoat…someone to blame…… Let us ignore what the professional report has said and blame the Parish Council instead. Let us ignore the fact that (unless you have proof to the contrary – please scan it in and show us if you do) that those precious little children were not insured for an entire year and could have fallen through the floor.

Even if Charity law and the law of Trusts did not exist, which prohibits a business use - which was only discovered when the deeds were eventually retrieved (after being lost when The Willows took over the building) – even if the use was not prohibited there would still be no-one prepared to pay the cost of constructing a new building.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- shauna (21st Oct 2015 - 16:35:59)

Dawn - were you still on the Council when they agreed to the Willows Nursery refurbishing over the 2015 summer holidays? I must assume that they saw and approved the bill of works that were to be carried out. The PC only changed their minds when it came to light that they were not the Landlord, but the Trustees were. This was a long time after the surveyors report, so the PC at the time must have been confident that the building was to be refurbished to high enough spec for them to continue to rent it out

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- roo (21st Oct 2015 - 16:47:56)

Just a thought if the willows nursery were prepared to pay for the renovations or repairs to the beacon building, could this not be used towards the cost of the replacement building with parents of the children and local trades supplying labour and materials being donated.
And also as the building has to be demolish is this not a feasible solution to both problems and also provide the willows with a new home

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Scott (21st Oct 2015 - 17:15:20)

this idea would effectively means that the Willows nursery would own the new building outright, by paying for a new building it would give them legal rights over the building itself as would a 7 year lease. The whole recreation ground could then be given over to business use? There are plenty of businesses who would want to helped in that way.Nurseries are commercial businesses not yet part of statutory education.

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- roo (21st Oct 2015 - 18:45:54)

scott you miss understood the suggestion. but as you say willows would have a stake in the ownership of the building but wouldn't this be the case on the old building as they would have of paid for the repairs. this was just a suggestion to help both parties

Re: The Willows Nursery School
- Finchie (22nd Oct 2015 - 00:28:59)

Bingo ! How insightful. Finally, I understand how this farce was accelerated ! It's late now but will do my usual weekend post :-)

Cheers, Finchie

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