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Parish Councillors - Dawn Hoskins (28th Apr 2015 - 12:54:53) Some people have levels of disinterest are so extreme that they have NEVER been to a Parish Council Meeting to see which Councillors are contributing their time to which projects. They have NEVER taken the time to read meeting minutes to see which Councillors propose which items on the agenda and how they were voted upon by others. In a period of 4 years, they have NEVER met, emailed or talked to a Parish Councillor to know what they stand for. In a period of 4 years, they don't know if councillors are male or female. People would rather pick up and believe salacious gossip without choosing to find out the truth, then laughably ask a reason for the existence of their Parish Councillors? You've had 4 years to interact with these people who give their time free of charge (and despite views to the contrary have never moaned on here about it being a thankless task) they are available to you, free of charge every day of the week. It is so odd to me that those with no interest would moan on here that they don't know what Parish Councillors have done for the village - when they haven't taken the time to pay attention to them for 4 years. Of approx 8,000 voters in this Parish, (the largest in E.H.D.C.) about 6 people attend Parish Council meetings. SIX. How the other 7,994 people in this Parish know what is going on I do not know - particularly when this site is full of 'ringers' posting deliberate antagonism using false identities. Parish taxpayers must pay for elections (the charge laid down by EHDC is approx £8,000) but it is unlikely there will be an election of Parish Councillors this year, as local people were so disinterested that for the 12 places required - not enough people came forward. There is a co-option process where Councillors who know of interested persons can put them forward as a candidate. Although this is cheap (free actually), it does mean that the co-opted Councillors are not democratically elected. I urge interested parties to make themselves known to the Parish Office a.s.a.p. If there are more than 12 objections to the co-option process, an election will be called. The problem is - we still need more than 12 people to volunteer for there to be an election - and it would seem that in the biggest ward in East Hampshire, we have the most disinterested residents. Too busy/not bothered to come for meetings, too busy/not bothered to meet Councillors, 80% are too busy to even vote. Then to add insult to injury just 0.0001% choose to post rumour and gossip, mostly with no foundation at all, which gets passed off as the truth? and no one can challenge it, apart from Councillors, as no-one else has any knowledge due to their own absence/disinterest ! Apart from Parish Councillors there are about 6 'regulars' that know what goes on - and I have never seen any of those 6 'regulars post here. What can be done to make residents of this Parish engage with the Parish Council? What? What would you like to see them do other than arrange weekly and monthly meetings to which you are all invited to - as this clearly is not working. Please - tell us if you know how to enthuse our Parishioners.

Re: Parish Councillors - S (28th Apr 2015 - 14:18:42) Dawn, Personally, what I think is more laughable is your post. Oh my gosh! Some people have NEVER been to a Parish Council Meeting! What EXTREME apathy! Your entire post is just one big moan about how awful and apathetic the public in Liphook are - but if everyone was really so disinterested, do you think they would spend time 'gossiping' about the Parish Council? I think the real problem is that the Parish Council has behaved very badly at some points in the last few years - you can't deny that, as it is well known.... And whenever the public has taken time to turn out at meetings, the Parish Council hasn't gone the extra mile to address their concerns. Rather than berating everyone who isn't a Parish Councillor and then asking what can be done to change this, the council needs to try a drastically different approach and take some action to gain back the trust of its Parishioners. I am not surprised that no one wants to stand for Council this year - I don't think it is a sign of disinterest. I for one am interested, but I would never put my name to something with such a bad reputation and have my name dragged through the mud, as I think has happened to some current councillors who I'm sure had no involvement with any of the controversy within the council in the past years. And whose behalf are you posting on? I was under the impression that you were no longer a part of the Parish Council, but your final line "Please - tell us if you know how to enthuse our Parishioners." seems to suggest you are still involved? To be honest, it would probably be beneficial to the Parish Council's PR if you refrained from posting ill-thought-through outbursts so often!

Re: Parish Councillors - Shauna (28th Apr 2015 - 14:19:08) I have been to several meetings, and I have been shown "the hand of Croucher", when I wanted to make a comment, he told the meeting it was a legal requirement to allow no more than 30 minutes for Public Participation, on researching this, it is at the "discretion of the Chairman". not really encouraging me to come again to try to engage.

Re: Parish Councillors - Keith (28th Apr 2015 - 14:55:13) Dawn I would agree with the sentiment of your post if not it's content, for example you might want to check your figures - these were the figures in 2011 (the last full election for the Parish Council) Electorate: 6615 Ballot Papers Issued: 2956 Turnout: 44.69% (Figures obtained from EHDC) So rather more than the percentages you allude to.

Re: Parish Councillors - A. Ryan (28th Apr 2015 - 15:06:23) Dawn, Perhaps it is not lack of interest in standing for council but the fear that you will be sucked into what we are lead to believe are dodgy dealings. It seems for years there has been trouble within the Council and it does not seem to improve. Who are the good guys and who are not? Surely if the Council is run well one would assume that there is no need for hoards of people turning up to meetings. We should be able to trust them with good decision making. If you have noticed, when more people turn up there is usually a crucial decision to be made which invariably angers residents as the Council get it wrong. You say it is a "thankless task", why do you need thanking? If you want to be on the Council should you not be there for the love of your village. Are some there for the prestige of it, then shame on them. Why does one feel the need to be a lawyer , banker or some equally educated person to hob nob with Council? Meetings should be less formal, residents should be listened to and ideas taken on board, not told you have two minutes then told to sit down. It would appear from my perspective that some Councillors are there too help there own. I have respect for certain EHDC Councillors but that is about it.

Re: Parish Councillors - Dawn Hoskins (28th Apr 2015 - 15:17:07) I am posting as a parishioner and voter. Explaining that we have a pitiful level of true interest in what the Parish councillors do and a large amount of interest, gossip and unnecessary slagging off. I am asking for ways to engage - not for a faceful of abuse by a nameless poster. If you are going to insult me at least be brave enough to let me know who you are.

Re: Parish Councillors - Jane Ives (28th Apr 2015 - 15:48:09) S, you make some interesting comments. I cannot speak on behalf of other councillors or the council as a whole, these are just my personal views. Yes you're right councillors have had their names dragged through the mud and it isn't always a comfortable place to be, but holding any sort of public office you have to accept the rough with the smooth. The very things that we are being criticised for currently are the very things we can't discuss as they are confidential under employment law. We do have to protect the rights of individual staff members past and present. I've been a councillor for just over 2 years and I am standing again despite much negativity being posted here at times. Out of the 11 existing councillors only 7 are staying on so that gives other people a good opportunity to put their names forward so that they can make a difference. Out of that 7, 3 of us are relative newbies having been co-opted in December 2012. So change has and will continue to happen and I think that's a very good thing. The past cannot be changed but the future can be. I've said this before but say it again, I really would be very happy to hear from anyone who has a genuine interest in finding out more about what's involved. You are correct that Dawn Hoskins does not have any involvement in the parish council at all now and therefore any comments she makes are her own personal views. Shauna, you make comment regarding meetings and if I remember correctly you were at the Willows meeting late last year with about 50 other members of the public. Yes, public participation sessions are time limited but are at the discretion of the chairman. I would say though that the message was delivered loud and clear at that meeting just by the sheer numbers of people that turned out. The problem was we had a very full agenda we had to get through and our meetings are time limited so the public session had to be kept relatively brief. It was really unfortunate that expectations weren't better managed and I for one learnt a lesson that evening. The parish council does get a bad press and perhaps it would be useful to let people know the good stuff we are doing and I can assure you there is a lot. As we are not having an election, potential parish councillors did not get to publish their manifestos and therefore nobody has a clue what individuals are all about. Part of mine was to try and engage with the public in ways other than at meetings. That is something I intend to see through. If anyone does want to get in touch my email address is jives68@gmail.com.

Re: Parish Councillors - baz (28th Apr 2015 - 16:10:58) LOL. Dawn gets an immediate anonymous reply slagging off the council and her. How funny when she just wrote about the anonymous few who post simply to belittle - that the immediate negative acrimonious reply was from a coward hiding behind a computer.

Re: Parish Councillors - D (28th Apr 2015 - 16:26:53) I think you will find that the PC is run in accordance with "The Law "according to Croucher".

Re: Parish Councillors - S (28th Apr 2015 - 17:41:48) baz, You won't find any posts from me regarding the intricacies of any of the latest accusations against the council's behaviour. I make no accusations as I do not know the truth of what has or hasn't been going on. I also disagree with the posting of crazy rumours without any proof and think it would be better to wait for the facts to emerge - which as Jane points out, is not currently possible due to the legality of the situation. I see no problem with the use of acronyms, posting one's full name indiscriminately around the internet means that anyone can access a lot of information about you at the click of a button which is too invasive for my liking. In any case, I am not known to anyone reading - my full name is irrelevant. 'baz' is also a fairly ambiguous name to post under, slightly hypocritical, you could be anyone! I just think that Dawn's post itself was quite accusatory and belittling to Parishioners who actually do take an interest but feel there's no point in engaging. I was not slagging off the council - it's a fact that it has had problems and I was just making a suggestion as to why they are struggling for new recruits. I'm sorry if Dawn felt insulted by my comments, but over the years of posting on this forum prior to entering the council, I know that Dawn is no stranger to offending people on this website herself!

Re: Parish Councillors - Shauna (28th Apr 2015 - 19:20:13) I did attend the meeting that was dealing with the Willows Nursery issue, I have attended several others. I have also received, as requested, the minutes of the "closed meeting" session when the issue of the Willows school was raised and the actions of the Council were decided (I think this was sent to me in error as it was not open to the public or press) there was nothing discussed that was an issue of HR, wages, contractors tenders etc, that would have warranted a "closed session", this is my big issue with the current Council. Please feel free to look back into the minutes and correct me........ I would also like Mr Croucher to explain why he presented the Public participation as set in stone for a 30 minute session when it clearly was not. Just asking for clarity and an opportunity to feel that we can participate in meetings and our views be heard, recorded and even acted on?

Re: Parish Councillors - Peter Richardson (28th Apr 2015 - 19:32:55) Baz - and you are not hiding behind a computer - how hypocritical can you get? I agree wholeheartedly with the posts by S, Shauna and A Ryan.

Re: Parish Councillors - Rob (28th Apr 2015 - 19:33:11) This council are a law under them self's, I would love to say well done, but the willows nursery, Tony Groves, the exmanager of the millennium Hall, Mr Gavin, and we're is all the money you promised £90000 to revamp the millennium Hall up. What have you spent £4/5000, what happened to the other £85000????

Re: Parish Councillors - Jane Ives (28th Apr 2015 - 20:33:00) Rob, there is nothing hidden about the spends on the LMC. As I explained at the Annual Parish meeting held in March, the council are nearing the VAT threshold for local authorities. This means that if we go over that amount we have to start paying VAT, which also means charging VAT. We have been reluctant to take that step as I'm sure you can appreciate so towards the end of the financial year (end of March) we put a stop to spend. Here is the report in full which was posted on the parish council website following the meeting (pages 7-9) 150323-APM-Minutes.pdf

Re: Parish Councillors - Peter Richardson (29th Apr 2015 - 11:09:35) Jane I don't think Rob is saying necessarily that there is secrecy. It is the amounts of money this parish council have spent in the past few years that he is questioning and I quote a few examples: SW19 Solicitors and Barrister. Approx. 100 hours work over 8 months. £21,840. Note, includes approx 1/5 to the barrister for his Initial Legal Opinion. Mrs Karen Hill: Investigation a7 Full Report. £4,640 19th July 2012 £2,435 17th September 2012 £2,205 Ms Julia Homan: Investigatory Review & Disciplinary Hearing. £4,405 £2,700 on 2nd October 2012. £1,705 on 15th Jan 2013 This was taxpayers money and I feel could be better spent in improving facilities in Liphook - who authorised the councillors to spend such large sums and can the spending of such really ever be justified? He also asks where is the money now that was allocated to revamp the Millennium Hall? It is commendable that you are attempting to answer questions, but you don't seem to be able to answer the most important question. Why were such large sums of money spent and can they ever be justified? I think this is why people don't go to the Parish Office or attend meetings - their questions are never answered - they are fobbed off with "it is "sub judice" or "people's reputations must be protected." Sounds like one big smokescreen.

Re: Parish Councillors - Jane Ives (29th Apr 2015 - 13:18:51) Peter, the reason I don't answer questions regarding the former clerk is that I wasn't a parish councillor at the time and therefore don't feel at all qualified to do so. This isn't a cop out, I just don't believe I can answer questions with the appropriate knowledge. I am sorry I can't tell you more. I can though repeat here something Dawn Hoskins posted on Talkback in November 2012 which may help explain: "The question re: The Clerk was the raised first to get it out of the way and the answer was not a fob off but a re-statement of the facts given thus far. The Council are in a difficult place as it would suit all of us to release everything we have – however – the law says we cannot. If we break these laws we will be on the receiving end of a law suit and we all feel that that is beyond doubt. We are not prepared to break the laws of this land and it is as simple as that." With regards the money allocated to revamp the Millennium Centre it is currently held in council reserves. How we spend this is discussed at each LMC committee meeting and approval is also sought from the Finance & Policy committee to release the appropriate funds. We have our next LMC meeting at the beginning of June and will be discussing the next steps in the refurbishment plan. If you want to see the minutes of the last meeting held on 12th March you can find them here. LMCMC-Minutes-12-03-15-draft1.pdf I would highly recommend you read them as they contain information about the work implementation plan. I hope that by publishing links to documents people will start to see that there is a lot of information on the parish council website.

Re: Parish Councillors - Peter Richardson (29th Apr 2015 - 16:08:26) Thank you Jane. I do understand that you were not a parish councillor at the time this money was spent. However there are still some councillors who were and they never ever answer questions either on this Forum or when asked directly. There is always a reason why honesty and transparency cannot prevail. No one knows why Tony Groves was dismissed even now. It is no longer subjudice and as you know the police did not think there was sufficient evidence to prosecute Tony Groves so there is still a big and unsatisfactory question mark over the whole affair. This council over the past 3 years has been very secretive having, by your own admission, far too many exempt sessions - you stated in a previous post that the audit commission had issued a warning to the council about this. There are two sitting councillors who are very manipulative and secretive and I don't need to name them to you. Everyone knows who they are. I am so sad that some of the "good and true" parish councillors are not standing again, but I don't blame them. Parish councillors give up their time for nothing and they don't need constant hassle. Dawn Hoskins has stated on this Forum that she has left the council because of treatment meted out to her by "some of her fellow councillors." That sort of says it all. Root out the weeds and the plants will flourish.

Re: Parish Councillors - Jane Ives (29th Apr 2015 - 17:36:58) Peter, Talkback isn't everyone's cup of tea as I'm sure you know and it's up to individual councillors whether they wish to post just as it is for anyone else. There should not be an expectation that questions are answered here as there is no obligation for anyone to read anything posted. As I've said before, if anyone has a question or complaint about a local business they should not expect to post here and get an answer, far better to approach the business directly. The same goes for the parish council. It really is best to go to a meeting or contact the parish office or an individual councillor. However, I do read Talkback and am happy to contribute but there are restrictions around what I can discuss here and anything I write is purely my personal opinion and should not be taken as the view of the council. My own view is that this is a method of communication that people in Liphook seem to like so I will embrace it although at times it's like jumping into the lions den!! ;-) I would far rather people used their real names. Using your real name usually means that what people say is more tempered and thought through. Equally I appreciate that some people by nature of their job or personal situation may not wish to put their name on this forum. What I do object to is people posting malicious untruths that people like myself cannot respond to ie information about a staff member. A line needs to be drawn in situations like this to protect all parties. How do we know that the comments being posted by individuals recently aren't coming from one source only? We could make a lot of assumptions that a view is widely held when in fact it's actually only held by one or two. Whatever happened 3 or 4 years ago I think we all need to move on from. It was clearly a painful past but the council needs to move on, Liphook needs to move on. For info this was the statement that was released by the parish council and read out at a meeting in November 2013 which may answer some of your questions if you haven't seen it before - Response-to-the-Liphook-Herald-Article.pdf With regards particular councillors be assured that no individual councillor can or does make decisions alone. I have a good working relationship with all my fellow councillors and I fully support and appreciate the work they do. Of course, at times there are disagreements but that's a healthy sign of democracy at work. Our internal auditor did say last year that the council had too many exempt sessions but, more importantly, we took her advice and there are now less. Her advice was mainly around the use of exempt minutes for awarding of contracts which is now done in public session. Her full report has been on the parish council website for the last year - Internal-Audit-Report-2013-14.pdf Yes I agree sadly we are losing some really good people and they will be missed, but this is also an opportunity for new people to come forward which is a really positive thing for any organisation and I don't think anyone should be afraid of standing.

Re: Parish Councillors - Keith (29th Apr 2015 - 17:39:40) Peter I'm not for one minute going to leap to the defence of BLPC but just a couple of points: You are correct that no one outside of the Parish Council and Tony Groves knows the true reason for his dismissal, but I think there are a couple of issues: I for one, were I to be dismissed from a job (which I never have been, but bear with me), I would be aghast were my former employer to broadcast on the Internet their reasons for dismissing me - just as were I to resign from a job (which I have done several times, as have most people in order to move to better positions elsewhere) - I wouldn't want any comments in my letter of resignation to be broadcast on the Internet either. So I think to ask BLPC to give those reasons on a public forum is unreasonable. Likewise Tony Groves could publish the reasons if he felt fit, but it may well be there are legal sanctions within his dismissal settlement agreement preventing him from doing so. All that being said, I have long advocated that the subsequent report into quite what went on at BLPC during the 'twilight years', and was paid for at public expense should be released in to the public domain (albeit redacted to remove the names of individuals). I really do fail to see why this could not have happened by now. On your other point of the police taking no action due to lack of evidence, I think we all need to be mindful of the difference between criminal and civil law - in criminal law, a case only succeeds if there is evidence "beyond reasonable doubt", in civil law a case succeeds on the 'balance of probability' - so while there may have been insufficient evidence of wrongdoing for a criminal case to proceed, that does not necessarily mean that there was no evidence. But again, without publication of the report into what went on in the years prior to the dismissal of Mr Groves, we will never know.

Re: Parish Councillors - Peter Richardson (30th Apr 2015 - 10:17:47) Thank you Jane Ives and Keith for your well balanced and informative posts. My own gut feeling is that these matters are not settled to everyone's satisfaction, but time will tell. With regard to Tony Groves' apparent assaults on Dawn Hoskins and Eve Hope - I am not sure what these assaults consisted of - let us hope that IF Councillor Jerrard is found guilty of his alleged assault on David Harvey that he will do the honorable thing and resign from both BLPC and Greatham Parish Council as a sitting councillor.

Re: Parish Councillors - D (30th Apr 2015 - 11:45:05) When did anyone connected with BLPC ever do the "honourable thing" unless it was for their own personal benefit?

Re: Parish Councillors - Dawn Hoskins (1st May 2015 - 13:34:25) There is no 'personal benefit' being a councillor. The role is undertaken by people willing to give their time and effort for free. No money is given, no prestige, no recompense. Just the feeling that you are giving something back. Yet again, this post which was asking for positive contribution has been hijacked by people wanting to slag people off for putting that effort in. We all know that there have been a couple of well-attended meeting, in which attendees presence was 'drummed up' by people who knew damn well that the topic concerned was not on the agenda. If you have never been to a meeting before you wouldn't know about agendas etc, but they exist and are adhered to at every meeting. At the time, councillors did spell out that beforehand the topic was not on the agenda - but still people came and wanted it to be there - then were disappointed that it wasn't - despite being told beforehand?? Why is that the Council fault? It is a sad, but true fact, that this 'ward' seems to be horrendously disengaged, despite having notices and agendas online, and on every notice board around the village and hamlets, people don't come and don't get in touch. What can be done to change this? That is what I am asking - please don't just bring up old problems - let's look to the future - how can this situation be fixed? If you are going to throw insults at me, why not email me to arrange a meeting so I can respond appropriately to you (rather than do it anonymously). purplecurly@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Parish Councillors - Val (1st May 2015 - 14:57:04) I think if we are really honest most human beings act out of self interest either wholly or in part. It is human nature - the survival instinct - scratch the surface and we are all savages. There are very few genuinely altruistic people around, but I can cope with that. What I find unacceptable is when people act out of self interest under a cloak of piety.

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